What do you want to see more of in EVNs?

[fleet]

If people want to something different from the same old thing, make a comment on any of the VNs here that are 'outside the norm.'
VN creators tend to write what they think the audience wants. If the audience only makes posts in topics about "JVNs or various anime tropes (high school, harem of girls/guys, etc.)", then the authors/creators will tend to make that type of VN.

If a VN writer/creator makes something 'outside the norm' and gets ignored, she/he has no incentive to make unique works.

[kitsubasa]

Very much agreeing with Fleet on that-- I think another thing to think about, in relation to this thread, is encouraging creators who are making stuff outside Japanese setting GxB/BxG love stories, so that they know there's an audience out there for things outside the norm. The main game I'm working on right now, for example, is set in a fantasy South Pacific country with a butch bisexual woman as a protagonist, primarily GxG romances and heavy overarching themes of justice and colonialism... buuut I simply get no comments on it, and I'm at the point now where I'm wondering 'do I need to cave and do something less personally motivated to get some interest going for this?'. Granted, it might just be that it's inaccessible in a particularly strong way, since there's almost nothing there that people can immediately latch onto... but it's making me see how games with unorthodox settings and stories end up sputtering out mid-development. When you create something new, you cast a smaller net for an audience by default, so I think it's important for whatever audience you can find to be vocal about their support, otherwise it's easy to assume they're not there at all!

Anyway, tirade over, here's what I want more of:

-More non-slice-of-life, non-fetishised GxG. I get it. You want your adorable gay schoolgirls grappling with their sexuality. Cool, whatever. But gay ladies can be involved in stories involving stuff other than their sexuality or their school life, you know? Where are the lesbian mystery stories, the lesbian history stories, the lesbian history-mysteries. Just something that involves gay girls actually DOING SOMETHING like GxB/BxG/BxB characters tend to do. We don't even get a unique premise half the time, it's just, 'they're in a school? Cool, they're... dating now?'. Make it a school for delinquents, make them fight evil by moonlight and win love by daylight. Just... anything.

-More stories set in non-Japanese settings. This one has been discussed thoroughly, I list it for all the reasons people have brought up before. : D

-More murder-mystery type VNs. I feel like visual novels could be a really cool avenue for telling murder stories, and letting players go down different routes based on their suspicions and their interpretation of clues.

-More history VNs. No great artistic/cultural reasoning behind this one, I just really like history stories and I'd love to see people create stories in or about historical events and settings they have a passion for.

-More female protagonists with huge personality flaws. I know that it's easier to get people to buy into games with protagonists who don't have glaring flaws, but they make things a lot more interesting-- and female protagonists in particular could use more of these. I know 'romance heroine who is slightly shy but can step up to bat when the time calls for it, capable but not brilliant at required tasks' is the easy thing. But why not 'heroine who is too proud and brash for easy communication with other characters', or 'heroine who is frankly a narcissistic self-aggrandising mess, must learn to appreciate others'? It'd make things more involving.

-More games that put a heavy focus on writing instead of art and try to craft a well-paced story with interesting prose, engaging themes, and new ideas.

-And, like others, more non-white/Japanese characters and more characters who aren't pretty teenagers/young adults.

[trooper6]

If people want to something different from the same old thing, make a comment on any of the VNs here that are 'outside the norm.'
VN creators tend to write what they think the audience wants. If the audience only makes posts in topics about "JVNs or various anime tropes (high school, harem of girls/guys, etc.)", then the authors/creators will tend to make that type of VN.

If a VN writer/creator makes something 'outside the norm' and gets ignored, she/he has no incentive to make unique works.

Remember when I said that I want more VNs made self-consciously as art rather than as commerce? This is what I mean. I want fewer creators who write what they think the audience wants, and more creators who write what *they* want to write--what is within their artistic vision. People hated Beethoven's later works, they thought is was loud and dissonant. If he stopped making those sorts of works because it wasn't what "the audience wants," where would we be? Again, I want more bold, courageous avant-garde artists, and fewer people who deliver only what they think the audience wants.

Very much agreeing with Fleet on that-- I think another thing to think about, in relation to this thread, is encouraging creators who are making stuff outside Japanese setting GxB/BxG love stories, so that they know there's an audience out there for things outside the norm. The main game I'm working on right now, for example, is set in a fantasy South Pacific country with a butch bisexual woman as a protagonist, primarily GxG romances and heavy overarching themes of justice and colonialism... buuut I simply get no comments on it, and I'm at the point now where I'm wondering 'do I need to cave and do something less personally motivated to get some interest going for this?'. Granted, it might just be that it's inaccessible in a particularly strong way, since there's almost nothing there that people can immediately latch onto... but it's making me see how games with unorthodox settings and stories end up sputtering out mid-development. When you create something new, you cast a smaller net for an audience by default, so I think it's important for whatever audience you can find to be vocal about their support, otherwise it's easy to assume they're not there at all!

