Choosing an engine -- extensibility, encryption..?

[DaFool]

I am always in JP locale... why switching back?

Because certain items, such as the Ren'Py wiki editor settings, and my printer task manager, become total gibberish, and those are important to understand

[Guest]

Has anyone made a purchase on DLsite, and how does protection work on their system?

Can I purchase a game, download it on a computer with fast internet connection, then run it with the keys on another computer?

[PyTom]

I believe that the answer to that is no. You have to download from the computer you will play it with.

Actually, I'm not 100% sure. You may be able to DL on a fast connection, and then go to their website from a computer with a slow connection to authorize that computer. I'm not 100% sure.

[Adorya]

I'd quibble the 90% - I doubt that 90% of the players of - say - the Touhou games (reasonably priced, easy for anyone into that kind of game to find for sale) own legitimate copies. But those people with legitimate copies probably do comprise 90% or more of the set of people who would ever have bought a copy. A lot of people will download illegal copies of software which they would never under any circumstances buy - either because they don't care that much about it, or because they really can't bring themselves to afford it.

Just a note about Touhou.

If you consider game owners from the whole planet, I would agree, but if you just take a look at the japan market, I think it would be the opposite.

I don't have numbers or facts, but I can bet that the next touhou game sold for 10$ at Comicket the next days (Mountain of Faith) will get instant stock rupture : it's incredibly cheap for a good game which will last for very long, and it will be "easily available for buying" for some time after the event on doujin shops, which are of course only available in Japan.

Trying to buy from the internet will cost you at least 30+ $ due to shipping cost (18$ for software, rest for shipping by Himeya for eg.) and only for a doujin game. Heck if I could go in town for a walk and buy a touhou on the fly for 10$ I would do it for sure (as well as the associated doujins manga, the doujins music CD, doujins games...).

About protection, I am a DLsite user and I can say that after buying a few protected products, unless the artist is really a good one that I like I won't buy any of them anymore. It is not a hassle to use, but for a product potentially easily share-able I think the protection not worth it. Protection imho should be only applied to game with a playability beyond Kinetic novel, a high value of replayability and extended lifetime play; and currently there are none on DLsite english side (wish they would open DLsite Pro to english users, though the piracy rate would raise up).

Still the same and only conclusion come up : if it's cheap and good it will sell.

edit : if it's cheap and good and available in your local store or at Con with some limited goodies it will sell even better

[DaFool]

About protection, I am a DLsite user and I can say that after buying a few protected products, unless the artist is really a good one that I like I won't buy any of them anymore. It is not a hassle to use, but for a product potentially easily share-able I think the protection not worth it. Protection imho should be only applied to game with a playability beyond Kinetic novel, a high value of replayability and extended lifetime play; and currently there are none on DLsite english side (wish they would open DLsite Pro to english users, though the piracy rate would raise up).

I guess for the sort of works I'm capable of doing, then protection won't be worth them.

I need more honest feedbacks like this; really helpful. I don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on artists (more like, I'm not really willing to pay that much for someone on deviantart, I probably know colleagues who can do cheaper and better), nor do I have the marketing nor connections (yet, anyway). It is just myself, and I doubt I can really produce a really replayable game, much less extended lifetime play (four hours or 80K is hard enough to reach as it is). I am starting to feel that to produce that sellable VN one must recruit a semi-pro team, which I cannot afford to manage right now...but not too long ago and even until now I strongly believe that the VN medium is kinder to the one-man effort compared to animation. Recruiting a semi-pro team means fleshing out a full business plan which includes fixed costs, variable costs -- I've done those things before, not fun, I tell you -- and all I managed to do was pinpoint where to reduce them, not really provide profit for the company.

I can't gather investors and launch another effort like Shira-Oka... that is extremely high risk and I'm already in the midst of starting another (unrelated) corporation (as treasurer, since my family is the main investor), btw signing forms for the Securities and Exchange Commission is a pain in the ass. Anyways I don't want to get corporate on my projects, even years down the road, since I think that may destroy the passion and heart put into them. I still want returns though, so I'm trying to build a reputation as an artist so my approach is exposure first and I just need to churn out a stream of works with gradual improvement over time. Gah, perhaps I'm thinking way too early (or maybe just biding my time until I can finally go from employee -> business owner).

Sorry this should really go to the For Profit thread but the reply here is most applicable. Really appreciate it, Adorya.

