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musical74
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#61 Post by musical74 » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:23 am

The problem with a *demo* is when the company disappears and all you have is the demo and people wondering what happened to the game...

Neophyte is a good example. There are three seperate demos that supposedly would all tie together in the *main game* - but the company went out of business and all you have are the three little games - OK maybe not so little, they are all over 10 MB - games where your character gets to point A and then gives you a scene of what supposedly would happen when you got the *true game* - which was never released! If you want to take a look at the 3 Neophyte *demos* - they really are demos because you can only go so far before it talks about the full game - check out http://www.the-underdogs.org and search for Neophyte

If the demo is something that the person doing the demo has every intention to release...I don't know...it might be a good idea to give us something to look forwards to while we wait for the final product :)
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#62 Post by Tage » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:56 am

I was thinking that putting an incomplete game (demo) in the archive is not the purpose of the archive. I thought the archive was not for promotions (which is what a demo is for). I thought the archive was kind of like a hub where any renai fan could go and download free renai games that were made by fans. Because a hub would be awesome. If you want a place for promotion, just posting a demo on some renai forum (such as this one) should be enough.

If you want to go further into why demos should not be allowed, here I go...No matter how good of an intention someone has for completing a game, there is ALWAYS the chance that something will happen in their life that makes them choose not to complete it. They may get fed up with it one day because of stress caused by something in real life. Etc Etc Etc. As stated before...if you want promotion, putting it in a forum such as this should be enough. WHEN you complete it, I would be happy if your game was put in the archive (when).

I think demos for commercial games should also not be allowed. The complete product may be a fan-made game, but you still have to pay for it. I would like an archive where I could go to download a game, play it through to the end, and have closure without having to pay for it. I'm a fan of renai games, but I have low income and would rather spend my money on other things :oops:

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#63 Post by RedSlash » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:04 am

My thought also goes against having demos. If you allowed that, then most your submitions will be demos, and rarely any full games. As you know, many ppl start off a project.. never finish it. I'd rather you have a downloadable games site, not a downloadable demos site.

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#64 Post by mikey » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:23 am

I also have to join the no-demo no-shareware crowd.

ad Demo
Confirming RedSlash's comment. The site would get filled with demos, and even good ones would probably get lost in the flood. (I keep my fingers crossed for Town Heat!)

ad Shareware
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#65 Post by Jojo » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:45 am

What about a short game that takes maybe only 15 minutes to beat but is complete story- and ending-wise? Is there a minimum content restriction here?

Also, where's the line concerning original characters? Would making a game featuring some artwork from a manga or anime be crossing the line?
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#66 Post by mikey » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:55 am

Short game>> a short game is perfectly acceptable. If you had more paths, those 15 minutes may even turn into an hour.

Original characters>> I guess the general agreement is that you can use an established character, but the story must support it. Taking Narusegawa and giving her a different name is probably not the way then.

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#67 Post by Tage » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:51 pm

On character originality:
It seems there is something further to consider here if we decide that fanfic-games are okay. The decision of whether or not artwork created by other people is allowed to be used in the game. (I think that's what Jojo wants to do)
RedSlash wrote:As for original works, I agree that the archive should be limited to original works but not limited to fan-fiction. That is, if the person composed it using ripped images, etc.. those should not be allowed. But if the person composed it themselves (that is, the work is original), effectively making "fan-fiction", I would allow those.
I'd have to partly agree. If you got permission from the creator of the artwork, I think it would be alright. And you absolutely must give them credit (unless they told you not to).

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#68 Post by PyTom » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:00 pm

There's a legal thing here too. In general, I think games should be created with either original media, or media that you have the rights to. (So no stealing music off the web.)

While fan-fiction is technically illegal, it's also widely accepted. So I don't have much of a problem with fan-fiction games that use original images, sounds, and music.

But we reserve the right to pull any game off the archive at any time, for any reason. Not like we plan to, but we need that right to be there.

