"Purity" in otome games

[Wissa]

This may be completely presumptuous, but I think the very nature of these games appeal to a lot of people who either don't have a lot of real life experience, or want to escape from it for awhile. Personally, I don't want so much reality in my games. I want to see and experience things that you don't get in real life. For a lot of people, that might be exotic lands, harems of super hot guys/babes, or innocence. Maybe innocence is fetishized so much because it is rare nowadays? Let's be honest, when has VNs in general ever been without fetishizing? I don't think it's a conscious decision. Though infantilization may be a problem in a feminist culture, we know that youth has always been idolised in every civilization across time, and youth is probably associated with purity and vice versa on a subconscious level.

[LVUER]

* Fantasy world issues: if you live in a world where virginity gives you amazing powers, how do you deal with it?

It reminds to a (fantasy shounen) manga where the protagonist is surrounded by couple of hot girls (who obviously, fall for him) but need to keep his virginity because the martial art style he use needs him to be virgin.

[DespairParty]

The lead character in dating sims for both men and women are typically 100% virgins, actually, and it's completely detached from the purity myth (though on the flipside, galge datables are usually super gross about it......... [AGGRESSIVELY AVOIDS BxG] ). The games are designed for people who "romanticize romance". People with dating experience are less drawn in by the intense feelings and unknown territories of love, and are less likely to think their love is an incomparable epic. Having past relationships also helps you manage the negative parts and helps you digest that your world isn't going to end if things go sour. It's more sane and down-to-earth, but less...big. These games tend to appeal to people with dating experience for

Also, it's twice as gross to assume people need a reason to not date? Sometimes people just don't get the opportunity because of some coincidental circumstances. Maybe they're too focused and seem a little detached to others, maybe they never got the opportunity to catch someone's eye, maybe they had the opportunity but weren't interested in the interested party. Assuming pure extremes of cause & effect is kind of ignoring how humans are...humans. Sometimes connections just don't happen.

Of course, this is mostly me being sour because people demand a reason for not being actively interested in romantic/sexual entanglements, and simple explanations are rarely enough. What about your horomone balance??????? BUT HEY

Also, for consideration, some asexuals tend to have a really damn thorough comprehension of sexual education; when you are aware of the fact you're missing out on something, and are constantly reminded of the fact by your peers, it's human nature to be a little curious about it. A virgin 20-year-old in the age of information not knowing about sex is just. lmfao no

(AGAIN, GALGE ARE REALLY GROSS ABOUT THIS and seem to assume that girls only experience arousal during the mattress mambo, because obv if girls don't suffer from think-with-your-dick syndrome they must not be horny at all, ever. Their delicate pink blossom is only for their precious partner to deflower because, I don't know, their bf earned it with their basic human consideration and expressing the desire to bone her. Men are weird.)

[trooper6]

Things I'm not bothered by: A main character of either gender who just hasn't happened to have had sex or been kissed, especially if it is age and/or situation appropriate.
Things I am bothered by: Equating not having had sex with being "pure"--and valuing that "purity" in women as a measure of their worth. This is sexist and I don't like it at all.

[noeinan]

^Yes.

[Wissa]

Being that I was originally drawn to VNs with games like Togainu no Chi, a very popular one, which is practically the epitome of rape culture, I just find it odd to have feminist/ethical expectations when approaching these types of games.

[Asceai]

Code: Select all

Being that I was originally drawn to VNs with games like Togainu no Chi, a very popular one, which is practically the epitome of rape culture, I just find it odd to have feminist/ethical expectations when approaching these types of games.

My view is that it really depends on what you're doing. I don't find it problematic for a protagonist in a rape game to narrate uncharitable things about women based on whether they are virgins or not, because it fits the genre. If it's a protagonist we're actually supposed to like and identify with, though, it is a real problem. If it's a flawed protagonist who improves throughout the story, though, that could end up excusing it\.

