Length of the game determines the price?

[fruitionpaper]

I'm trying to figure out how to price my games. Reading over how gamers feel about it plus how I feel about playing games, one of the most common complaints I've read is the length/replay value. I'm wondering if the length of a visual novel would determine it's worth...

Here's my pricing plan, feel free to tear it apart:

Under 2 hours = PWYW

5 - 15 hours = $5 to $10 dollars

+40 hours = $20 dollars

Also, figuring in the quality of the art, complex gameplay, quality of the story, etc. is going to be subjective. Stuff like that is different for each developer which is why I didn't factor those issues into the pricing. What would you folks do differently?

[Omniknight]

I think we can help you much more efficiently (and accurately too) if you link us to a WIP thread or a demo...

[Tempus]

I would be willing to pay $10 or more for media that occupies me less than an hour. It's all about how much value that media adds to my life. If it's just some "fun" game (rather questionable as to whether being occupied by a Skinner box crammed with filler content is fun, but that's another story) then yes, it makes sense for the price to scale with the time it occupies you. But if the media adds value to your life beyond just the window of time that you're engaging with it, I think it makes sense to charge based on the total value it offers to your life, rather than the time spent engaging with it. And yes, that's going to be subjective, but the OP fails to recognise that all pricing is subjective and makes assumptions about what is and isn't valuable, including the price scaling with playtime metric.

[gekiganwing]

Reading over how gamers feel about it plus how I feel about playing games, one of the most common complaints I've read is the length/replay value. I'm wondering if the length of a visual novel would determine it's worth...

During the '90s, I mostly played lengthy, time-consuming games. I started the decade in junior high, and finished it in college. I didn't have many other hobbies or interests.

I'm now an adult, and I don't have unlimited time any longer. I'm employed, and I spend other time getting outside for modest exercise, attending meetup groups, and catching up with people. If I play a video game at all, it's likely going to be during a break or a commute.

Also, figuring in the quality of the art, complex gameplay, quality of the story, etc. is going to be subjective. Stuff like that is different for each developer which is why I didn't factor those issues into the pricing. What would you folks do differently?

There are some superficial things that I like in video games and VNs. I might purchase one if I find its art personally appealing and its premise intriguing. What does it take to hold my attention? I have to care about the characters, plot, and world. Gameplay is something I enjoy, but I'll usually give up if it's too tough to understand, or too frustrating.

I think that a good tale can be told in ten minutes (as in several experimental indie games), in 60-90 minutes (many movies and some TV shows), or a few hours. Overall, I believe that you will benefit by focusing on creating an interesting story, and playtesting any relevant gameplay.

[Asceai]

During the '90s, I mostly played lengthy, time-consuming games. I started the decade in junior high, and finished it in college. I didn't have many other hobbies or interests.

I'm now an adult, and I don't have unlimited time any longer. I'm employed, and I spend other time getting outside for modest exercise, attending meetup groups, and catching up with people. If I play a video game at all, it's likely going to be during a break or a commute.

One of the things I like about VNs is that, in their modern form, they are the epitome of 'pick up and play'. You can reload, play for any amount of time, save and quit. While I typically won't try to play a video game if I don't have time for a good session due to loading times, the need to get into the 'zone' for playing (especially with difficult games) not necessarily limitless saving etc. a VN can take up any amount of time I have free. The only issue with long titles is that, if the sessions are short enough, you can get a feeling that the story isn't really going anywhere, but well-written VNs mostly avoid this.

I think quality - story, production values, voice acting, everything - has a much stronger bearing on whether I think a game is worth its price or not. I'm happy to pay $100+ for a VN, but there's a certain expectation of quality attached to that.

I really like long-form stories though, personally. If you can manage to avoid skimping on the other factors, as far as I'm concerned you can keep pumping hours into it pretty much endlessly. I've never played a 200-hour VN but I'm willing to try! If I'm enjoying the story I never want it to end.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I agree with many of the above in that Quality trumps Length.

As gekiganwing points out, the age of your demographic is going to have a big impact too on how they view game length. Young people and teens with lots of time and limited income are going to LOVE lengthy games. Adults with lots of income and limited time are going to HATE lengthy games.

I'm more than willing to pay more money for a quality experience over one that pads things with filler for length. I used to love JRPGs when I was younger. Now they annoy me. And it has nothing to do with game mechanics, or characters, or silly elements. It is their ridiculous need to keep unfolding the storyline like an accordion, with twists and side-stories and false endings. As a busy adult, finishing a 30 hour game is a real accomplishment, and likely took me several weeks of just playing on weekends. So when it turns out there is a whole another Act after what I thought was the end of the play feels like a slap in the face, rather than the treat it would be for someone with lots of time. If I DO finish the game by some miracle, I'll have forgotten what the storyline actual was, because while a teen might have had the time to beat the game in a week or two, it's taken me months, and I can't keep the story hyrdra straight in my memories of scattered play sessions.