I haven't given you comments on your work in progress because your project isn't done yet and I don't even frequent the WIP boards. When your project is done I'll certainly play it and give you feedback. But I would hope you wouldn't not work on a project that is important to you, that you believe in just because you aren't getting feedback on a WIP thread.

My VN, when it is done? I don't know if anyone will like it. I don't care. I'm doing it for me. And I plan on doing it as well as I can. And maybe it will resonate with others. Ideally that would happen. But I'm not going to compromise my vision for popularity.

I want more of that.

Because let's me honest. The sorts of things I like don't tend to be mainstream, if people only made things they thought would be mainstream, then nothing I like would be made.

[Carrogath]

Had a big post here and got logged out for some reason, so, quickly...

- What kitsubasa and fleet said, basically. You create something new, nobody seems to notice. You create something familiar, suddenly everyone has an opinion on it. I do think it has something to do with accessibility/relatability--the majority of users on LSF are on the younger side and would rather read/write stories about high schoolers than about working adults because they can't really relate to the latter.

- I think the problem with GxG in EVNs is that even though they exist, it's not always obvious that they are GxG? You have NomnomNami's VNs in one corner, where the GxG is pretty obvious if not the whole point of the story, and then IDHAS's and Winter Wolves' games (and Long Live the Queen and The Royal Trap and Locked-In and Analogue and Basiliska, honestly,) in another, which have elements of GxG but don't necessarily make it a point to advertise those aspects of the story either because it's not about the romance, or because the romance is an optional part of the story. It seems to me that people want GxG VNs where the lesbian aspects are immediately apparent and are a necessary part of the story, as opposed to being tucked away in some corner of the game or another.

- Personally, I would love to see more diverse female protagonists with established personalities whose conflicts and problems are thoroughly explored in the text. Because, really, what's so great about a "strong female character" if we know virtually nothing about her, or if her problems are completely overshadowed by the problems of her male love interests?

[Anne]

I don't really get where does this idea that there're only (or at least A LOT) Japanese high school romance projects come from? Looking at the completed games section that doesn't seem to be true. Also, I don't think people put art over writing - it's just that good art is affordable (with some luck you can get it for free) to an average person while good writing... not so much.
Still I doubt anyone will argue that better writing is a good thing and I'd definitely like to see more of it.

[Mad Harlequin]

Also, I don't think people put art over writing - it's just that good art is affordable (with some luck you can get it for free) to an average person while good writing... not so much.
Still I doubt anyone will argue that better writing is a good thing and I'd definitely like to see more of it.

Decent writing isn't necessarily something that requires money, though. I think many, if not most, of the problems I see in this area can be addressed with a little patience and a lot of hard work. Handing the script over to someone for honest critique (and more than once) wouldn't hurt, either. We should not be content with mediocrity.

[pocoscon]

For me personally though I'd like to see some more different portioned body types. A bit tired of seeing perfect bodied boys and girls. I know girls and guys like that, but it's not realistic. I don't mind it at all, but I want more VN's that explore different body types. My friend and I are doing Vn's that at least have a heavy boned girl or boy. Sad thing is I know some users don't like that. I know that's fine, but when they say something rude about it, it's very hurtful. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are a few Vn's on here that have that, and it's great, but I want some more.

Also, some more races like Hispanic, Indian, and so on. Now I know different races are coming in games, and I'm happy about that. Just hope to see a mix of them all in a future Vn

Yeeeeaaaahh! I'd love to just see generally more diversity in visual novels! More diverse bodies, races, sexualities in characters, and more diverse stories.
After all is that not.... the spice of life?

Exactly . That's what I want to see more too. I mean we get more Yaoi then Yuri. I like Yaoi and all, but I do want to see more Yuri. But the Yuri, for example, would be even better if the characters weren't perfect looking, and had mixed races, though that's actually happening more in the VN world. The same thing goes for Otome games as well. I'm beginning to see that not many of the romancable guys look realistic, or bigger or even shorter.

[Rossfellow]

Superheroes! Or classic magical girls. I dont know why those are so rare.

[Hijiri]

Y'Know, this is, like, the 4th or 5th time we've had this thread. And the points are always the same. But at the end of the day, it's simply "we want" and no one really goes and does what they want. So if you guys really want what you want,w ell...you have the tools, so make it!

[Mad Harlequin]

Y'Know, this is, like, the 4th or 5th time we've had this thread. And the points are always the same. But at the end of the day, it's simply "we want" and no one really goes and does what they want. So if you guys really want what you want,w ell...you have the tools, so make it!

You're right. This thread seems to clone itself. But I suppose that can't be helped.

