Intellectual property, characters, and the VN community

[o v e n]

I have never been one of those artists who jealously proclaim 'MY CHARACTER COPYRIGHT ME DON'T STEAL' and all shenanigans therein. I've a philosophy of open idea sharing and utilizing tropes to whatever advantage a creator can muster - if that means someone else can do better things with a character design, then so be it. I understand all the copyright licensing; I use creative commons and what good jazz therein, but still am very respectful of other artists and their property rights.

The thing is, though, that I've never been a jealous writer/illustrator/designer, but my partner in storytelling and character concept actually - surprisingly - is. This was only brought to my attention when announcing that the demo I've been coding, illustrating and accessorizing was going to be put up on the LemmaSoft forums. They confessed surprise that I was actually going to be releasing the game to people other than them (and a handful of friends whom they know share similar design interest).

I understood their surprise. First off, it's not a very nice game - horror and tragedy and adult themes - and this is a very nice community (what adult games there are trend toward 'sexy' and less toward swearing and violence). Secondly, I am making this game for fun and for personal challenge and will be releasing it under creative commons as free-to-distribute. This fact is contradictory to my partner, who thinks fun and personal challenge shouldn't be published to the greater public. They confessed anxiety to their characters and story ideas being - not in the game - but being within the reach and acknowledgement of people they consider strangers.

We've already come to an agreement to allow the characters and storylines to stand as-is, but the idea still bothers me in the back of my mind that there is even any question that the VN community (or any gaming community at all, really) would somehow 'mistreat' a character or ... I don't even know what. The professed anxiety? While they prefaced that it was KINDA insane, still it did not change the fact that my fellow author/artist was LEGITIMATELY AFRAID their character would end up in ... FanArt.

Personally, I love FanArt. Even the more popular independent VN and KN games don't get much, if any at all (as far as I've seen) and I would keel over in grateful shock if that ever happened for ANYTHING I ever wrote or drew. But there it stands, an anxiety over intellectual property being within tossing distance of other people who can also draw and write, somehow putting the character concept within danger. I've convinced my partner that there was no danger of them finding any Rule 34 of their character with a mary-sue or gary-stu in some random corner of the internet, so the situation is more or less diffused, but...

But then they countered with something that sort of stung, in saying that the stories we wrote together were MY intellectual property (they are in part theirs, too) and I could do whatever I wanted with them but that I should know they weren't going to be as enthusiastic as I was in sharing these stories with a larger audience. As much as they are reclusive is as much as I am a total show-off, especially where my friends are concerned. I'm proud of the dramas and personas we've shaped together, I'm proud of their ability to design interesting and engaging balances of personality traits to my character concepts, why WOULDN'T I be happy to show that off to other people?

Seriously, that's my question. Where does this 'creator's jealousy' come from? I've never had it, and I've seen it reduce perfectly able artists to complete toddlers in tug-of-war matches over who 'thought of what idea first' [this part I will not edit out, as I have worked on animation projects wherein perfectly grown adults who all signed a contract allowing their intellectual properties to be used under the copyright of the project team - THE TEAM, INCLUDING THEMSELVES - still turned into turtlebacks just before release]. Thankfully, my creative partner is not THAT degree of paranoid. They just worry about their character's reputation, when they aren't present to shape the every perception of the audience. Am I being too blithe? There are two issues at hand here - the 'threat' of FanArt wherein a character might be portrayed OOC - and the threat of intellectual property 'theft', wherein people who can also write and draw and code might like something from the game and use it in their next creation.

You already know how I feel, and I can go into greater detail with that if asked, but is there anybody who feels like my partner does? Struggling with insecurities of a character in the hands of a demented FanArtist? Or the very real fear of intellectual property theft (which I've studied in terms of plagiarism in detective novels and how publishing companies let such large and obvious blunders through the cracks, all the way to the way the human brain mis-recalls long-term memory information as if it were short-term thus leading a creator to believe they came up with an idea they might have actually read years ago). I don't want this to be a 'yes well there is no REAL originality anymore' debate.

I just want to know what is even the deal with... all of this. @_@ Does anybody else ever feel reluctant in actually sharing their character and story ideas with the greater public, and if so, is there any solution beyond simply not showing that work?

