Customize at the beginning versus pick a choice

[DaFool]

I'm not too sure if there was a topic like this before, it feels vaguely familiar and yet not at the same time. (Edit: Ah! The artificial intelligence thread touched upon this.) I'd like to discuss in depth the pros / cons of these two styles:

1.) Customize at the beginning -- The example that comes to mind is Pygmalion, where you set options, then depending on your preferences, the girl you meet is thus customized.

2.) Pick a Choice -- The standard renai setup, you get to meet your all your potential love interests first, then your actions will betray whom you like the most so you end up on her path.

Now, in terms of writing, I don't really think one is more efficient than the other. I mean, if there are 5 personality types for 1.) and 5 different girls each exhibiting a personality type for 2.), you would end up writing 5 different scenarios for each anyway.

In terms of resources, such as graphics, you can make a basic template and expand it to, for example, 5 different characters -- cookie-cutter-looking characters at best, but at least there would be a minimal differentiation to tell them apart.

But here's what I think the advantage of the Customize approach is... whereas with Pick a Choice, you would get the following defaults, for example

Redhead = Spunky Girl
Purplehead = Quiet Girl
Shorthead = Sporty Girl

with Customize approach, you can set the Spunky Girl to be Purplehead, because that is just your preference as a player. Like, if you ever were annoyed that all silver-haired or blue-haired girls were of the Rei Ayanami type, this would be the chance to break that stereotype.

But there's a problem as always. The beginning of the Customize type game feels like an interview, and the fun of playing around haphazardly not knowing who you'll eventually end up with (such as in the Pick a Choice approach) is gone. The introduction to the various characters is lost, which is important for the player to gauge the total scope of the game.

However, the Customize approach makes you feel more monogamous and has less of a meat market feel unlike the Pick a Choice approach. The Pick a Choice approach would be akin to multiple casual dating where you end up with someone who you struck the most points with, then go steady afterwards. I don't know about you, but being the geek that I am, getting a single date is hard enough, much less multiple dates. So I don't get why this approach is the most common for otaku renai games. With the Customize approach, on the other hand, you home in on your target love interest early, so it is just a matter of winning her over or failing to do so. Perhaps then this approach would be the dating sim that approaches real life, and do we want that?

In terms of replayability, both approaches are replayable, but the Customize approach probably means you start a new game to replay, whereas the Pick a Choice approach usually means you load a saved game from a critical menu choice.

[themocaw]

Mmmm. . .

I'm taking an even more extreme variation for my first game: instead of customize or pick a choice, you get one girl. The question is, how your interactions with her affect your eventual relationship. Given that she's a tsundere, she may end up more tsun, or more dere, and your attitude affects whether she sees you as someone tough to look up to or someone to protect.

I think the reason ren'ai gaming tends towards the latter approach is, simply, because they are, as someone (Adorable Rocket?) put it, not so much a game as a socialization simulator. The illusion is that the characters are actual individuals, and the player is expected, through socialization, to find out about their personalities. The prior approach breaks that illusion, which is why it tends to be used for less story-oriented games, like H simulators (Artificial Girl series) and parenting/mentoring simulations (Princess Maker).

Although it could be fascinating to have a story-oriented game that uses the customize approach. . . off the top of my head, something like "Absolute Boyfriend," where the main character recieves a mysterious survey asking them what they would want to see in an ideal girlfriend, and fills it out on a lark, specifying everything from personality to appearance. . . and then, a week or so later, she appears on your doorstep, matching your requirements to a tee. The plot could branch twofold: we could have socialization chapters focusing on your relationship to her, and story chapters that focus on you trying to find out where the heck she came from (and of course there must be a deep, dark secret behind her).

[papillon]

In a game design that I'm probably never going to get to write, it was intended that the game would start by letting you customise your love interest - by filling out a missing persons report. Perfectly good reason for having to describe the one you love! (Obviously, this requires an existing relationship, or at least a more complicated story.)

I think you really need to work this sort of survey into the game story to have it work. I don't think I'd feel the same way about a character who just happened to be XYZ than I would if I put those things into a survey at the beginning and *splat* here you go, one purple-haired glasses-wearing bisexual with tatttoos, or whatever. A scenario like themocaw describes, where there's the added mystery of "Where did this 'perfect girl' come from and why?" would keep it interesting. As would a game about, say, a company that sells Robot Girlfriends and lets you design your own and then through the story you go through various levels of angst about whether your girlfriend and your relationship is "real" or not...

[BellosTheMighty]

What you call the "pick a choice" approach is usually the standard because ren'ai is about romance and interpersonal relationships. In other words, the game is not supposed to be about just choosing your true love, but about *finding* it. The "chase", so to speak, is really the point, and therefore the first step is exactly that- to figure out who you're attracted to through interaction. In a master-designed ren'ai game, you should- theoretically- start wanting one girl, get to know her, and then (if you desire) switch gears and concentrate on someone else, either because you've gotten to know the first and she's not what you wanted or because the newcomer appeals to you more.

