New Term for Visual Novels? [split]

[trooper6]

Daily reminder that in grorious Nippon, VNs are often referred to as ADV (adventure) games--which is what they are. KNs are basically glorified comic books, whereas VNs with choices are basically ADVs with branching linear storylines.

What sets VNs and KNs apart from the typical adventure game, however, is a heavy focus on visuals, and therefore deserves its own categorization.

And before anyone calls The Walking Dead a VN, read this: http://weeaboo.nl/2013/01/the-walking-d ... al-novels/

I think weeaboo's definition of VN is mostly influenced by what Japanese VNs do. But there has been a development of EVNs that are not modeled after Japanese VNs. I think Walking Dead can certainly fall on the edges of a Western VN, which are more related to Adventure games. In the same way that classic Japanese RPGs and classic Western RPGs are very different animals coming from very different traditions, but it wouldn't be fair to say that Japanese RPGs are really RPGs because they don't conform to western RPG norms or vice versa.

I think inclusivity is good.

[Asceai]

And before anyone calls The Walking Dead a VN, read this: http://weeaboo.nl/2013/01/the-walking-d ... al-novels/

I think weeaboo's definition of VN is mostly influenced by what Japanese VNs do. But there has been a development of EVNs that are not modeled after Japanese VNs.

That article does seem a bit silly. The focus on the 'novel' part (part of why the term novel is problematic, but oh well) and a close-minded view of what level of interactivity is permitted add up to a pretty shallow case.

First of all, the fact that it's just voice unless you turn subtitles on - so? I guess School Days isn't a VN either then. IIRC the oldest versions of School Days didn't even have optional subtitles- they were patched in later. So going by the text definition School Days was even less of a VN than The Walking Dead.

Second, the point and click aspects. If we went by this YU-NO and select other works wouldn't be VNs either. The proportionality isn't a particularly valid argument either- there's gameplay VNs that would hit 50%, but we don't say they aren't VNs.

Because VN is a medium, not a genre, whatever you try to define as the characterising aspects of a VN, there will be some title that is an exception to them. If it doesn't exist already, someone will make it out of spite. Really, it's more about the intersect between the design of the narrative, the nature of user participation and the multimedia presentation, and at the edges the lines between VNs and other mediums is blurred, but so what? That's the case with any other medium too.

[trooper6]

Because VN is a medium, not a genre, whatever you try to define as the characterising aspects of a VN, there will be some title that is an exception to them. If it doesn't exist already, someone will make it out of spite. Really, it's more about the intersect between the design of the narrative, the nature of user participation and the multimedia presentation, and at the edges the lines between VNs and other mediums is blurred, but so what? That's the case with any other medium too.

I agree with this 100%.

Further so many media and/or genre titles are not the best...because they are often marketing categories, or historical artifacts...or who knows what else? We can can just do our best work to expand definitions of our terms to make them work better what is happening...including the blurry edges.

[mugenjohncel]

"ehem"

For the sake of world peace... May I suggest the beautiful classic (almost historical) term "OELVN" (pronunciation: Oh-eh-el-bee-en) to encompass every known English Made Visual Novel... may it be Kinetic of Branching or even Looping... I mean, it's such a beautiful word... it's so complex yet so simple to remember... better than that ugly EVN (yuck!) word

"POOF" (Hides and waits)

[DaFool]

"ehem"

For the sake of world peace... May I suggest the beautiful classic (almost historical) term "OELVN" (pronunciation: Oh-eh-el-bee-en) to encompass every known English Made Visual Novel... may it be Kinetic of Branching or even Looping... I mean, it's such a beautiful word... it's so complex yet so simple to remember... better than that ugly EVN (yuck!) word

"POOF" (Hides and waits)

Indeed. Even the esteemed translators Sekai Project use this term to describe their project https://sekaiproject.com/portfolio/sakura-spirit/

You know just how in such high regard JVN translators regard the term OELVN (in general).

[Greeny]

As a high schooler transported into a fantasy world where fox girls and humans collide in a battle of wits.

Yes, it seems oelvn is exactly what we need to get away from the image of Japanese dating games and spread out into the western audiences.

Anyways, a good point has been raised that the "novel" part of the term is just as problematic, if not more so, than the "visual" part. I think it's important to keep in mind that the term doesn't have to be all-descriptive, 100% clear.

I'm just going to go ahead and suggest something comepletely new: Digital Narrative.
That covers just about everything, it has a nice ring to it, it doesn't have any words that could cause it to be confused with another medium and yes, it can be used to describe adventure games if the story is more of a focus than the gameplay.

We're living in the Digital Age, and right now the word "digital" by itself already implies visuals, sound and interaction.
If nobody has any meaningful objections to this one, I might just start campaigning.

[Vatina]

I don't think this is a good idea. The term "visual novel" is finally becoming one that the general populace will recognise. Also a Visual Novel will encompass any console or genre, while "touch novel" sounds strange and way too specific, as definitely not all will go the way of smart phones, and the other terms are moving away from being simple to say and remember.

