Help with game... content?

[monele]

Me needs helps!

Well... I'm probably just being emo here but I'd like to see if people have an idea ^^;

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2 ... n_the_.php

You don't have to read the above, I'll summarize it here, so it's mostly for reference.
This article is about general game designing, so it might not be totally relevant for a regular VN, but I'm going for something a bit different... and I think it could also be somewhat applyable to story creation. So... the article summarizes design in these steps :
- Concept
- Context
- Core : features & content
- Mechanics
- Verbs

Concept is usually what I've always started with. Stating in a quick sentence what the game/story is about : "You're the manager of a magical-potion-making shop and you give orders to your employees to gather ingredients and brew said potions to sell to your customers". Of course, it's usually easy to come up with cool sounding concepts...

Context, according to the article (and my interpretation), is the setting, the characters involved, etc... All the "wrapping". Basically, if not for the "potion making" which is usually in a fantasy setting, MagBou could have taken place in the future and potions replaced with biochemicals. Or in the modern days, in a pharmacology setting. Basically, context gives the flavor and it can be very important. I know I wouldn't be thrilled by MagBou in the future, but MagBou fantasy sounds fun. On that part, again, I usually don't have a problem.

Features & content. Features would be a bullet list of what the game is about in details... but not too much detail . "Gather ingredients, brew ingredients into potions, sell to customers. Employees' morale affects how well they work. Employees can use vehicles to move faster.", etc...
Content would be about items, characters, locations... "Forest, Plains, Lake, Framboise, Pom, Fennel, Berries".

Mechanics and Verbs is the part I had trouble visualizing properly. But I think in MagBou, to keep that example, it would describe the "gather, brew, sell, pay employees" loop and maybe how morale and quests work.


So, where do I need help? Well uh... the more I think about it, the less I'm confident about this XD... Basically, it's mostly about the "content" part. The heart, the meat of it all, basically :/... The *story* part of it all >.>... Whenever I leave the "mechanical" part of design, the ground starts getting muddy and I have trouble moving forward. I have broad ideas of character types and roles, some "examples" of what could happen in the story... and usually, that's it.
I think I would have no trouble putting together a game presentation where everything is theoric, illustrated by a few cool examples, but making the whole thing? Urg :/...

If it was not obvious by now, MagBou 2 is on hold. Everything seemed fine... the *concept* worked in my head... but once I got to the point where I had to fill the jug with stuff, well... nothing. After a few days of nothing, I happened to go back to some old games, hoping inspiration would come back. It did, recently. I came up with another concept, context, features, mechanics...... and once again, blank. No real idea for content past that.
It's getting really frustrating as I obviously love to create, but can (almost) never come up with anything *complete*.

I'm thinking maybe I should just stop trying and just provide what I can provide : concepts. Are there people out there interested in this? People who are good at creating content but never have the jug to pour that content into? I dunno... *tired*

[papillon]

Unfortunately, I think most people are better at concepts than at the work of filling them. See the ideas dump thread - or see any game making forum and the influx of kids who come in with "I have a GREAT IDEA for a game. I'll tell you the outline and you make it for me!"

I find that collaborating really is helpful. Not *group* design - the perils of design-by-committee are often joked about - but just having SOMEBODY other than yourself to bounce ideas off of. Somebody to explain your ideas to, who will then ask you questions about them or come up with suggestions that are totally 'wrong' to you - which helps you realise what is 'right' to you. I'm not sure how many of D's suggestions actually made it into Fatal Hearts, but there was often a lot of "No, no, that's not right! ... But maybe if I..."

And of course, fooling around and roleplaying the characters with a partner can make dialog faster?

[monele]

I guess it all comes down to this after all, eh? ^^;
Yeah, I suppose I just need a hand to jump over the hurdles... but I can probably work on my own in between hurdles . I just tend to hesitate about asking for help. First because I keep thinking "maybe if I don't talk about the project to anyone, it'll be better" (because I'm ashamed of all the publically known unfinished projects ^^;...), and because I don't want to prevent what would obviously be a friend interested in the game from actually enjoying the game... which might prove hard if they know pretty much everything o_O... Especially if they help find plot twists and stuff >.>... (but then maybe they're writing the story more than I am? ^^;...)

