How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

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Tenshi1
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How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#1 Post by Tenshi1 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:50 pm

Hi,

I wish to write a scene for my VN where the two main characters make love. How detailed can I make it for it not to get an 18+ rating? I've written it in many novels before, in Sweden, but VN audience seem to be a lot more sensitive about this for some reason. Perhaps it is because there is graphics as well? I have NO intention to have anything shown though, I just want to write.

My character artist told me that just drawing nipples will make it 18+, and that it is like that in ANY anime media, everywhere. But there are nipples visible in Chobits, and that was released in a 12+/13+ year magazine here (can't remember which age it was, but it was the first one to be released), along with stuff like Love Hina. So I'm very confused...

Is Sweden an exception when it comes to this, and Chobits was actually rated 18+ in the rest of the world?

Anyway, I just need to know what's NOT acceptable to write.
Thank you in advance^^

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#2 Post by fleet » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:07 pm

I am not a lawyer.
For the United States of America, I suggest that you follow the guidelines of the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB). Here's the link http://www.esrb.org/index-js.jsp

For Europe, I suggest you go with the Pan European Game Information (PEGI) guidelines.
Here's a link. http://www.pegi.info/en/index/

Whatever you decide to rate your VN, I suggest you include a content description (such as rated M for brief nudity)
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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#3 Post by Der Tor » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:08 pm

I am from Germany and I know exactly what you mean Tenshi1.
It's not that the Visual Novel audience in general is more sensitive when it come to this topic.
It's because when you write a Visual Novel in English as opposed to writing it in German or Swedish, your audience tends to be from countries outside of Europe.

What is considered save for children differs immensely in countries outside of Europe.
Especially in the U.S. - their moral values are very different from those of Sweden or Germany.

In Germany nudity itself is not considered offensive or unsuitable for children. I remember growing up in Germany in the 80's and 90's there was a lot of nudity on television even back then (today it's even more) including nudity that included the genitals on television - even at noon or in the afternoon - sometimes even in children's programs. In children's programs you wouldn't have detailed depictions of sex that are very graphic and explicit, but you sometimes had full nudity. Because in Germany people just walking around naked isn't considered offensive if it is unrelated to sex.

This would be something unspeakable in the U.S.. Full nudity in a kid's show? No way! But people shooting others with machine guns in a kids show? No problem! So it's not that Germany has no moral standards or that the U.S. has none. It's just that their concepts of morality differ. So it really depends on what country your target audience is in. So to put it simple: If you target the European market and want to avoid an 18+ rating, it's no problem to have some people run around completely naked, but hold off on the violence and machine guns. But if you target the U.S. violence and machine guns will probably not give you an 18+ rating, however, having people run around stark naked, probably will.

And let's not even get me started on the Japanese concept of morality, because that is something yet completely different again. So you can only compare your work with Japanese stuff, if you target Japan, because their concept of morality is again completely different from Europe AND the U.S..
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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#4 Post by Jonnie91 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:54 pm

Another option you can do is create an optional choice which dictates whether you have the 18+ content shown or not. If you wanted the clean version could have some text saying:
"The doors close as they enter into the bedroom..." or have more of a suggestion of sex rather than an actually CG cut scene with sex in it. This is if sex isn't a 100% integral part of the story.
If you created two choices, the script can be pretty much identical with the exceptions of adding the full on graphics scenes, with breasts on show etc and a more younger viewers friendly version, with more subtle references.
in my view "unacceptable content" is really down to your own discretion, if when you release your game state with a well detailed warning that this VN can contain some scenes which are suitable for adults you should be okay :)

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#5 Post by LVUER » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:59 pm

We'll, each country and culture have their own okay and noes, so you can't expect all people to react just the same.

I don't know if there is nipple in Chobits or not (can't remember it) but definitely there is no nipple in Love Hina or Magister Negi Magi (or in any other Ken Akamatsu all-ages manga). Though the girls are often full nude, the important parts are always covered by conveniently placed fog or things.

Besids, what okay in Japan is different from other places. Furthermore Japan is kinda strange in adopting age rating for fan-services. So don't count on "this is okay in Japan".
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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#6 Post by gekiganwing » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:12 pm

Tenshi1, what is your intention? If your goal is to write a romantic story with characters in love and no dubious consent, think about how you would write it. I say this because your story would become rather different if you considered it to be a pornographic game.

Writing Excuses has discussed the topic of love scenes. The people involved in the discussion have written prose and comics, and one has crafted puppet shows.

The Visual Novel Database has a tag called "Text-only Sexual Content." Browsing the entries might not help you, but this is an interesting alternative to conveying intimate scenes with prose fiction. Consider whether you'll benefit from writing mild or implied sex scenes, but choosing *not* to show them on-screen.