So a short, vivid, fun experience is key to earning my money and love. 5-6 hours is ideal. It means I can finish the game in a single week, whether an hour a night or in a game jam session on the weekend. Replay is great, but not required. I have disposable income, so I can move on to the Next Best Thing. Give me something great, and I'll give you money for it. But at this stage of my life, advertising "X Amount of Hours of Gameplay" on the box is likely to turn me away more than it'll attract me.

I've become ... "Old".

[DaFool]

Episodic = $5 no ifs, no buts. The creator has not fully committed to finishing the game, thus I am not fully committed to investing any more than a really expensive starbucks shake.

$10 for 1 hour? Yes, if the content is spectacular. Otherwise 2-10 is expected.

My best experiences have been $7.99 Nintendo eshop games that had experiences from 2-7 hours, perfect for a weekend evening. And guess what? I vividly remember the games better than some JRPGs I spent 100+ hours on.

[trooper6]

Hm. That is tricky, because what I'm willing to pay really depends on a number of factors.

For example, if you are a mainstream large company putting out a AAA game that costs $50-60 and that game lasts 10hrs? I'm not going to buy the game and I'll be irritated. I want my AAA $40 game to be at least 20 hours. I don't really budge on that one.

Now if you are an indie game...that will depend again. Generally for indies my price points tends to max out at $20 and that is if the game is long or has lots of replay value. I tend to follow DaFool for indies: $10 for 1hr if the content is spectacular, otherwise 2-10 is expected.
Episodic? $2 unless I think the quality is amazing, in which case I'll go up to $5.
VNs? I am hesitant to pay for VNs in general because a lot of the quality is, eh. But I will if reviews tell me the quality is excellent and if the game doesn't use generic anime art.

All of that said--here are my two big VN/indie exceptions.

I think that spending money within a capitalist system is political. So. If an indie/VN developer is doing something I find politically important, or if they represent something I find politically important, or if they are doing something aesthetically or conceptually envelope-pushing then I will pay for their game--even if it is quite short, or if the quality is...medium...rather than excellent. For example. It is important to me that women and minorities are represented in gaming. So if a game deals with issues of gender, sexuality, race, etc in a progressive way--I will buy the game to support that. If the game makers are members of a gender, sexual, or racial minority? I'll buy the game. Is the game feminist? I'll buy the game. If the game is a VN that is using an unconventional aesthetic or a non-typical genre? I'll buy the game.

Second exception? If the developer has developed goodwill with me, I will buy their work. For example, I really like Cyanide Tea...for many reasons. They are women, thus adding to diversity in the gaming industry. Their first game that I played The Elevator, had a non-traditional aesthetic, it was a non-traditional genre, and was also really well done. Their dating sim game Restaurante Amore was a great deconstruction of a genre I don't particularly like and included racial and sexuality diversity while also having complex female characters. Also, I have played a number of their games that they put out for free. So, they have built up a lot of good will with me. Which means that I gave them money for Nachtigal and I'll certainly buy Break Chance Momento whatever it is about no matter how long it is.

[KomiTsuku]

Being 100% truthful, $20 for a 40+ hr VN is an absolute scam for the developer. Let's break this down by numbers for a 40 hour visual novel.

Wordcount: Last time I remembered, we estimated the average reading speed to be about 15,000 to 20,000 an hour. At 20k an hour x 40 hours, that long of a visual novel is 800,000 words. The average paperback novel is about 80k-100k. The average cost of a paperback is about $8.

$64-80 if I were to sell just the writing as books.

CG Art: I recently went to AF and took note of the average cost of a print of an image. It's about $5-10 for a mid-low tier print. At 40 hrs length, I'm probably going to be pushing at least 80 CG. That's realistically a low number, but I'm the super stringent developer and I'm minimizing my art assets.

That's $400-800 if I were to sell just the prints alone.

Music: At 40 hrs, music can get a bit repetitious. I'm going to be keeping the soundtrack at about 30-40 songs to keep things at least slightly original. Mind you, that's still only about 2 hours of unique music in the 40 hours. That's about two music CDs.

Hitting that $20 mark for music being sold alone.

There's also a lot of things that couldn't be sold individually. Sprites, GUI, backgrounds, programming, ect are very hard if they were to be individually sold. However, they are very pricey for the developer. They're not an easily ignorable expense for a 40 hour game.