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#69 Post by Tage » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:18 pm

Yah, some people stay in denial when it comes to fanfictions...It IS illegal...No matter how widely accepted it is, it doesn't make it legal. (Kind of like downloading copyrighted music off the internet) While you may get off with only a warning, it is still illegal. While they may not want to waste a lot of their money just to sue you, it is still illegal. So!!! In my opinion, either get permission from the creator of the story/character/artwork creator or make everything yourself. The thing is, people don't want to ask companies for permission because they know they probably wouldn't get it. But companies aren't the only ones with original creations. There are plenty of free original works out there by individual people, and I really think you should get permission if you plan on using it as a base for your story. After all, if it is a "fan"fiction, I would suspect you were a fan of the work (and the hard work that went into creating it). n.n;

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#70 Post by Jojo » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:48 pm

I'd like to start by saying I'm not trying to lobby for any specific reaction here.

If one isn't allowed to use another's copyrighted work without permission, does that mean that fan sites that post images from a manga or anime are technically illegal? Or is it like taping the Super Bowl--you can do what you will with it so long as you don't try to make money off of it?

If I made a game with images ripped from the manga with no intention other than letting people play it for free, would that be illegal? That's not a rhetorical question--I'm asking if anyone here knows offhand. If it is, I doubt it's worth prosecuting...I don't believe 8-Bit Theater has been touched by Square as of yet, and they actually sell their own FF merchandise.

Now, as to whether or not you'd let such a game into your archive, that's obviously 100% up to you. But would you still play such a game, or avoid it due to the use of its contents?

I'm trying to gauge the feelings of the people here on the board. I don't want to offend anyone or upset them. But I'm also trying to figure out how to make a simple game with a negative amount of artistic talent. I'm a little weird--I know my way around basic photoshop functions and can do well altering things that already are, but I have a very difficult time creating anything from scratch.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
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#71 Post by Sai » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:40 pm

In terms of legality, it really is up to the respective artist/company that originally designed the characters and so on.

It's not Japanese animation, but as an example, the people who own the Peanuts gang (Charlie Brown, Snoopy etc.) seem pretty strict. There was a fanlisting for example who simply used some official artwork in their layout and they got letters from the company requesting for the pics to be taken down due to law. Although when I donated some drawings of the Snoopy gang by me to them, that seemed to solve the issue (so far I guess). So I guess it really depends on their outlook on fan-produced works (as opposed to the original official pictures).

In Japan there is the whole "doujinshi" thing. Fanwork games, comics and so on which are actually sold for money. The official companies allow it but only to a certain extent I believe. Such as the fan-artists only being allowed to make a certain amount of copies (which adds a sense of rarity to things apparently).

In terms of non-profit stuff, you probably won't get any fuss from the company and even if you did, they would forewarn you with a letter or something I assume. As I said though, it depends on the individual wishes of the artist.

I don't think you would offend anyone outside of the original artist/company.

I think in terms of the final product though, in the long run, using another persons artwork and base story would mainly hurt originality. To some that's a bigger deal than others.

Some doujin games are as good as the official works sometimes though.

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#72 Post by PyTom » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:27 pm

First of all, let me say that I am not a lawyer. So don't think of this as legal advice. Blah, blah, blah.
Jojo wrote: If one isn't allowed to use another's copyrighted work without permission, does that mean that fan sites that post images from a manga or anime are technically illegal?
I believe that in the case of a fan site, it depends on exactly how the images would be used. An image gallery is probably a no-no, as it's just infringing copyright. If the images are used to illustrate an original article, than it might be fair use, especially if you could argue that the use is educational in nature.

Another test for fair use is substantiality... how much of the work is used. It might be fair to take a few panels from a Manga, but not the whole work.
Or is it like taping the Super Bowl--you can do what you will with it so long as you don't try to make money off of it?
That's actually not true. It's illegal for me to give you a copy of my tape of the superbowl, for example. The for- or non-profit nature of the work doesn't matter when determining if copyright infringment has occured. (IIRC, it may be considered when assessing penalties... but I'm not totally sure about this.)
If I made a game with images ripped from the manga with no intention other than letting people play it for free, would that be illegal?
Yes.

That would be a derivative work, and derivative works are illegal without the permission of the orginal author. Assuming the game is serious, it doesn't qualify as fair use. And so, it's illegal to make it without the permission of the copyright holders.