But art does not progress without people taking creative risks, so exploring new options is probably a good idea, whether or not they work out as planned. In that spirit, let me propose something to you- have you ever played Ultima 4? That game had a very unique character creation system. The entire game was centered around morality- your primary goal was to understand the nature of being a heroic individual, through mastery of a moral system composed of 8 virtues. Each virtue was tied to a specific town, from where came a specific class of adventuring character, and each epitomized the virtue of that town. For example, the Bards of Britain valued Compassion, the Paladins of Trinsic valued Honor, and so on. At the beginning of the game, to determine your own class, you met up with a gypsy who told your fortune. She asked you a semi-randomized series of moralistic questions, I think 7 or 8 out of a pool of 28. They weren't choices between good or evil, but choices between two competing goods. For example, one was: "Your rich lord has asked you to deliver a heavy purse of gold to another rich lord. Along the journey, you meet a poor man begging for alms. Do you show Compassion and give him a coin, knowing it won't be missed, or show Honor and discharge your duty as ordered?" These answers revealed what virtue you valued most, which in turn determined your class.

It was a very good system. To some extent, you could game it to get the class you wanted, but you could also "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" and just answer how you felt, thereby letting your personal values guide you. It was complex too- not only were the questions significant, but it wasn't as clean-cut as just choosing one virtue over another (unless you were rigging it to get a specific class). I don't really know exactly how it works, but the virtues were all related to each other- Honor was related to Compassion and Honesty, for example- so answering a question may give you a strong bonus for one virtue and a weaker one for another. These values and the way the questions affected them were also hidden from the player, so that while you could game for a specific class, you couldn't min-max. And deciding against a certain virtue didn't lock you out of it either- it would usually come around again.

So then, I see no reason that the same basic idea couldn't be applied to ren'ai. Simple method: an outright nod to U4- get your fortune told at the beginning, and the telling determines who you "run into by chance" a few scenes later. Slightly more complex method: The protagonist is a relationship doctor, like an amateur version of Will Smith in that movie Hitch. Over the first portion of the game, when you're establishing the main character's routine, introducing his potential mates, and so forth, have supporting cast members come up to him asking his advice on dilemmas, and the answers he gives determine his own choice in mates. At the start of Act II, the protagonist, by chance, witnesses something that causes him to see one of his potential mates in a new light, and he becomes smitten with her. Significantly more complex method- As above, but instead of the relationship doctor angle, present the questions as actual dilemmas that the protagonist chances upon while going about his business. (Example: The protagonist runs into a young boy crying that some bullies have taken his ball. Does he defend the young boy and intimidate the bullies into giving back the ball, or buy him a new one using his lunch money, thus demonstrating self-sacrifice?) Or, for an added twist: As above, but the protagonist starts the game in a relationship which is doomed- either due to personalities, or because they have great sex but he doesn't really love her, or because she's moving away or has a date with a tragic destiny, etc.. Once the invisible questioning is over, the inevitable break-up happens and the body of the game is the protagonist picking up the pieces and finding a new love.

Note that this will only determine your STARTING mate, though you can theoretically make that 75% of the game, and have the endgame be following up on the sudden infatuation. If you want to make a game with more complicated relationships, you can also have the character's values re-evaluated depending on his interactions with his primary interest or others, and on that basis open the option to run into and fall for someone else. If you're up for a real organizational challenge, you can even go through a "love triangle" subplot to get from A to B, but that will require you to write a lot of subplots.

Ah, new ideas. The possibilities are truly vast- even infinite. ^_^

[papillon]

(Although even though it wasn't *exactly* a romance game, Summer Schoolgirls does have you pick your choice of girl before you even start playing, and then succeed or fail with that girl.)

[Wintermoon]

Ren'ai games can be appreciated on at least three levels:

1. As a fantasy-fulfillment tool, where the player meets the romantic partner of their dreams.

2. As an literary work.

3. As a function mapping choices to results.

Level 1 could conceivably benefit from being able to customize the romantic partner. The problem is, I don't consider level 1 very compelling at all. When I do become attached to a character, it's because of the scenario, not because that character matches my checklist for an ideal romantic partner.

Level 2 benefits from predefined characters. The more you know about the character, the easier it is to write a scenario for that character.

Level 3 is interesting to me as a game designer and programmer. I can appreciate a visual novel on this level even if I don't particularly care for the story. Customizing the player's experience to a high degree does increase my appreciation of the game on this level. However, I have a feeling that most players simply won't care.

[Recca Phoenix]

I also think there are advantages to both approaches. Customize @ beginning lets you answer sort of "according to your own likes/dislikes" which works very well in a game where "you" are the main character because it sort of starts with a blank slate.
I disagree that pick-a-choice feels like a meat market. You can look at all the guys/girls in a given setting without necessarily getting romantically involved with each one. You talk to glasses guy "X" and find he's too nerdy, keep playing, run into long-haired man "Y" and like him better, go with man "Y" and finish the game. And as long as you give the player a chance to accept/decline each one enough within reason, it works pretty well.