[Adorya]

To delve deeper in the subject, let's check a closer look at what is currently offering DLsite english side :
- CG gallery (that include also doujin manga, illustrated novel...)
- VN
- Games (mini games arkanoid type, interactive 3D Hgame/flash, shooter...)
- Miscellanous (sound novel, free copyrighted materials, wallpapers, anime...)

So far, the only protected materials were a few CG gallery and a few games. Now let's check the top selling materials : despite from the game protected and infamous kasumi flash which has been shared long time ago before DLsite went english, all of the "best sellers" are not protected (we have an anime ep, some CG gallery, a Hgame...). That say it all.

Although I am not against a sort of protection, copyright should not the main focus of the artist. The best protection you could offer is to flood the market with you work and be recognized by your style first. It's so easy for the mass to compare artist works and flame down falsification, especially when it's a good one who is copied and the copier make a poor product (which should be quite rare because DLsite already filter from its maniax version "sadly").

Also I don't think you need to rely on a big team to make a sellable product. If you take a look at the maniax side, just check the top seller or the good sellers, then those who are switched to the english side. Quite depressing with 3000+ units sold isn't it? Then just uncheck VN and Game from the top and you will see that html illustrated novels are still in good positions. If you aim for DLsite, art/scenarii is still the main seller so you don't have to make a good gameplay wise Hgame, which is just a bonus.

Also, from an artist point of view, don't expect much from your 1st official release work. It can be CG, a book or a game, unless you are not a newbie (or you nail exactly the niche) you won't get much because people know nothing of you. They are waiting for your progress, and as you are delivering more work and get better in their eye (so feedback is important, whatever good or bad they are), you will gain more in both popularity and financially.

Edit: one of the major problem with DLsite is that it doesn't allow parody of copyrighted work, which is a real shame because I am not even sure if you use the famous cens*red asterisk it will be accepted. Parody from famous copyrighted niche is what make circle famous, it cannot be denied (hell how could you do a good yaroge with no parody?!)

[Shish]

Trying to buy from the internet will cost you at least 30+ $ due to shipping cost (18$ for software, rest for shipping by Himeya for eg.) and only for a doujin game.

Or if you're in England, $18 for software and $40 shipping <_< $3 for each additional item though, thus making 5 games in one order seem even more like a good idea :3

[Jake]

Trying to buy from the internet will cost you at least 30+ $ due to shipping cost (18$ for software, rest for shipping by Himeya for eg.) and only for a doujin game.

Or if you're in England, $18 for software and $40 shipping <_< $3 for each additional item though, thus making 5 games in one order seem even more like a good idea :3

As it goes: I seem to recall that the shipping from Paletweb was pretty reasonable.

Unlike the charges imposed by Parcelforce. I don't mind paying the import duty at all, but I'm pretty cross when the 'handling charges' are more than the cost of the items, the shipping and the tax combined... which actually makes it more economical to order one-at-a-time; like that each individual item will be below the personal import-duty threshold.


And as for the statement being different in Japan - I don't see that it should be. The difference is that in Japan, if you can just walk along and pick it up locally for cheap money, the set of people who would ever consider buying the thing is much larger, and a larger percentage of the total population. People will undoubtedly still install the product on more than one PC, or lend it to their friends, or download a copy even if only because they can't find a physical copy for sale. In the west, the cost of buying a Touhou game is so much higher, the process more convoluted, so that many more people are in the "can't bring self to afford it" set. The populations are changed, but I suspect that the percentages within those populations are probably still similar.

[DaFool]

The best protection you could offer is to flood the market with you work and be recognized by your style first.

I suspected and keep on telling this for some time, but it's good to hear it from another voice I can start with my backgrounds style, then have to make more works with my recent adult style and palette-switching technique.

I think there are essentially 2 different approaches to selling anime games.

1.) Artist-centric: The artist is the primary creator. Hence, s/he should create stylistic works, and the primary consumers will be fans of that work. Gameplay is not really that important, so long as the art / scenario delivers. This is the approach of many (most?) works on DLsite.

2.) Programmer-centric: The gamemaker is the primary creator, regardless of whether s/he is an artist or not. S/he should create fun games, and the primary consumers would be casual gamers. Gameplay is paramount, perhaps the scenario too, although art can be outsourced for the most part. This is the approach of independent gamermakers. I am actively keeping tabs on the development of Fatal Hearts. I'd say the day art/scenario overtakes gameplay in importance would be the day the west is ready for visual novels.