[edited to read less 'arrogantly', because I'm not saying one viewpoint is better than another but am simply baffled to the point of exasperation]

[dramspringfeald]

I think it falls under assumed consent. they gave you permission to make your game with their characters and were fine with you using them. They also knew that there was a possibility of the game making it to the net. They only have cold feet this close to launch. (Not a Legal Expert but this pops up on Judy all the time)

as for the whole "Where" thing. remember some people can't separate Themselves from their characters and have made them their avatars. You wouldn't be posting their character you would be posting a bit of them. I see it all over the net especially in the furry fandom. Some of us know full well that they are characters other do not. the fan art isn't of their character it is of THEM.

[LeonGuisti]

I'm on your side of the isle. I would never in a million years balk at someone doing fan-fiction based on my work. If anything, I'd encourage it.

Although I think your partner is (for lack of a better word) crazy, I think you should have been clear about your goals from the get-go. It may seem like you didn't really have to since it was implied but minor misunderstandings like this are usually why these issues come up.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Hope your partner isn't a member of this forum. I'd be pretty pissed if I saw my team-mate slagging me off publicly.

What I read is that you are okay with something and your partner isn't comfortable with it, so they are obviously wrong, and should be ridiculed for it.

[SundownKid]

The odds are that no one will do fanart or fanfiction of your characters unless your audience grows large. And even then, they are usually positive and supportive things rather than an attempt to sabotage your work. For this reason, there is little reason to be paranoid about showing off your work as if you expect that it will instantly "blow up" onto the far corners of the internet.

However - the writer still can feel like a work would better be kept private if they're not confident to show it off. They might write simply for personal enjoyment rather than fame. So, I don't think it's a completely ridiculous viewpoint if their characters are personal avatars or whatnot. The answer in that case would be to find someone else to work with who thinks the same way as you.

[o v e n]

Hope your partner isn't a member of this forum. I'd be pretty pissed if I saw my team-mate slagging me off publicly.

What I read is that you are okay with something and your partner isn't comfortable with it, so they are obviously wrong, and should be ridiculed for it.

Ah, sorry if it came off that way. It was my creative partner who said such things as "I know this is going to sound insane, but..." and we've been openly talking about it (and I've not gone into specifics of their name, personality or even gender just in case they ever DO join the forum, since I never want to embarrass anyone). I'm just curious where the knee-jerk reaction of character protectiveness comes from, and to what degree does that start to be harmful. I can't ask them, because they tell me to 'nevermind' about it all, but there must be a reason. O.o *curious curious*

[o v e n]

I think it falls under assumed consent. they gave you permission to make your game with their characters and were fine with you using them. They also knew that there was a possibility of the game making it to the net. They only have cold feet this close to launch. (Not a Legal Expert but this pops up on Judy all the time)

as for the whole "Where" thing. remember some people can't separate Themselves from their characters and have made them their avatars. You wouldn't be posting their character you would be posting a bit of them. I see it all over the net especially in the furry fandom. Some of us know full well that they are characters other do not. the fan art isn't of their character it is of THEM.

That's a valid point. My anxiety was that they had little confidence in my writing/drawing their character in the game as somehow misrepresenting that character, but I was assured that they trust my knowledge of that character implicitly. I understand not wanting, say, someone else to be WORKING on the game with me - because then that would be a stranger handling their intellectual property rather than just a handful of strangers viewing it.

[o v e n]

I'm on your side of the isle. I would never in a million years balk at someone doing fan-fiction based on my work. If anything, I'd encourage it.

Although I think your partner is (for lack of a better word) crazy, I think you should have been clear about your goals from the get-go. It may seem like you didn't really have to since it was implied but minor misunderstandings like this are usually why these issues come up.

Indeed, it must be. My partner was okay with me previewing the game to people who were my friends but whom they still didn't know, but shied at the mention of previewing the game to people neither one of us actually know. I did not like when I was told the game was 'my intellectual property to do with as I please' because, no, it's THEIR work too. I'd have honestly used a different character out of respect for their wishes, but then there's a second layer of jealousy wherein they don't want me to do that either...?