[F.I.A]

"Customize" will be kind of what you get in Artificial Girl 2, where you get to make your ideal girl. You get to customize the girl the way you want, which is definitely a nice plus. However, being customizable might make it somewhat stressful, especially when you want to make the art to be unique instead of being only slightly different to one another.

On the other hand, most old dating games take the reverse customize approach, where you customize your own main character(Your age, hobby, blood type etc), which is implemented in series such as Can Can Bunny. Dating simulations also fall on this category as well, given that you build your character accordingly(Customize between strength or charm etc) in order to attract certain girl's interest, as shown in True Love.

------

"Pick your choice" is the current trend, since it allows a more linear storytelling compared to the "Customize" approach. Actually, I find this approach to be more natural, given that you interact with original characters(As in character with their own personality).

That being said, in most dating simulations, both approaches are blended together to make a solid game experience, as seen in games such as True Love(Customize: Build your character up + Pick your choices: Visits certain girl often, answer her nicely etc).

[monele]

Mmm... An example from the game that will never be, "Kittease" : I wanted some RPGish concept but didn't want a "character sheet" scene at the beginning. My trick was to have the protagonist and his sister remember the past while flipping through a photo album.
"Hey, look at you on this one... You were still in primary school I think."
"Yeah. At that time, I was really into..."
- Reading books
- Fighting with other kids
- Building our tree house

Each choice would then have its appropriate dialogue : "I remember... you read so much our parents thought you'd need glasses very fast."
and it would give points in the corresponding stats (intelligence, strength, ...) and skills (mechanics, sports, ...).

"Ah, there's a girl with you on this picture! Remember her?"
- Of course, she kept picking on me! But I couldn't bring myself to hate her.
- Yes, she was always alone and it made me curious. A very quiet girl.
- Uhh... no, I'm not sure who it was.

This would determine your childhood friend or lack of. You didn't determine everything about the girl, just her main personality. Afterwards, you'd get a "memory dream" where you'd relive a childhood scene with the chosen girl and be able to make regular VN choices that would determine your overall behaviour with the girl, deciding wether she would like you in the present or remember you as "that jerk".

All in all, it's very similar to the Ultima IV example or games like Morrowind/Oblivion.

Also, for "pick a choice", you could have the protagonist make choices before meeting any main girl which would determine his personality... and depending on this, it would determine who's the first girl you meet. It would still let you choose another one but the main girl would be easier to get because you supposedly match.

To me, character sheets are possible... it's all about making it in an original way

[Jake]

All in all, it's very similar to the Ultima IV example or games like Morrowind/Oblivion.

IIRC Ultima's just reminded me of the Voight-Kampff test... I'm not sure that's a way I'd want to start a romance story.

[DaFool]

I didn't actually get to extensively play many of the games mentioned... but their examples are giving me lots of ideas.

I'm starting to think that to create a more fulfilling relationship simulator would require a combination or hybrid, as some of the posts hinted at.

So the "fortune-telling" at the beginning would determine the first character you will bump into. If you accept her immediately, then it would become a "Customized" type of game. But... to make things more complicated, you will bump into the other characters later in the game, which could potentially lead you to dumping your first choice and going with another.

And if you deny the first character you bump into, you will bump into the other characters and from then on it would be a "Pick a Choice" type of game.

Now the trick is that you'd probably have to list out all the possible permutations of choices that a player makes during the "fortune-telling" session and make sure that you have a ready-made character sprite and scenario that would be launched as the first character based on that. So then the questions will more like determine an approximate potential love interest rather than truly customize her.

The True Ending will be the good ending with the First Character. All other endings will consist of the good endings for the other characters, as well as the bad endings.

Now for the case where you switched the First Character with another character, a variable can flag the fact that you had been in a previous relationship which could lead to bonus scenes -- i.e., a confrontation, a harem ending, who knows...

[Recca Phoenix]

To me, dafool, that last idea there is the ideal example that really gets a best-of-both worlds approach and if it could be pulled off, it would be the most awesome thing ever. I think it would require a great deal of programming, but it could be done. Game length would probably be the first thing to go (as it was with DtY because I gave the player so much freedom) but it would be very interesting.
My current ren'ai project (the Severed Garden) uses a hybrid approach. So, Lucy (main chara, in all ways unrelated to mugen's Lucy although they look strangely similar >_<) has a distinct personality in the game (not as much of a blank slate as Liany was in DtY), but depending on her reaction to several factors concerning her past and its effect on her, how she treats her friends, etc., she meets a certain guy or guys and has the ability to pick one (or go with the given one). This allowed me to write a much longer story for her and each of the six characters once she ends up with one, and to have the choices after that occur in the relationship, to make it succeed or fail. So it's a bastard child of my previous story + choices approach with a more dating-sim type approach.

[chronoluminaire]

Very interesting discussion. For me, though, I prefer the stories where I'm getting to know a character, rather than defining the character's personality to match my desire beforehand. Partly because that's what life's like: you don't get to craft your ideal girl, but instead you meet different girls and see who you click with.

What I do like is the detection of the player's mindset, though, through choices similar to what monele mentioned.