Yes, it's sexist to value women differently based on their 'purity', but some characters are sexist. Since VNs are primarily first-person, even the narrator is a character and you can probably dismiss much of this as characterisation.

The flipside is that building sexism into your universe (example that comes to mind- only virgin women can use magic) doesn't seem to attract all that much criticism, even though it's a trope I've seen used pretty frequently. I guess the criticism in this case can be dismissed because it's just a storytelling mechanic- it doesn't necessarily imply that the author things virgins are better or anything, it's just a concept that the author thought would be interesting to explore the ramifications of.

Food for thought.

EDIT: Although even from my 'assume good faith' standpoint, when I played Mirai's Tsundere S Otome and saw the opening, with the protagonist getting called fat by a character she met at an offkai and only has to get plastic surgery and assume a completely fake personality to start winning guys again, even I was offended =P

[noeinan]

Being that I was originally drawn to VNs with games like Togainu no Chi, a very popular one, which is practically the epitome of rape culture, I just find it odd to have feminist/ethical expectations when approaching these types of games.

Really? I mean, lots of different people get drawn to VNs for different reasons, so it would follow that some folks may appreciate, say, the emphasis on story, characters, and relationships, while not liking sexist portrayals of women (and men.)

Also, when folks like a medium it follows that they want to support it including more of what they like.

[Googaboga]

Being that I was originally drawn to VNs with games like Togainu no Chi, a very popular one, which is practically the epitome of rape culture, I just find it odd to have feminist/ethical expectations when approaching these types of games.

I'm not sure what you mean. 'Visual Novel' doesn't equal 'sexist sexy games full of sex'. Sure that is one kind of genre that happens with VNs but saying that should be the standard which people expect when going into any VN is like saying you should except just one kind of genre from books or any other story telling medium. Obviously if that's what you're looking for that is what you'll find but if that's not what you're after there are plenty of other options.

If you meant something else by 'these types of games' then this doesn't apply. But yeah if you do mean VNs overall that is really not a correct assumption to make.

[trooper6]

Being that I was originally drawn to VNs with games like Togainu no Chi, a very popular one, which is practically the epitome of rape culture, I just find it odd to have feminist/ethical expectations when approaching these types of games.

I was originally drawn to VNs with games like "Digital: A Love Story" and "Analogue: A Hate Story"--and seeing that a number of Western VNs have female creators who are politically aware...I was encouraged that this could be a genre that would challenge some of the really problematic depictions of men and women seen in AAA games. And for the most part I have found that to be true. I carry my feminism/humanism/ethics with me wherever I go, and I look at all art through those lenses.

Asceai mentions an important distinction between main characters who are sexist and games that are sexist. I agree with Asceai that I am fine with sexist characters in games, but not fine with sexist games. It is why I love Mad Men, but loathe Two and a Half Men.

So my expectations for games that I am going to enjoy, spend time with, and perhaps give money to, is that they don't propagate rape culture and don't reinforce the virgin/whore dichotomy by fetishizing notions of female purity. The flip side of that would be, if I found a game that was sex positive and supported a culture of enthusiastic consent, I wouldn't care at all if the protagonist had had sex or not. I would be happy to support the game. There would be bonus points if the game did not automatically assume PiV sex is the only real sex.

Also: Big Feminist Love to daikiraikimi, googabooga, and Asceai

[noeinan]

Feminist high five! Always love your posts, trooper6. :3

They make me wish there was a like or up vote button on here.

[DespairParty]

Being that I was originally drawn to VNs with games like Togainu no Chi, a very popular one, which is practically the epitome of rape culture, I just find it odd to have feminist/ethical expectations when approaching these types of games.

Power play fantasies! Power play fantasies!!!!!

OKAY THIS IS MY FAVOURITE TOPIC EVER AND I CAN LITERALLY NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT so I apologize in advance for all the words that are about to occur all over this post.