[o v e n]

The odds are that no one will do fanart or fanfiction of your characters unless your audience grows large. And even then, they are usually positive and supportive things rather than an attempt to sabotage your work. For this reason, there is little reason to be paranoid about showing off your work as if you expect that it will instantly "blow up" onto the far corners of the internet.

This is pretty much the exact thing I told them. Their fear also ties in with 'what if it gets the attention of a big game company' or something, because then we really would have legal issues to deal with, but even then I'd want to INCLUDE my partner's intellectual property rights, even if that is not even a possible thing that is going to happen (and frankly something I never even considered, which is flattering that their confidence in the popularity of the game was so high it actually scared them, ahaha).

However - the writer still can feel like a work would better be kept private if they're not confident to show it off. They might write simply for personal enjoyment rather than fame. So, I don't think it's a completely ridiculous viewpoint if their characters are personal avatars or whatnot. The answer in that case would be to find someone else to work with who thinks the same way as you.

I will take that consideration to heart. I've offered to edit the game to their preferences, because it really is just the one character, but they don't want THAT, either. Is it by some hesitance to claim their intellectual property? I certainly wouldn't think less of them if they stood up for that viewpoint, but in offering to cater to their legitimate anxieties I've been met with a brick wall of 'nevermind, it's dumb' attitude. I'm starting to see, through asking others, that it is in fact NOT dumb and maybe they're only 'letting' me keep the game as-is out of courtesy? Or they don't want to feel left out or something?

Augh. I just... I don't want to offend anybody in releasing this demo, ESPECIALLY the only other person who more or less inspired the game in the first place. >.< *complicated complicated*

[Sapphi]

You already know how I feel, and I can go into greater detail with that if asked, but is there anybody who feels like my partner does? Struggling with insecurities of a character in the hands of a demented FanArtist?

Yes.

And it's not even the prospect of "demented" fan works that make me nervous. I would even feel nervous putting my characters in the hands of a competent and respectable fan. If I may try to analyze my own feelings, I honestly think it's just part of my overall neuroticism. I need to feel like I have control over SOMETHING in my life... I can float on the breeze and allow others to make many decisions for me in my life, but there are certain things I absolutely must keep control of to keep my sense of well-being. My creative work is one of those things. It's not that I am incapable of collaborating with others... I'd like to say that I'd be fairly lenient in a collaborative setting. But the characters I REALLY care about, the stories I REALLY want to write... I refuse to share them. I want full creative control. I like feedback and opinions from others, and I do incorporate those things into my work, but the important thing is that it is ultimately my choice to accept or discard the advice.

So I think, for me, when I am that possessive and emotional about my work, I get a knee-jerk reaction something like "OMG WHAT IF THEY DESTROY IT" whenever I think of people creating fan works. It does sound pretty crazy, and maybe I am crazy, but the fictional characters I create are very important to me because I spent time and effort on them. I also try to empathize with my characters when I write them, so I am attached to them. To see somebody take those characters and turn them into something they aren't, whether by purposeful decision or just plain sloppiness ("Noo, you don't understand! X would never say that! Y would never act that way!"), is definitely a fear that I have.

But I think how I counter that fear is like this... have you ever loved somebody so much that you lamented the fact that they would simply be a tiny drop in the ocean of humanity... that only a very tiny percent of the world population would ever even know they existed? Have you ever felt a bitter sadness when you met somebody very wonderful, who influenced you in a good way, and then thought about the fact that 200 years later, their name would simply be a cold, impersonal mass of syllables on some historical records?

To me, I think, the fact that I love my characters so much means that they must not die with me. I want other people to love them as much as I do. I want other people to love them enough to create fan works, even if sometimes they get the character a bit wrong. (Every piece of fan work, even those that hardly resemble the tone of the original, must as a rule ultimately look back to the original.) Because I think my characters are worth the effort of creating them, I want other people to understand their worth, too. And that's only going to happen if I share what I make!

As a side-note, I've noticed that my fear about this seems to be tied to how "complete" I feel the character is in my mind... when a character has not been fully-fleshed out, I am much more protective. But when I know my characters very well, I find it fun to see alternate interpretations... because no matter what other people might do with them, I still have final say on what's canon.