I took a few minutes to look at Wikipedia's articles on various video game rating systems. I know each one is different, though I didn't see anything especially unusual about South Korea's Game Rating Board, Brazil's DEJUS, or Australia's ACB. But every now and then, you'll see something a bit odd. Shin Megami Tensei III got a Mature rating from the ESRB, but more mild ratings from CERO and PEGI: "B" and "12+" respectively.

Finally, remember that every person reacts to stories differently. I watched relatively mild movies growing up, and I didn't have access to any computer games for adult audiences. But then I read the alternative comic Elfquest, which had some horrible violence, genuine death scenes, mild on-screen sex, and casual nudity. It started to reshape how I thought about media and content.

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#7 Post by Destiny » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:00 am

As a hobby mangaka who draws mangas about homosexual love relationships, I have also such a trouble every time.
In Germany, nudity is ok as long as the primary organs are not visible and as long as the scene is not "arousing" (at least according to the three websites where I publish my stories).
Funny is that it isn't this simple. Sometimes my mangas were flagged adult despite having almost the same scene as a other manga that wasn't flagged, simply because the admins jusged this one as "too erotic".

It is somewhat objective and definitly difficult.
Many actually try to be on the safe spot by just showing the upper body (in europe, the breasts are fine to show, both male and female) in a obvious position with just a very clear, but short hint that they are doing "the nasty".
Maybe try to find other games that have mild sex scenes in it and see how they have done it.
I have once seen a game where you saw the background in dimmed light (like the ceiling with a bit of the window and shelf), a suggestive music and the text explaining briefly and without too much details what was going on (and it was legit, the game was open for all ages, with only a warning that it might be PG-12)
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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#8 Post by Tenshi1 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:16 pm

gekiganwing wrote:Tenshi1, what is your intention? If your goal is to write a romantic story with characters in love and no dubious consent, think about how you would write it. I say this because your story would become rather different if you considered it to be a pornographic game.

Writing Excuses has discussed the topic of love scenes. The people involved in the discussion have written prose and comics, and one has crafted puppet shows.

The Visual Novel Database has a tag called "Text-only Sexual Content." Browsing the entries might not help you, but this is an interesting alternative to conveying intimate scenes with prose fiction. Consider whether you'll benefit from writing mild or implied sex scenes, but choosing *not* to show them on-screen.

I took a few minutes to look at Wikipedia's articles on various video game rating systems. I know each one is different, though I didn't see anything especially unusual about South Korea's Game Rating Board, Brazil's DEJUS, or Australia's ACB. But every now and then, you'll see something a bit odd. Shin Megami Tensei III got a Mature rating from the ESRB, but more mild ratings from CERO and PEGI: "B" and "12+" respectively.

Finally, remember that every person reacts to stories differently. I watched relatively mild movies growing up, and I didn't have access to any computer games for adult audiences. But then I read the alternative comic Elfquest, which had some horrible violence, genuine death scenes, mild on-screen sex, and casual nudity. It started to reshape how I thought about media and content.
My intention is to show two people treating eachother with full romantic/friendship love and trust, showing the ultimate way they can achieve this... although both are very innocent/naive about it, so it could count as light comedy I guess XD. I have no intention for it to be erotic whatsoever, or even visual (aside from showing kissing on the mouth before it, both of them covered with a blanket so that there won't be any nudity). I was just wondering how detailed I can write it, like, is he allowed to touch her breasts etc. without it getting a 18+ rating at lemmasoft and gets stuck in that section. And how much am I allowed to hint what is going on?

Saying what I'm NOT allowed to write would be much simpler actually XD.

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#9 Post by Tenshi1 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:57 pm

LVUER wrote:We'll, each country and culture have their own okay and noes, so you can't expect all people to react just the same.

I don't know if there is nipple in Chobits or not (can't remember it) but definitely there is no nipple in Love Hina or Magister Negi Magi (or in any other Ken Akamatsu all-ages manga). Though the girls are often full nude, the important parts are always covered by conveniently placed fog or things.

Besids, what okay in Japan is different from other places. Furthermore Japan is kinda strange in adopting age rating for fan-services. So don't count on "this is okay in Japan".
Yes, there are definitely nipples in it lots of times, though only for Chi. I have the manga with me here xD.
It's even known as CLAMP's most risque series, I believe... He even touches her "spot" without it being shown in details >.<.

I know there aren't any nipples visible in Love Hina, I just mentioned just because people are fully nude all the time, while in suggestive poses, like you said. And it's still allowed in a magazine for someone just starting their teenages... Though I guess that's where it would be most useful ahahaha, since boys have incredibly strong sexual hormones at that point and need an outlet for it... And not everyone likes porn, I find it disgusting myself (though you'll probably not believe it, since most people who say that is lying about it) XD.