If it was a parody, then it would be legal... parody is considered fair use, since most people won't consent to having their works parodied. But the parody needs to be of the work... it's not fair use to use copyrighted characters to parody something else. The Penny Arcade guys got in trouble for this a while back.
Now, as to whether or not you'd let such a game into your archive, that's obviously 100% up to you. But would you still play such a game, or avoid it due to the use of its contents?
If the game interested me, then I wouldn't have a problem playing it, in the same way I have no problem with fansubs or fanfics. But all three are illegal, and it's important to know that. (Even if I may not like that law.)
I'm trying to gauge the feelings of the people here on the board. I don't want to offend anyone or upset them. But I'm also trying to figure out how to make a simple game with a negative amount of artistic talent. I'm a little weird--I know my way around basic photoshop functions and can do well altering things that already are, but I have a very difficult time creating anything from scratch.
I was that way a year ago, but with practice I've gotten to the point where I can draw, if not well, at least well enough to attempt an original game. So don't give up so easily... it's not like learning another language or something. :-)

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#73 Post by Tage » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:55 pm

I would play the game if it's fun. I'm dying to play a certain fanfic-game (not renai). I have watched fansubs in the past. I have read fanfictions too. They are all entertaining. Maybe I have no morals in this area (or quite the opposite), but I wouldn't mind a fanfic-game if it were properly documented. In your game, I think you should also say that you are in no way affiliated with the creators of the characters and such.

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#74 Post by RedSlash » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:15 am

I am not a laywer neither, but I can confirm what PyTom said is most likely to be correct from my knowledge. It doesn't matter about the non-commercial nature of the copied work. The "All Rights Reserved" means that the creator has all rights over his/her works include control over derivative works a.k.a. your fan sites and fan fiction.

Three day care centers were forced to remove paintings of Mickey mouse on the wall cause it infringed on Disney's copyright. Girl scouts can't sing "Kumbaya" in camp without the camp paying royalties. Its absurd, I know.. but thats how things are.

Copyright stuff sucks which is why I prefer to license work under the Creative Commons (http://www.creativecommons.org/), which is a customizable license you can give to people to reduce restrictions to your work. You only have "Some Rights Reserved"allowing people to make fan fiction of your work without people having to ask your permission, while maintaining other rights.

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#75 Post by PyTom » Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:08 am

RedSlash wrote:I am not a laywer neither, but I can confirm what PyTom said is most likely to be correct from my knowledge. It doesn't matter about the non-commercial nature of the copied work. The "All Rights Reserved" means that the creator has all rights over his/her works include control over derivative works a.k.a. your fan sites and fan fiction.
Actually, ISTR that since the Berne convention, the default is to have a new work be copyright, with all rights being reserved. So it's no longer necessary to write "All Rights Reserved" on anything, and those words now have no legal meaning. (In the US, at least.)
Three day care centers were forced to remove paintings of Mickey mouse on the wall cause it infringed on Disney's copyright.
Although this has passed into urban legend status, it is True, at least according to Snopes. There was at least some aspect of trademark law as well, which says you have to defend a trademark, or else you risk losing it.
Girl scouts can't sing "Kumbaya" in camp without the camp paying royalties. Its absurd, I know.. but thats how things are.
Ditto "Happy Birthday". There was a great episode of (IIRC) "Sports Night" where one of the hosts sings "Happy Birthday" to the other one on the air, and the show gets hit with a bill for a few thousand dollars. So he spends the rest of the episode figuring out what public domain music to sing to people on their birthdays.
Copyright stuff sucks which is why I prefer to license work under the Creative Commons (http://www.creativecommons.org/), which is a customizable license you can give to people to reduce restrictions to your work. You only have "Some Rights Reserved"allowing people to make fan fiction of your work without people having to ask your permission, while maintaining other rights.
Well, the precise details of the CC licenses varies. Some allow derivative works (including fanfiction), while some don't. The granularity is also fairly hight. I personally will probably release works using a license that doesn't allow such works, so I can retain control over how people use my stuff. I would allow fanfiction if asked, for example, but I wouldn't want people using my character art to represent other characters in a flash hentai game.

I'm also strongly thinking of turning American Bishoujo into a real corporation, even though I'm not sure why. :-)
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