Okay, first off: the most common kink on the planet is power imbalance. All forms of fiction contain media that enforces a submission/domination dynamic, and the consent actually varies a lot under this trope, because humanity is not actually terrible. It varies from enthusiastic consent, to manipulation, to assault. Different strokes for different folks. In fact, Twilight and 50 Shades are two halves of the power imbalance coin; one is a romantic imbalance, the other is a sexual imbalance. Both are fantasies! NEATO. I'll talk about fantasies in just a sec.

PG-13 disclaimer on safe sub/dom activity following, feel free to skip, but it's nice context to the icky implications of the submission fantasy:

It's important to note that 50 Shades depicts some god-awful abuse and is a bad picture of a sub/dom relationship. In BDSM - the most common sub/dom community - there are Rules! Thes apply to both bedroom and day-to-day interaction (e.g. verbal flaying, humiliation or control over autonomy). Basically, everything is Safe, Sane, and Consensual IRL, and most people like the old 3-step:
1! Discuss your boundaries beforehand. This conversation is where you establish a rough picture of what is too much, what your safe words are, and what indicates the start of a scenario.
2! Funtimes usually include variety! Either ask before doing anything new, or set up some bonus safewords for 'no, this awful, go back to doing the other thing'. Enthusiastic consent is super easy to enforce and people who claim otherwise should be avoided on principle.
3! Power play is emotionally exhausting. Provide your partner with aftercare when you're done, varying from a cooldown period to fluffy cuddlesnuggles depending on preference. You should talk that out with your partner too; some stuff might require more cuddlesnuggles than other stuffs.

The dom/sub dynamic is eeeeeeverywhere, and it overlaps a lot in rape; a lot of porny games focus on it! It's important to remember this interest is actually fantasy; it operates in its own little box, and doesn't normally associate itself with earth logic. So @Wissa, it's not actually weird to be drawn into games that depict sexual assault and celebration of said assault while still being aware of basic human ethics! Fantasy exists in all forms of medium, including smutty visual novels. I make excited gibbering noises and right-click-save when I see cute boys beaten up, but the act of cute boys being beaten makes me sick. It operates in layers.

Okay, circling back to what this has to do with the topic (and my previous half-formed opinion): the innocent virgin protagonist thing is a direct result of power imbalance kinks. Like, direct. So is the purity myth, which is where it gets gross, and the purity myth + male entitlement, which is where it gets eeauuauugghghghh. That's usually the point most AAA games key in at.

So, purity vs power; the 'pure' heroine of your basic otoge isn't as much 'unblemished' as 'not as in control as someone with more romantic/sexual experience would be'. The assertive partner who knows what they're doing and takes charge sexually is the dominant, and since the heroine can't take charge of the relationship due to her not knowing what the hell (virgin tier!), the dynamic is inherently imbalanced! And that's kind of thrilling to a lot of people, because it implies you have to put all of your trust in someone who could theoretically take advantage of that, and you wouldn't know any better because you have no point of reference, and when the partner doesn't take advantage, it's like. Wheeeee, I don't have to worry about my autonomy being violated!

Also, definitely remember: the Safe, Sane, and Consensual rules do apply to non-sexy-times, and you may notice that discussions of boundaries don't actually show up all that often despite this. Or ever. That's another thing; fantasy logic! That is to say, as long as my fantasy is fulfilled I don't really have to think too hard logic. Shows up a lot in sci-fi and books with dragons in them, but it applies to romance and smut. Since dating games are mostly just glorifying the GREAT ROMANCE (in a totally vanilla sense), I'll just keep wording it up about that in particular.

In this version of fantasy logic, the fantasy is that you do not need to have a really awkward, scary conversation with your partner to confirm with them that your autonomy isn't going to be threatened, ever. I have personally experienced this talk twice, and I can personally attest that yes, it is scary as hell and I had a huge sobfest before going through with both them, even though the results were awesome and now I am super happy with my relationship.

