How to justify the little sister route?

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Message
Author
User avatar
TrickWithAKnife
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am
Projects: Rika
Organization: Solo (for now)
IRC Nick: Trick
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#16 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:28 am

Guess I'll address the elephant in the room. What is the appeal of incest, as a story device? Sci-fi allows us to dream of future possibilities and exploration. Mystery challenges our powers of observation. Horror allows us to experience fear in a safe environment. But incest...?

If we know the reason why you want to include incest, perhaps it will help with advice on the best way to add it while still achieving whatever your goal is?
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

User avatar
Asceai
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1258
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:13 am
Projects: a battle engine
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#17 Post by Asceai » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:41 am

Typically the 'forbidden love' angle is a good one to play up - it's a classic device, but harder to write nowadays where class and racial barriers are seen as less and less plausible. Incest remains one of the few true forbidden loves left.

User avatar
Vin Howard
Regular
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:08 am
Projects: A Digital Ghost Story
IRC Nick: Vin_Howard
Location: Midwest, USA
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#18 Post by Vin Howard » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:53 am

TrickWithAKnife wrote:Guess I'll address the elephant in the room. What is the appeal of incest, as a story device? Sci-fi allows us to dream of future possibilities and exploration. Mystery challenges our powers of observation. Horror allows us to experience fear in a safe environment. But incest...?

If we know the reason why you want to include incest, perhaps it will help with advice on the best way to add it while still achieving whatever your goal is?
Because humans love nothing more than to do things they know they shouldn't do.

User avatar
Michiyo6918
Veteran
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:26 am
Projects: ╮(╯▽╰)╭
Location: Look behind you
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#19 Post by Michiyo6918 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:59 am

Vin Howard wrote:
TrickWithAKnife wrote:Guess I'll address the elephant in the room. What is the appeal of incest, as a story device? Sci-fi allows us to dream of future possibilities and exploration. Mystery challenges our powers of observation. Horror allows us to experience fear in a safe environment. But incest...?

If we know the reason why you want to include incest, perhaps it will help with advice on the best way to add it while still achieving whatever your goal is?


Because humans love nothing more than to do things they know they shouldn't do.


This. (The Pandora box's story, anyone?)

But on a more serious note, beside incest may cause problem for your next offspring, I don't really see any other reason why it's such a big deal? I don't know, it's just me and my non-religious thing. IMO, people can love whoever they want, nobody has the right to tell them what or who they should love and who they shouldn't. If a brother loves his sister (like real love, not just out of curiosity), who am I to tell him that he shouldn't? I don't like forcing the whole 'it's immoral and forbidden and sick just because society classifies it as so' on other people.
Tumblr | DA | Honest Critique
“如果那个人是神。
他想渎神。
——【黑匣子】”

User avatar
TrickWithAKnife
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1261
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:38 am
Projects: Rika
Organization: Solo (for now)
IRC Nick: Trick
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#20 Post by TrickWithAKnife » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:05 am

If you don't see a problem with incest, I don't think a debate on the topic will go anywhere constructive.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

User avatar
Michiyo6918
Veteran
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:26 am
Projects: ╮(╯▽╰)╭
Location: Look behind you
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#21 Post by Michiyo6918 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:12 am

TrickWithAKnife wrote:If you don't see a problem with incest, I don't think a debate on the topic will go anywhere constructive.


Yeah. The one who opened the topic seemed to find out his solution for his story already so I guess it's the end for the topic? Once again people have their own opinions on thing so let's just leave it as that :P
Tumblr | DA | Honest Critique
“如果那个人是神。
他想渎神。
——【黑匣子】”

User avatar
Laiska
Veteran
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:14 am
Completed: Queen At Arms, Cerulean, The Shadows That Run Alongside Our Car, Vicarwissen
Projects: Caramel Mokaccino
Tumblr: minesweeperaddict
Deviantart: koyoba
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#22 Post by Laiska » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:44 pm

I hate to stir up a discussion that already seems settled, but I do think the entire idea of fiction is to be able to explore angles that are not present or not possible or just plain taboo in real life. As a writer, I know that even things that I would find morally reprehensible in real life (or at the very least distasteful; I could never date my own sister), can make for interesting fiction. It's all in the "what if?"