In short, people expect so very, very, very much for what basically equates to severe discounts in other mediums. Then you are expected to put it on sale and the cost is driven even further below the actual worth of the product being delivered. A 40 hour visual novel is worth a $50-60 price tag. The sad thing is that people are so wrapped up in the mentality that everything should be free or super cheap that it would never sell at what it is worth.

[Anne]

Your customers don't have to worry about your expenses. And when you can get a game like Hakuoki for the same price as a game like Heileen (or like Blue Rose which is much better but still) "very cheap" is the last thing I'd call original English VNs.

[KomiTsuku]

Your customers don't have to worry about your expenses. And when you can get a game like Hakuoki for the same price as a game like Heileen (or like Blue Rose which is much better but still) "very cheap" is the last thing I'd call original English VNs.

You are correct in saying customers don't have to worry about your expenses. While you should factor development costs into prices (if a game cost $10,000 to develop and I expect to sell 1,000 copies, a wise person would not sell it for less than $10 after cuts have been taken or find a way to drive down costs), my point was simply comparing the average price for a sold object in other fields compared to the combined price sold in visual novels. Hakuoki also has been out for 6 years, there by driving the price down. Still, it is being sold at an incredibly low price for the amount of content being provided. The market cannot support this indefinitely, though that situation is primarily traditional video gaming at the moment. But that is an argument for another day, another thread. For now, my point is simply just length is a factor in price and $20 for that much content is too low.

[trooper6]

. For now, my point is simply just length is a factor in price and $20 for that much content is too low.

That depends on what you are comparing VNs to.

If you compare them to films and television then your numbers end up different.
I move costs around $10 for around 2hrs. And if it is a blockbuster, then the production costs will be crazy. But I'm still only spending $10 for it...and that is if I go out to the theatre for the full audio/visual experience. I can rent the film for $3. If I'm comparing that rented film to that video game...all of a sudden it makes no sense to spend $40 on a 2hr video game.

If I compare it to TV...then things get not so good indeed. TV is free on broadcast as long as I sit through some commercials.
I can buy DVD compilations of entire seasons for about $20...for about 20 hrs of experience. And that falls quite in line with a lot of video game prices as well.

But in the end, prices are based on what the market can bear and not a lot of people want to pay $60 for a 2hr video game. Or $10 for 1 hr.

[Holland]

1 movie costs around $10 for around 2hrs. And if it is a blockbuster, then the production costs will be crazy. But I'm still only spending $10 for it...and that is if I go out to the theatre for the full audio/visual experience. I can rent the film for $3.

The audience has to be taken into consideration. A movie is expected to have tens of thousands of people purchase it or watch it, plus revenue from merchandise and advertisements, so it can afford to be that low. Visual novels, on the other hand, are a very niche genre of video games with a relatively small audience, especially in the indie market. You also mixed your numbers up:

$20 for a 40+ hr VN is an absolute scam for the developer.

If I'm comparing that rented film to that video game...all of a sudden it makes no sense to spend $40 on a 2hr video game.

Now, let's put that into perspective with the actual numbers. You're saying $10/2 hours for a movie is reasonable, correct? That means $5/1hr. That much an hour for forty hours means the game should cost around $200 per person! Even if we took the lower number you gave, $3/2hr, so $1.50/hr, and put it into perspective with a 40 hour game... annd look, you're still saying the game should be worth $60 per person at 40 hours of gameplay.

If I compare it to TV...then things get not so good indeed. TV is free on broadcast as long as I sit through some commercials.

That's not free at all. You're giving them about 20% of the time you spend to watch advertisements. Time is money. Not to mention paying for the subscription to those channels each month through your service provider.

I can buy DVD compilations of entire seasons for about $20...for about 20 hrs of experience.

Wha... Hold on just one second here. Where on Earth are you buying newly released season-long compilations for $20 by DVD?
I want to get in on that action.

[Tyrantauranox]

Assuming that the demo is of professional quality, and more importantly to my liking- I'd be willing to pay around double your numbers. Honestly, I don't really research length much before buying.

[DaFool]

Reason why VNs and anime merchandise are priced so high (especially in Japan) is because no matter how much you lower the price, there is a limit on the number of people who would buy it.

You could try going mainstream like network television but they do a lot of market research and focus group testing, not to mention they axe programs that don't deliver immediately.

There is a reason why so many marginalized people and minorities flock to visual novels and interactive fiction (within the larger bro-focused gaming culture). It is accessible, and you can get your project done, even if only 1000 people download it.

Which is good enough for me.

Also, if you factor in customer/technical support, making games is a net drain on a developer:

http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574