But in the mushy vanilla romance stories, they just know. They just magically know how pushy they can be before fear becomes an element, they magically know when to back off, when to ease up on the control, and the only time they don't magically know is when it's important to the plot. In the mushy vanilla romance stories, the partner has some sort of psychic consent power. I am pretty sure this is the driving force of every shoujo manga ever written, actually. It's a little enamouring.

SO. YEAH. PURITY MYTH IN DATING GAMES. THAT HAPPENS. Just because a lot of the glorified mushy vanilla romance stuff is riding off the thrill of Wheeeee, I don't have to worry about my autonomy being violated doesn't mean the autonomy is, in fact, never violated, because bleeeghghh.

With Otoge, the fact it's so innocent and 'who me, writing an unhealthy relationship??' is probably the shadiest part. The main thing is that the plot-induced off-switch to the love interest's magical psychic consent powers usually ends up in the heroine being condemned? E.G. Her talking to male friends or spending a little time without him sets him off and the lesson is that she shouldn't do those things because it's callous, or something. Like, it's totally her fault that her controlling BF pushed past her boundaries, and it's totally okay that her autonomy is on such shaky and demanding grounds, guys, this is in no way painting a grim picture to people who are inexperienced with emotional control!! This somehow gets worse in the all-ages stuff, because they aren't allowed to have the 'yay hot boy wants all my attention' gambit produce an actual result beyond the sentiment itself, so it's just. Straight up goddamn abuse. That's emotional abuse. That's. No. God, stop that.
(One of the most common ways to write this off is to write the offending partner as actual human trash, and I fall for it every single time because I hold an uncomfortably strong interest in trash boys. Foiled again by your half-assed skirting, sexist media.)

With Galge...Yeehaw. So, yeah, they're usually virgins, because Relationship Idealism and all, and that's cool. The issue isn't actually the protagonists (they're often actually pretty likeable and respectful, which is swell), but rather the treatment of the women in the writing? A huge part of my discomfort with galge is the way girls are treated like some sort of game of ownership rather than increasing a bond. Conquer this girl, acquire this one-dimensional culmination of desirable traits! She's a virgin, because she belongs exclusively to you! She only responds to physical stimulus, because that means she has never been in want of the touch of another, even when her character arc focused on being in love with someone other than you! GIRLS AREN'T CONTROLLED BY THEIR DICKS AND THAT MEANS THEY HAVE NO AROUSAL WHATSOEVER. The purity myth and subtle implication that sexually active women are so undesirable they literally do not exist just...I wish I was more eloquent, but there is no combination of words that quite captures the feeling that eeauuauugghghghh expresses.

Okay, I'm done. Words are done. I'm good.

[Asceai]

With Otoge, the fact it's so innocent and 'who me, writing an unhealthy relationship??' is probably the shadiest part. The main thing is that the plot-induced off-switch to the love interest's magical psychic consent powers usually ends up in the heroine being condemned? E.G. Her talking to male friends or spending a little time without him sets him off and the lesson is that she shouldn't do those things because it's callous, or something. Like, it's totally her fault that her controlling BF pushed past her boundaries, and it's totally okay that her autonomy is on such shaky and demanding grounds, guys, this is in no way painting a grim picture to people who are inexperienced with emotional control!! This somehow gets worse in the all-ages stuff, because they aren't allowed to have the 'yay hot boy wants all my attention' gambit produce an actual result beyond the sentiment itself, so it's just. Straight up goddamn abuse. That's emotional abuse. That's. No. God, stop that.
(One of the most common ways to write this off is to write the offending partner as actual human trash, and I fall for it every single time because I hold an uncomfortably strong interest in trash boys. Foiled again by your half-assed skirting, sexist media.)

Now, not all otome games are like this, but one of the reasons I'm not a huge otome game fan (even though I want to be) is because most of the titles I play (which are admittedly Japanese titles, okay, so I may not have the best sample) have the saddest doormat protagonists.