[Adorya]

It's safe to inspect famous cases in order to create your own story. Start from a concept then narrow it down or expand it : power up shonen > ninja > counter strike = Naruto (or harem shonen > epic star war > Harry Potter = Negima). In those, the objective is clear (find relative, set his own way of life, create the ultimate Ren'Pan...)

You can also start from a world with several rules then create inside stories and play (or twist) with the rules in order to make the story interesting, which is interesting especially when you already have a gameplay set. Typical exemple is in Fate/Stay Night, one character is supposed to be an archer and when he enter the stage for the 1st time he uses dual blades; or objective of the game is at first to win a competition, but at the end the prize will have to be destroyed, in order to break a doomed system.

You can also avoid completely the epic part and make a peaceful non romantic setting, leading to humorous tidbits of life and emphasize some values of life.

[monele]

As I said, I don't think I have a problem with finding a concept. The most recent one is "protagonist is stuck in a haunted manor inhabited by a peaceful family of four (ghosts, of course). The protagonist will have to go back and forth a dark mirror to reach the "dark sides" of these four and help them fix some psychological issue."
It's a mix between Darkseed, I Have no Mouth and I Must Scream and NWN's Eternum series. A bit of creepy, a bit of psychology and bit of adventure/puzzle. I'm pretty sure it should be fun but I'm having problems with coherence, as usual. "Why this, why that". I have a hard time finding what could be the psychological issue for two out of four and I'm not even sure yet what the puzzles could be (since I need the issue to base the puzzles on it :p).
I've been replaying NWN's Eternum series to see how the author managed to make it all "roll" and seem natural. I don't want players to think "why am I doing this?". For example : why does the protagonist go to the haunted mansion... why does he stay since it's haunted... why does he help instead of just trying to flee?... (I have a few possible answers for these but nothing final)

To sum it up : "what happens?" and "why does it happen that way?". That's the tough part for me ^^;...

[papillon]

In cliche, one goes to a haunted mansion because:

1. You've just inherited it. (Or a friend has and they've invited you along.)
2. You are somehow stranded/in need and this was the closest place you could find. ('Car broke down' being the obvious one)
3. "What do you MEAN it's a broken-down old house? I was told it was a holiday resort! And I'm signed up for a whole week here..."
4. Dare.

To be more unusual, I might use a plothook in which the PC is looking for a particular individual (to deliver something? to arrest someone?) and arrives at this strange location and keeps being given the runaround by the inhabitants refusing to tell you exactly who/where your target is. Perhaps constantly insisting that your target will be right back, just have some tea and wait...

[M12]

Do you have trouble with the content technically? Because:

"protagonist is stuck in a haunted manor inhabited by a peaceful family of four (ghosts, of course). The protagonist will have to go back and forth a dark mirror to reach the "dark sides" of these four and help them fix some psychological issue."
Sounds kind of like the contents as well. What is the content =O? Is it things like, how the game will actually run?

Hmm... *tired as well*

[monele]

Eheh, I went with 2° at first ^^. I've seen it used so often in CYOA books XD. For that particular plot question, I've actually thought of something less cliché, yet probably also cliché now that it's been used a few times (though probably not in that particular setting). Of course, it leads to other plot questions that I don't have the answer to ^^;.

ML : No, no. Technical problem is not really my concern. Well, I'll probably need backgrounds and music but otherwise, I can create graphics and code the whole thing. No, the problem is really with the story content. What I've given is usually called a synopsis (a synopsis doesn't have to reveal the *whole* story right?). It's more of a guideline for the future content than the content itself. The content itself would be... what is the first scene, what can do you in the mansion at first, who are the characters, what will they say when you talk to them, what kind of actions will you be able to do in the mansion, what is their issue, how to "fix" it, what happens if you don't fix it (if it's a path I allow), what happens if you do, what's the ending(s)?
See, there's a lot of things to answer before you could say my game story is complete .