Wow, I REALLY went off-topic there, sorry! >.<

I am not thinking everyone would react the same :P, that would go strongly against my personality. I just wanted to know what the rating would be. I want it to be avalible as an all-ages VN on sites like mangagamer.com, else it would severely limit my customer base... Especially since people looking for an eroge would feel tricked and have no interest to buy it because there isn't any.
Last edited by Tenshi1 on Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#10 Post by DeletedUser160413 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:39 pm

Even being from Sweden myself, I can't really point out what I or people around me would see as r rated or adult material. I usually tend to like Yuki Yoshihara's work because it seems to be in the middle to me. She does show the upper body of both females and males in her mangas but I think its her writing that makes it rated 18+. Sometimes there will be 3 chapters in a row with no adult material (even though her adult material isnt as graphic as you would think when reading this.) And even though its rated 18+ its still not ecchi or 'hentai' but rated Josei and its more of a romantic love plot rather than anything else. I think you should read her mangas and see if you can get any inspiration because there are lots of parts that I found inspiring for my story and I didn't want it to be erotic or rated r at all.

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#11 Post by Tenshi1 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:30 pm

muniiam wrote:Even being from Sweden myself, I can't really point out what I or people around me would see as r rated or adult material. I usually tend to like Yuki Yoshihara's work because it seems to be in the middle to me. She does show the upper body of both females and males in her mangas but I think its her writing that makes it rated 18+. Sometimes there will be 3 chapters in a row with no adult material (even though her adult material isnt as graphic as you would think when reading this.) And even though its rated 18+ its still not ecchi or 'hentai' but rated Josei and its more of a romantic love plot rather than anything else. I think you should read her mangas and see if you can get any inspiration because there are lots of parts that I found inspiring for my story and I didn't want it to be erotic or rated r at all.
Are there any "making love" scenes in them? And if it's still rated 18+, that wouldn't really help, since I'm looking for ways to describe them with a 16+ rating etc. >.<

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#12 Post by DeletedUser160413 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:51 pm

Tenshi1 wrote:
muniiam wrote:Even being from Sweden myself, I can't really point out what I or people around me would see as r rated or adult material. I usually tend to like Yuki Yoshihara's work because it seems to be in the middle to me. She does show the upper body of both females and males in her mangas but I think its her writing that makes it rated 18+. Sometimes there will be 3 chapters in a row with no adult material (even though her adult material isnt as graphic as you would think when reading this.) And even though its rated 18+ its still not ecchi or 'hentai' but rated Josei and its more of a romantic love plot rather than anything else. I think you should read her mangas and see if you can get any inspiration because there are lots of parts that I found inspiring for my story and I didn't want it to be erotic or rated r at all.
Are there any "making love" scenes in them? And if it's still rated 18+, that wouldn't really help, since I'm looking for ways to describe them with a 16+ rating etc. >.<
Yes, she does tend to have a lot of love scenes in her manga but it also depends on which manga you read. So far, I've finished one (1001 nights with you) and I'm almost done with another one (Darling wa namamono ni tsuki.) I thought the first one was hilarious and I thought it leaned more towards romance and comedy than 'smut'. In the second one I feel like Yoshihara tries to keep the romance while still spicing it up a bit, and its also longer than the previous one. They're both rated 18+ in one manga website but not on a couple of others.

Also, I think you should play this game called "In your arms tonight", its on app store/android or else you can search it on youtube. Its a romantic otome game which is rated 9 or 12 and its like the perfect example if you want romance but still described pretty decently. Sorry, thats all I haha ^_^

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#13 Post by Tenshi1 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:54 am

Thanks, I'll check out that game : )

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#14 Post by Timberduck » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:30 pm

Well... when I was a youngster (9) I checked out a book that turned out to be a romance novel but very descriptive , and as luck would have it, I turned out fine, *TWITCH* . So I think ESRB does not apply to literature.

Either way Be as descriptive as you want, because your free to write about anything, no ESRB can tell you no.
+ ESRB has too much stuff to review anyways they will never have time to get to review your fantastic works.

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Re: How detailed can I write my love scene to not get 18+?

#15 Post by LVUER » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:45 pm

Timberduck wrote:Well... when I was a youngster (9) I checked out a book that turned out to be a romance novel but very descriptive , and as luck would have it, I turned out fine, *TWITCH* . So I think ESRB does not apply to literature.

Either way Be as descriptive as you want, because your free to write about anything, no ESRB can tell you no.
+ ESRB has too much stuff to review anyways they will never have time to get to review your fantastic works.
ESRB doesn't apply to literature. ESRB stands for Entertainment Software Rating Board; that means it's only apply for Entertainment Software AKA video games. And different country uses different rating (like Japan uses CERO and Europe uses PEGI and so on).

There should be a rating system/board for literature but I don't know much about it.
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