One of the reasons I actually liked Tsundere S Otome so much is, despite a pretty ordinary plot and unappealing characters is because at a few moments of the story you can actually make the protagonist do something assertive (which the game labels 'tsundere', but whatever >_>)
Even the much maligned Riddle Garden I found appealing because it had a few moments like this. I treasure them precisely because they're so rare.
Just once I'd like to play an otome game with a badass protagonist (maybe Crimsoness counts, but it's 3 minutes long so...), like the protagonists of DEVILS DEVEL CONCEPT or Electro Arms.

EDIT: okay, fine, I just want my masculine power fantasies to be manifest in my otome games. is that too much to ask?!?!

[DespairParty]

Now, not all otome games are like this, but one of the reasons I'm not a huge otome game fan (even though I want to be) is because most of the titles I play (which are admittedly Japanese titles, okay, so I may not have the best sample) have the saddest doormat protagonists.

One of the reasons I actually liked Tsundere S Otome so much is, despite a pretty ordinary plot and unappealing characters is because at a few moments of the story you can actually make the protagonist do something assertive (which the game labels 'tsundere', but whatever >_>)
Even the much maligned Riddle Garden I found appealing because it had a few moments like this. I treasure them precisely because they're so rare.
Just once I'd like to play an otome game with a badass protagonist (maybe Crimsoness counts, but it's 3 minutes long so...), like the protagonists of DEVILS DEVEL CONCEPT or Electro Arms.

EDIT: okay, fine, I just want my masculine power fantasies to be manifest in my otome games. is that too much to ask?!?!

Oh, man, I feel it. I don't have any interest in assertive leads, but I don't like power imbalances either; so if my heroine is a doormat, I assume the dominant guy is going to be viciously broken to match. This is half because I am an inherently violent person, and half because I think two cuties in a balanced relationship is the must adora-worable thing on the planet. When it just ends with the aggressive boy unchecked, I get moody and misanthropic.

Otoge really does needs some spice, starting with the purity issue, and pushing on with the assertiveness. The average empty girly-girl innocent protagonist is so damn boring. Like, it's okay to have negative traits, or an expressive personality, or an interest in sex! Hell, a scene where the heroine checks out her boy's ass would probably go over without issue, even in a for-young-teens game! If I read a heroine going "wow hell yes" when her love interest holds her to his (chiselled, marble-smooth, warm) chest, I would adore her immediately! If her love interest got into a fight and she plowed in with a rescue before he broke a rib? COOL! If she gives her love interest a verbal dressing-down for being a dick? AWESOME!! If we were actually given an either-or on whether the heroine is okay with being shoved around? The best situation conceivable.

But no aggressive or sexual heroines allowed, wah wah wah. W/E.

I think the issue of how heroines are depicted has a lot of different shades to it, and while it's an interesting topic I could talk about for ages, it's also a pretty frustrating one.

[Wissa]

Ah, lots of replies. I'll try to reframe what I meant as simply as I can.
Not all VNs are the same. I was making a generalization by "these types of games." I made this generalization because most of the VNs I have come across are meant to fulfill some sort of romantic/sexual fantasy. Even if it is a PG dating game, it is still going to reflect sexuality on some level.

To address the issue of fantasy--50 shades is definitely a bad example of healthy BDSM, but it's not meant to be. That's why it's fantasy, it's all the badness without the rules, and that is why people like it. It's not that the people reading don't realize this is unacceptable behavior in real life, it's just that they get to enjoy it in their imagination where they can toss the rules out the window. The same applies to VNs.

Like you said, people have different tastes and are drawn to the medium for different reasons. Who am I to judge a guy who has a sexual fantasy of wooing a virgin girl, when mine are way more messed up? People can't just change what they are turned on by. So what if the BDSM community likes to pretend to own sex slaves that they abuse like property?

I guess the question for me comes down to this. Squeaky big eyed virgins are in high demand in fantasy games. Does that automatically mean the game makers or the audience thinks that experienced girls are worth less as human beings in real life? Or could it just reflect their personal fantasy, the same way people have a "type"?