If writers were only to write characters whose values and morals match up with the writer's views, then we would only have as many characters as there are creators, rather than the infinite universe of possibilities which exists in the realm of fiction. Even in VNs, where the player/reader takes on a semi-personal perspective of the events unfolding, it would be awfully boring to only play 'yourself' in the same flavour in every single game that you play and every first person story you read. Unless you are there purely for a completely vanilla (narratively speaking) dating sim type experience, where you yourself are the end all and be all of the protagonist's consciousness, I believe some of the fun is in being able to step into the mind of someone else for a little while. If you acknowledge that much, it's easier to say, "Well personally I think incest would be a terrible horrible idea, but I'll go along with this and see why someone might enjoy it."

As for why people might personally enjoy an incest angle in their games? Mainly I think it's already been said, people love to try the things that they know they should not, so what better place to do so than within a consequence-free computer game?

In any case I don't find it at all productive to come into a topic looking for a new spin on an uncommon (but not unheard of) trope and cast judgement on it. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes, even if they don't mesh with our own.

User avatar
MaiMai
Yandere
Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:04 pm
Completed: [Phase Shift]
Projects: [ None ]
Organization: Paper Stars
Tumblr: maiscribbles
Deviantart: maiscribble
Location: USA, Southern California
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#23 Post by MaiMai » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:47 pm

The thing is, it's barely uncommon anymore (fake and real for that matter) which is why it can be pretty eye roll worthy, regardless of what you feel about it.
Image COMMISSIONS AVAILABLE (check Tumblr sidebar)

User avatar
Laiska
Veteran
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:14 am
Completed: Queen At Arms, Cerulean, The Shadows That Run Alongside Our Car, Vicarwissen
Projects: Caramel Mokaccino
Tumblr: minesweeperaddict
Deviantart: koyoba
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#24 Post by Laiska » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:06 pm

Well, this is true. Though at this point there's such a wealth of already produced media that hardly anything is uncommon (except for... well I won't get into that just now xD). But I was responding more to the apparent moral objection, rather than an objection to plot elements that are growing stale. And the latter issue was the whole point of the topic I think, so, there you go.

ThisIsNoName
Veteran
Posts: 311
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:15 pm
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#25 Post by ThisIsNoName » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:35 pm

I know this topic has already been settled, but I'm kind of suprised Genetic Sexual Attraction hasn't been brought up yet. Basically, if you and a family member are seperated long enough for the Westermarck Effect to not take effect, you are actually more likely to be attracted to that family member when you meet them later, compared to non-family members.

Anyways, here's a forum I found that might give you some insight.

I hope this gives you a few helpful answers. Good luck!

User avatar
LateWhiteRabbit
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1850
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:47 pm
Projects: The Space Between
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#26 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:43 pm

ThisIsNoName wrote:I know this topic has already been settled, but I'm kind of suprised Genetic Sexual Attraction hasn't been brought up yet. Basically, if you and a family member are seperated long enough for the Westermarck Effect to not take effect, you are actually more likely to be attracted to that family member when you meet them later, compared to non-family members.
I was just debating whether to bring up this "opposite" side of the route and reveal.

Would it be too cruel to the player to have a "surprise, you're really siblings!" reveal at the end, like a reverse 'it's okay, you're not blood related'?

As ThisIsNoName points out, this is a very real effect, and a key reason why siblings are not longer split up in foster care, and sperm banks try to avoid too many mothers from one area with the same donor father.

If you never met your sister until you were both sexually mature adults, you'd be more attracted romantically to each other than you would a random stranger of equal beauty. Mother Nature's cruel joke I suppose.