It's okay as long as I'm in the concept phase. Ideas keep coming because there's still a lot to say and it's still very vague... things such as "it would be nice if there's the father, the mother, the daughter and the son". There's no real logic behind that kind of thought at that point. I'm just thinking "it sounds like it would be cool that way". I also imagined a few rooms of the mansion... imagined how the dark versions of the character would probably be cool too (looking into gothic/punk styles). I have nothing precise at that point, only vague ideas, feelings... things I'd like.
Then, I get to the point where I have to think about what the psychological issues could be. As I said, two came rather spontaneously. A bit of thinking and I even had a possible "solution" to these issues (how to heal their minds if you will). But even this healing method is still vague. For example, if one of them was terribly afraid of fire, the solution could be "teach them how not to fear it by having them face their fear". Ok, that's still conceptual.
And now, I reach the part where I need to imagine what the hell the player will have to do in the game to do just that. Start a fire? ^^;... (it's just an example, so don't dig on that one in particular). And many other questions that revolve about what will happen during the hour or two that the game lasts.
That's what I call content as opposed to, let's say... outlines

To be honest, I'm also rather lazy. I love my inspiration boosts because things come naturally. Just thinking about it, noting cool stuff down and it's all yay. But once I want to turn it into something real, thick, alive... I need to think . And as someone once said... "thinking... baaad!"

[Vatina]

So in the end you need to team up with a sort of a writer for your project perhaps? Give him/her the guidelines/synopsis and let them flesh it out for you?

[monele]

It would probably work that way, yes... but what papillon said is right : I probably just need someone to bounce ideas off. Discussing the various problems I have would probably lead to new ideas and once all these walls are down, I could probably go on writing/imagining the rest.
To use some metaphor, imagine that I'm facing a wall too high for me to climb (because I'm bad at climbing walls), so I need someone to push me up so I can go past the wall and keep walking. I don't think I want to stay in front of the wall while someone else climbs it and goes on without me

[Fawkes - Feathered Melody]

I gave the article a quick glance over, and I thought it was interesting.

My current projects are linear and noninteractive, so I don't have as much experience with interactive game design. However, I'm not really sure I'd be comfortable working from one side to the other. The concepts and the verbs are opposite sides of game design: one is more related to "art/writing/ideas" while the other is more related to "math/programming/logic." If (and as I intend to sometime) I wanted to draft a plan for something interactive, I would start with both concepts and verbs and work towards converging on content from both sides. This way you know both the answer to "What am I doing this for?" (I'd relate concept in our case more to the theme of a piece. What message does one want to convey) and "How am I going to do this?" (Which I would relate to what can the player do). Usually the concept comes first since "I want to give the player lots of choices" isn't really a good place to start, but the mechanics affects how one goes about planning the rest. If a player is given the choice to travel back in time or if there are X available endings with Y ways to reach them, then that stuff I think should be thought through first before any kind of script is drawn up.

After the concept and verbs are put down, it would then move to the next two. Context as in the characters and the story. I have some people tell me a bad habit of overplanning my stories. For visual novels, this is one of the make or break points. Most people come to visual novels to enjoy being told a story. On the Mechanics side, that's more to do with programming. We're fortunate to have Ren'py because most of the thought with that has already been done for us. If your story is noninteractive, plug the text in and you're good to go (Okay, that was a gross gross gross oversimplification), but if you want to build an interactive system that's different. Speaking as someone without much (formal) programming education, translating from verbs to mechanics is very difficult. It's a lot of trial and error and you have to simultaneously plot out how this goes with the story.

At the end, you would converge on the features and content. A few notes on that. Features and Content aren't as much directly made as they are produced through the process of the other four parts if you happen to do the convergence thing. Your raw story and your codes are the created through planning, writing, and programming, but rarely do the people playing actually have an interest in seeing that process. What they see are the features and content as the final product.

[dizzcity]

Actually, I can understand your problem, monele. I've hit the content problem myself quite a few times... from both directions. (i.e. concept without content, content without concept). When you come down to it, it's like the difference between creating the plot outline and writing every single bit of the 50,000 words to finish the story (echoes of NaNoWriMo here...). Or the difference between a quick line sketch for storyboarding purposes and drawing-colouring-animating every scene in detail. Or the difference between thinking up a nice melody and composing an entire orchestral performance.