[dramspringfeald]

Some users just need to remember that they are a character, an independent person separate from their creator. Getting upset because someone might make fan works of their character shows they need to let that character go. They need to let them grow up and become their own and that won't happen until they can kill off their character in a fandom. Doesn't need to be permanent, hell doesn't need to happen IN the fandom but knowing you can kill the character will give them a LOT of growing room instead of becoming a Sue or Choking them out into boredom.

[Samu-kun]

Pretty much everything I make is creative commons nowadays... I don't really care about other people using my stuff, since practically everyone will understand anything featuring my characters which someone else made isn't canon. I imagine some people might even get mad if someone uses my characters which disrespects the original work, even if I don't do anything.

You're probably just going to have to make a deal with your team mate. If your team mate doesn't want the work released to the public, then you shouldn't use anything your team mate made. Also, releasing it with a restriction the work can't be appropriated by others probably won't work, since most creative works can be appropriated by people seeking to insult it. The more you appropriate another person's work to insult the original, the more the original author loses the copyright claim. So once you release a work to the public, you're just going to have to deal with the risk of another person taking your work to mock it.

Or if your team mate is just worried about someone making a porno of the characters, that's something that has a low possibility of happening too. XD (Very rare though.)

[arachni42]

I'm just curious where the knee-jerk reaction of character protectiveness comes from, and to what degree does that start to be harmful. I can't ask them, because they tell me to 'nevermind' about it all, but there must be a reason. O.o *curious curious*

I would guess that there is some general insecurity about it (fear of criticism and the like), but I've gotten the impression that it's mostly about control -- or lack thereof. I've felt both of these things, though I've always fallen on the fear-of-criticism side. Still... the Internet can be quite intimidating, and I think that it requires some level of acceptance of loss of control. I mean, even if the release is some small-time thing, there's no guarantee that some random person, five years from now, won't find the thing on Google (or whatever is popular five years from now) and do something completely unexpected and quite possibly disturbing with it.

I mean, you did mention fan art specifically, which is more immediate than "five years from now," but I think it's the same idea. Personally, I would find fan art to be a compliment (and I remain much more irrationally fearful of criticism), BUT it does cross a line where you are not in control anymore. It might not even be something specific -- the unknown (since you have lost control of it) can be really scary. From what you've described, my impression is that it is this sense of powerlessness causing the knee-jerk reaction.

However, I will certainly note that this is speculation since I don't know this person. The person may or may not know themselves, since it is an emotional reaction -- it causes them discomfort, and it's possible that they don't want to talk about it because rationally they believe it's silly. But rationality does not stop the feeling of discomfort. Again, speculation, based on my own emotional experiences that have seemed too silly to explain to anyone else.

I am sure, though, that there is a reason. And I don't believe it has much to do with intellectual property.

You mentioned feeling eager to show off -- a feeling I am somewhat envious of. If people praise your work you can feel good about the fun/joy you've given them, and ignore haters. Your friend may be the opposite -- ignoring the people who enjoy their work and focusing on haters (or fan artists with "unique" interpretations). Thus the different feelings about it.

At what point does it become harmful? Well, for a hobby project I wouldn't call it "harmful" per se, but it is inherently limiting. For a commercial project, well, yes, it would be harmful because of its limits. It sounds like you've got a pretty mature view on this whole conflict. You seem pretty accepting of this person's fears, even though it puts you in a tough spot, and you genuinely want to understand where it's coming from. I commend your curiosity! All I can say is that I hope this person is, at least in time, willing to move forward -- allowing the loss of control and the vulnerability to criticism. It's a bit of a risk, but it's the price to reap the rewards of actually putting your stuff out there. Personally, I think the best emotional strategy is to realize that if the worst happens... it's just not that big of a deal, and let go. If someone takes it and makes some weird fan art that totally twists it around and is completely offensive to your sensibilities... well, $%^# happens. It is unlikely to happen. It would suck if it happened. You'd be expected to be pissed if it happens...

But if you can accept that in the grand scheme of things, it's okay if (for whatever reason) it does happen... it gets a lot easier to deal with these fears.