I'd much rather keep VN, EVN or OELVN. People know what they are getting into. There is no need to add "kinetic novel" even, just make sure mention clearly if the novel is interactive or not.

If you are doing something vastly different with your game, then feel free to label it as you wish of course. The sky is the limit.

[Donmai]

There is no need to add "kinetic novel" even, just make sure mention clearly if the novel is interactive or not.

Why? Please define 'interactive'. Somebody asked me if Li'l red is a KN or not. It has choices, but...
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 08#p322708
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 35#p257035
I'm a storyteller, not a gamemaker.

[SundownKid]

The issue with Digital Narrative and Interactive Story is that they can also used to refer to Interactive Fiction (IF) which is another genre. IF usually doesn't have visuals and therefore "Visual Novel" suggests something different than Interactive Fiction.

[Cith]

Daily reminder that in grorious Nippon, VNs are often referred to as ADV (adventure) games--which is what they are. KNs are basically glorified comic books, whereas VNs with choices are basically ADVs with branching linear storylines.

What sets VNs and KNs apart from the typical adventure game, however, is a heavy focus on visuals, and therefore deserves its own categorization.

Adventure games have 3 things. A narrative framework, within which contains puzzles and explorative gameplay. If they don't have these 3 things, they aren't adventure games. Puzzles can refer to many different types of puzzles, dialogue puzzles or logic puzzles ala the Ace Attorney games. So VNs aren't adventure games, and neither are KNs.

[SundownKid]

Visual novels are a sub-genre of adventure games, as seen in the Wiki article. However, Kinetic novels are definitely not adventure games, or games. They are more like motion comics.

[Cith]

And on the Visual Novel Wiki, there is a clear distinction drawn between visual novels and adventure games. This is a pretty nice example of why people shouldn't put their faith in wiki . Good for quick information, but never 100% reliable.

The visual novel section was probably added into the Adventure wiki by someone who either didn't have a clear understanding of what adventure games are, or was going by Japanese definitions, which seems to differ from Western definitions. It's a little absurd, even wiki states in the article that the essential elements for adventure games includes exploration (I'm kinda surprised, but they probably nicked it from somewhere else) and yet someone whacked a couple of paragraphs in describing visual novels just under it......

To be a sub-genre, you first have to meet all the criteria OF that genre. VNs don't. Not by western definitions anyway.

[Greeny]

The issue with Digital Narrative and Interactive Story is that they can also used to refer to Interactive Fiction (IF) which is another genre. IF usually doesn't have visuals and therefore "Visual Novel" suggests something different than Interactive Fiction.

I think that's a moot point. Against "Digital Narrative" anyways. First off, there's no word overlap with Interactive Fiction , and a quick Google search reveals there's nothing significant it would be confused with. Secondly, text adventures aren't exactly widely made anymore. The main reason for their original existance is the lack of computing power of the time, and more recently the nostalgia factor (or a lack of available art talent). If anything, Interactive Fiction is the mother of the "visual novel". Not to mention, the wiki page for IF even suggests it's used to refer to adventure games as well, when the interaction is not point-and-click but text commands.

Finally, it doesn't matter what "Visual Novel" suggests, not when we want to change the term exactly because it suggests the wrong things. Sure, the visuals play a large part in most examples of the medium but it's not like you can't say IF could be an outlier of the same medium. Same core concept, just missing a few elements.

I'd go as far as to say that you could produce a "visual novel" with no text or interaction at all, only animated visuals and sound, and I'd consider it the same medium as well (on the sole premise of a click-to-continue to distinguish it from just being a film). Sure, it would be an outlier, but that's what you get with art.

[papillon]

Secondly, text adventures aren't exactly widely made anymore.

Neither are VNs in the English world. There's still a dedicated hobbyist scene, and the rise of Twine and certain other kinds of browser games consider themselves more related to interactive fiction than to us.

Now, it makes perfect sense to say that these are all part of the same larger umbrella of game types, and that one SHOULD count as a subset of the other, but when players often want one or the other specifically they're going to want more specific terms.

[Vatina]

There is no need to add "kinetic novel" even, just make sure mention clearly if the novel is interactive or not.

Why? Please define 'interactive'. Somebody asked me if Li'l red is a KN or not. It has choices, but...
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 08#p322708
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 35#p257035
I'm a storyteller, not a gamemaker.

Kinetic Novel was originally something Visual Arts used for some of their games, to call them something different than the rest, until people began to generally think of it as "vns without choices". If you want to use that, or find another whole new name for your things in particular, then you can. You determine if it is interactive enough.

There is no point in beginning to determine what makes a 'game' though, as every person has their own definition.

I just don't believe in changing the general term for a whole group of people's medium, since all it will do is confuse those on the outside looking in, before they even found out how to find these things in the first place.