User avatar
Vin Howard
Regular
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:08 am
Projects: A Digital Ghost Story
IRC Nick: Vin_Howard
Location: Midwest, USA
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#27 Post by Vin Howard » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:35 pm

Michiyo6918 wrote:
But on a more serious note, beside incest may cause problem for your next offspring, I don't really see any other reason why it's such a big deal?
Well as someone who has an imouto of his own, it all comes down to the dignity of family love. Romantic love between siblings destroys the sibling love (which I would argue is more real than the passion that all romantic love starts out with) that was there before. And since I have an imouto, that sibling love is something I hold very close to me and something I don't like seeing just disappear.

Caveat Lector
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:02 am
Completed: Colette and Becca
Projects: Rainbow Love (HIATUS), The Haunting of Blackbird School, Cry of the Roses [TBA]
Organization: Velveteen Rabbit Productions
Deviantart: Velveteen-Rabbit-CL
itch: caveat_lector
Location: My chair
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#28 Post by Caveat Lector » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:03 pm

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
ThisIsNoName wrote:I know this topic has already been settled, but I'm kind of suprised Genetic Sexual Attraction hasn't been brought up yet. Basically, if you and a family member are seperated long enough for the Westermarck Effect to not take effect, you are actually more likely to be attracted to that family member when you meet them later, compared to non-family members.
I was just debating whether to bring up this "opposite" side of the route and reveal.

Would it be too cruel to the player to have a "surprise, you're really siblings!" reveal at the end, like a reverse 'it's okay, you're not blood related'?
If it's sprung out of nowhere at the very end, yes. But I think it's better to instead have the reveal be the turning point in Act 1--something similar to Koi Kaze?
Reader Beware!


The Haunting of Blackbird School: In Progress

Colette and Becca: Complete

User avatar
Michiyo6918
Veteran
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:26 am
Projects: ╮(╯▽╰)╭
Location: Look behind you
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#29 Post by Michiyo6918 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:31 pm

Vin Howard wrote:Well as someone who has an imouto of his own, it all comes down to the dignity of family love. Romantic love between siblings destroys the sibling love (which I would argue is more real than the passion that all romantic love starts out with) that was there before. And since I have an imouto, that sibling love is something I hold very close to me and something I don't like seeing just disappear.


I understand what you are trying to say. I also have sisters myself so I know. That is why I hold a really high expectation for an incest story. I don't expect to see people falling in love with their siblings so easily, I mean, what about sibling love? People might make a mistake between sibling love with romantic love. (Like me used to have a crush on my cousin when I was 10 LMFAO) Thus, if a story come down to real incest, I want to see the characters being able to distinguish the two different kinds of love and dare to follow his/her true feeling.
Tumblr | DA | Honest Critique
“如果那个人是神。
他想渎神。
——【黑匣子】”

User avatar
Rosstin2
Veteran
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:42 pm
Completed: King's Ascent, Kitty Love
Projects: Queen At Arms, Rex Rocket
Organization: Aqualuft Games
Contact:

Re: How to justify the little sister route?

#30 Post by Rosstin2 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:38 pm

TrickWithAKnife wrote:Guess I'll address the elephant in the room. What is the appeal of incest, as a story device? Sci-fi allows us to dream of future possibilities and exploration. Mystery challenges our powers of observation. Horror allows us to experience fear in a safe environment. But incest...?

If we know the reason why you want to include incest, perhaps it will help with advice on the best way to add it while still achieving whatever your goal is?
I'm really curious too. People specifically requested a relationship option with the adopted brother character in my latest game. I agreed because of the demand, but I'm still curious why people are so into it.
Vin Howard wrote:
Michiyo6918 wrote:
But on a more serious note, beside incest may cause problem for your next offspring, I don't really see any other reason why it's such a big deal?
Well as someone who has an imouto of his own, it all comes down to the dignity of family love. Romantic love between siblings destroys the sibling love (which I would argue is more real than the passion that all romantic love starts out with) that was there before. And since I have an imouto, that sibling love is something I hold very close to me and something I don't like seeing just disappear.
This is one of the reasons I find the idea pretty weird. I would rather see genuine non-romantic sibling relationships explored more often.
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users