Since I'm not really a programmer, approach 1.) is what I'd do.

[papillon]

Another factor of having the artist as a central part of your creative team - time. I had to wait until very late in development before starting to hire art contractors, because I needed to be certain

1) that the game would be completed
2) exactly what art I needed - some sprite frames and backgrounds were thrown out after I tuned up the script.

In both cases, obviously, to avoid wasting money.

When you're paying for each piece of art you don't want to waste anything... but eventually you end up in a situation with a completed script and a game you want to release and a huge pile of art that you don't have.

Which in my case, since this isn't quite a traditional visual novel, means that I'm working with a whole BUNCH of artists, and the game is going to get a mix of visual styles in the CGs. It's the cheapest way to get things done quickly...

If my own art skills were up to scratch, or one of my partners were an artist, we could create art as we went along.

[DaFool]

Okay, I'm trying to put two and two together, and sort of make this generalization...

1.) For artist-centric works, since the style should be instantly recognizable, copy protection is not really necessary. In fact, fans would buy, for example, an artbook despite being scans of it on the net.

2.) For programmer-centric works, which already provide the time-stretching effects of gameplay and replayability, then copy protection is a must. This is very important where the art often changes styles.

I haven't considered a third factor... Writer-centric works. But I have a feeling they would apply more in an IF forum or writers' community. For anime-related communities, since we are visual after all, a writer might have to ride on an artist (no not that way!) to move ahead.

[Adorya]

The populations are changed, but I suspect that the percentages within those populations are probably still similar.

It would be interesting then to compare queue buyer in front of a Comicket stand with an US Con stand. I know that both are now incredibly huge, but would the "burning passion of the fan" work as well for a single brand/creator like that?

Edit: Sorry to derail the thread, if we need to talk about Selling and creativity somewhere else, let me know.

[DaFool]

Ah, my fault too... but sometimes the ideas don't flow while in one thread, they flow in another (somewhat related thread), though not exactly on topic

I think if we're talking manga / manga doujinshi, everything is a lot more accessible so your pool of potential customers is huge.

But we are electronic media specialists, pretty constrained I might add

[BellosTheMighty]

Another factor of having the artist as a central part of your creative team - time. I had to wait until very late in development before starting to hire art contractors, because I needed to be certain

1) that the game would be completed
2) exactly what art I needed - some sprite frames and backgrounds were thrown out after I tuned up the script.

In both cases, obviously, to avoid wasting money.

When you're paying for each piece of art you don't want to waste anything... but eventually you end up in a situation with a completed script and a game you want to release and a huge pile of art that you don't have.

Which in my case, since this isn't quite a traditional visual novel, means that I'm working with a whole BUNCH of artists, and the game is going to get a mix of visual styles in the CGs. It's the cheapest way to get things done quickly...

If my own art skills were up to scratch, or one of my partners were an artist, we could create art as we went along.

On the subject- has anyone thought of paying the artists by instead giving them a share of the profits from the game?

[papillon]

Of course. But that would generally be 'having an artist as part of your team'. That requires a lot more commitment to the project in general.

Go onto a general art recruitment area and say "I have this great project! I can't pay you anything, but I'll give you a share of any profits!" And you will be roundly mocked by everyone except a few kids who draw in crayon. Basically, there are a lot of people out there with ideas for things they want to make, and most of them will never finish. Getting involved with a creator on a profit-share arrangement is a risky proposition for an artist and some of them will be insulted if you even ask (and post rants about it in other communities).

After all, (in their opinion) if your idea is so great, why aren't you willing to put your money where your mouth is? If you're sure it will be a success, why aren't you borrowing the money to finance it? Or are you just asking them to work for free because you know you won't ever make any money?

Now, if you can find an artist who's completely won over by the idea and thinks it's the greatest thing ever and just wants to get on the team and be totally involved... then they'll be happy to share in its success or failure. And will probably want a lot of creative input, too, since obviously if it bombs their time has been wasted.

---

On the other hand, imagine that your game IS a success and you sell thousands of copies through dozens of different avenues for years to come. Think how much more complicated your bookkeeping is going to be if you have to profit-share? Especially if you have more than one artist, or more than one title on sale?

I'd be willing to share profits with the right person, but there'd have to be a good trust relationship on both sides, because it's really a pain.