What you need is a grunt to do all the heavy lifting after you've drafted the plans. You're like an architect trying to build a building without an engineer / contractor. You can create a cardboard-and-toothpick model, but you need people to mix the cement and spend days building each wall brick-by-brick.

But yeah, papillon's right in that most people prefer to give concepts without having to get down into the messy details of filling it with content. In fact, most of the unsuccessful projects I've observed (both here and elsewhere) were not completed not because there was no creative vision or ideas, but because there weren't enough workers doing the grunt-work (i.e. making the content). To some extent, it's just a matter of discipline... making a list of things to write, and then having someone whack you until they're all written (that's what a good producer's for).

Sometimes, I find that deliberately NOT planning everything out in detail beforehand often helps me overcome the content barrier. The danger about planning everything out conceptually is that once you've got a working model, you tend to not want to touch it anymore and it seems psychologically complete. Instead, what I've found useful is deliberately not trying to think about the next stage, or how it all fits together until I've completely finished the content of the part I'm working on (ie. that particular quest / story segment / chapter). Then, once a content segment is complete, I review the entire story as a whole again, see if anything has changed, and pick the next segment to work on and concentrate on that, expecting that the whole model will change again once this segment is complete. It's sort of evolutionary game design - the model of the game evolves into different forms each time you completely finish one story segment. This tends to create a slightly more scattered product than the model-everything-and-then-fill-in-with-content method, but it DOES end up creating a more complete game because there's more content created. To some extent, because you don't know what the ending is going to be like, you yourself become motivated to create one content segment after another until you reach something that looks like an ending.

I hope that helps. By nature, I'm a conceptualist as well, but I've found that the method above does tend to help me finish work better.

-Dizzy-

[DaFool]

monele, do you happen to have an outline for MB2 already? Do you need help coming up with more final "plague cure potion" quest events?

Do you have a 'backbone' for the game already?

Both NT and BM wouldn't be possible if it weren't for a wrinkled piece of handwritten scrap paper that listed 16-20 numbered scenes. Each scene describes a main plot point. For multiple endings, then there will be two or more versions of later scenes. When I read it, my mind rehearses all the possible events that could possibly be included. I don't actually write it down until I'm in the game itself.

If MB2 still uses a string-of-pearls architecture, it should be linear enough so solidifying its backbone shouldn't be too hard.

[JQuartz]

What you need is a grunt to do all the heavy lifting after you've drafted the plans. You're like an architect trying to build a building without an engineer / contractor. You can create a cardboard-and-toothpick model, but you need people to mix the cement and spend days building each wall brick-by-brick.

I don't really think that's a good analogy. Rather than grunts you'll actually need an engineer, someone who can give ideas instead of just following them. A typist would be more suited as an analogy of grunts, for writers, they're more like consultant/engineers.

To use some metaphor, imagine that I'm facing a wall too high for me to climb (because I'm bad at climbing walls), so I need someone to push me up so I can go past the wall and keep walking. I don't think I want to stay in front of the wall while someone else climbs it and goes on without me

If it's just one wall then it's pretty easy to find help but if you have tons of them, it's tough cause ideas just don't pop up everyday especially if they are limited by the context and concept. You need a dedicated creative director/writer if that's the case.

Anyway, I don't really know what you need since i don't think you asked for anything other than 'more content'. I think you have to be more specific in your questions.

[PyTom]

Both NT and BM wouldn't be possible if it weren't for a wrinkled piece of handwritten scrap paper that listed 16-20 numbered scenes. Each scene describes a main plot point. For multiple endings, then there will be two or more versions of later scenes. When I read it, my mind rehearses all the possible events that could possibly be included. I don't actually write it down until I'm in the game itself.

I suspect that this is the point at which it becomes likely a game project will complete. It's one thing to have an idea, or even an idea with a start and an ending. But once you know what will happen to get you from the start to end (and once that outline satisfies you character-wise), it seems much likelier that a project will complete.

I've had a number of projects that I haven't been able to get to this point, and so I had to drop them.