Unfortunately, it's hard to reach someone who cuts you off. Again, it might be that they would feel self-conscious and silly if they tried to explain it to you. I believe the things to emphasize would be that (a) you do care about their feelings, (b) it's okay if they are irrational feelings (just because it's irrational doesn't make it silly or unimportant -- it is obviously important!!!), and (c) they are understandable feelings, and there are other people who have those feelings, too. If they're open enough to that, you could try talking about the benefits of getting stuff out there despite the discomfort. If somebody out there defiles their work... it is natural to feel personal about it, but they do not have to spend their time feeling bad about it. It has no effect on them unless they allow themselves to feel bad about it. They can spend their time thinking about more productive things. But, ultimately, they need to come to that conclusion themselves. (And, practically speaking, if you are used to worrying about things like control, it is a hard habit to break! It's just that ultimately... it is a habit.)

[Fade Lalique]

-no longer relevant-

[o v e n]

You already know how I feel, and I can go into greater detail with that if asked, but is there anybody who feels like my partner does? Struggling with insecurities of a character in the hands of a demented FanArtist?

Yes.

And it's not even the prospect of "demented" fan works that make me nervous. I would even feel nervous putting my characters in the hands of a competent and respectable fan. If I may try to analyze my own feelings, I honestly think it's just part of my overall neuroticism. I need to feel like I have control over SOMETHING in my life... I can float on the breeze and allow others to make many decisions for me in my life, but there are certain things I absolutely must keep control of to keep my sense of well-being. My creative work is one of those things. It's not that I am incapable of collaborating with others... I'd like to say that I'd be fairly lenient in a collaborative setting. But the characters I REALLY care about, the stories I REALLY want to write... I refuse to share them. I want full creative control. I like feedback and opinions from others, and I do incorporate those things into my work, but the important thing is that it is ultimately my choice to accept or discard the advice.

So I think, for me, when I am that possessive and emotional about my work, I get a knee-jerk reaction something like "OMG WHAT IF THEY DESTROY IT" whenever I think of people creating fan works. It does sound pretty crazy, and maybe I am crazy, but the fictional characters I create are very important to me because I spent time and effort on them. I also try to empathize with my characters when I write them, so I am attached to them. To see somebody take those characters and turn them into something they aren't, whether by purposeful decision or just plain sloppiness ("Noo, you don't understand! X would never say that! Y would never act that way!"), is definitely a fear that I have.

But I think how I counter that fear is like this... have you ever loved somebody so much that you lamented the fact that they would simply be a tiny drop in the ocean of humanity... that only a very tiny percent of the world population would ever even know they existed? Have you ever felt a bitter sadness when you met somebody very wonderful, who influenced you in a good way, and then thought about the fact that 200 years later, their name would simply be a cold, impersonal mass of syllables on some historical records?

To me, I think, the fact that I love my characters so much means that they must not die with me. I want other people to love them as much as I do. I want other people to love them enough to create fan works, even if sometimes they get the character a bit wrong. (Every piece of fan work, even those that hardly resemble the tone of the original, must as a rule ultimately look back to the original.) Because I think my characters are worth the effort of creating them, I want other people to understand their worth, too. And that's only going to happen if I share what I make!

As a side-note, I've noticed that my fear about this seems to be tied to how "complete" I feel the character is in my mind... when a character has not been fully-fleshed out, I am much more protective. But when I know my characters very well, I find it fun to see alternate interpretations... because no matter what other people might do with them, I still have final say on what's canon.

Thank you for that detailed explanation, and apologies on the late reply. I actually read your response and just sort of decided to respect my partner's discomfort, even if they were trying to shrug it off. I kind of want to directly quote your conclusion, because that's exactly how *I* feel, and it's amazing that you covered both points of view. And augh, thank you. ;_;

Thank you, too. That's a very detailed assessment of the situation as it stands, and I've spoken again with my creative partner after reading all of the replies in this thread. I'm afraid in this case there is an element of undiscovered anxiety that I'm now a little better educated on, even if it caught us both by surprise, that I'm going to have to respect. The control issues - that's... that's an important thing, actually, and one of the reasons why I write in the first place. The following conversation I had with the persons in question lighted on many things we'd never really thought about before - like our differences in genre writing (I'd rather have control over things that scare me than leave them lurking in corners) and why my partner objected - because they are pretty much the opposite. @_@

The good news is, I know a LOT more about a close friend that I otherwise would have taken for granted (they're usually the stronger in opinion and courage).