And don't worry---I'm writing something I want to write. I'm not especially prolific, but I try to write things worth reading.

[Shoko]

I agree with the first reply of this thread the most.

In order for more VNs of variety and quality, we need more people interested and active in the medium. VNs are a relatively new type of media that has a lot for creators to experiment with; I think nurturing people's enthusiasm for the art and encouraging them to continue creating should be a high priority for the community if they want more genres and ideas to be explored.

Decent writing isn't necessarily something that requires money, though. I think many, if not most, of the problems I see in this area can be addressed with a little patience and a lot of hard work. Handing the script over to someone for honest critique (and more than once) wouldn't hurt, either. We should not be content with mediocrity.

I don't necessarily agree. Writing is certainly a practice worth just as much as art and decent writing can require skill that you've got to work to get. They may need to make a bad/"mediocre" VN to understand the specific plights of writing for visual novels. And when that happens I think the best thing to do is welcome the work as it is instead of what we want it to be/wish it was.

Very much agreeing with Fleet on that-- I think another thing to think about, in relation to this thread, is encouraging creators who are making stuff outside Japanese setting GxB/BxG love stories, so that they know there's an audience out there for things outside the norm. The main game I'm working on right now, for example, is set in a fantasy South Pacific country with a butch bisexual woman as a protagonist, primarily GxG romances and heavy overarching themes of justice and colonialism... buuut I simply get no comments on it, and I'm at the point now where I'm wondering 'do I need to cave and do something less personally motivated to get some interest going for this?'. Granted, it might just be that it's inaccessible in a particularly strong way, since there's almost nothing there that people can immediately latch onto... but it's making me see how games with unorthodox settings and stories end up sputtering out mid-development. When you create something new, you cast a smaller net for an audience by default, so I think it's important for whatever audience you can find to be vocal about their support, otherwise it's easy to assume they're not there at all!

I think you might be lacking in advertising. Putting a link to it in your signature so that people can stop by regularly to see what updates are going on would probably help a lot.

[papillon]

Remember when I said that I want more VNs made self-consciously as art rather than as commerce? This is what I mean. I want fewer creators who write what they think the audience wants, and more creators who write what *they* want to write--what is within their artistic vision.

Of course, to a large extent what people want to make is often cookie-cutter replicas of their own favorite stuff. Not always, of course, but quite often people who take this up as a hobby do so because they're interested in what they've already seen and want to make more of it.

Where are the lesbian mystery stories

Despite being endlessly delayed by other things, Black Closet is still in production!

[kitsubasa]

I haven't given you comments on your work in progress because your project isn't done yet and I don't even frequent the WIP boards. When your project is done I'll certainly play it and give you feedback. But I would hope you wouldn't not work on a project that is important to you, that you believe in just because you aren't getting feedback on a WIP thread.

I would never stop working on something just because it didn't get a response-- I work on my projects because I want to work on them, even isolated from outside engagement. But I also want to work on something of quality, and I think getting responses from others can help me in that goal. The thing is, I see the inaccessibility of my work, and I want to polish it to a mirror shine, because even if it's obtuse and niche, I want it to be the BEST obtuse and niche work it can be. If that makes sense? I can do it alone if I have to but it's nice to have an outside voice chip in sometimes and go 'no no no why are you doing that'.

I think the problem with GxG in EVNs is that even though they exist, it's not always obvious that they are GxG? [...] It seems to me that people want GxG VNs where the lesbian aspects are immediately apparent and are a necessary part of the story, as opposed to being tucked away in some corner of the game or another.

Yeah, I think that's a very good breakdown of it. All the other romance types are very in-your-face a lot of the time, whether it's because they're the whole point of the game or because they end up more integrated with the plot. It's less a lack of GxG elements and more a lack of honest-to-goodness this-is-the-main-orientation-of-the-romance GxG games. Bonus round, a lack of GxG games with a plot other than the GxG (ie. 'overt lesbians do something' vs 'overt lesbians').

I think you might be lacking in advertising. Putting a link to it in your signature so that people can stop by regularly to see what updates are going on would probably help a lot.

Ah, excellent point! I keep forgetting to put anything in my signature since I virtually never click the things in other people's, but then, it's not about people clicking them really, it's about people repeatedly seeing it and thinking about it as a result, and I forget that too.

Of course, to a large extent what people want to make is often cookie-cutter replicas of their own favorite stuff. Not always, of course, but quite often people who take this up as a hobby do so because they're interested in what they've already seen and want to make more of it.

And those of us who want to do different things within the medium... are often just translating what we like from other mediums into this one. Like in my case: 'I love this particular conspiratorial elaborate demon-hunting monster-fighting comic universe... let's make something like this, but as a VISUAL NOVEL'. I guess in the end it's just a matter of mashing enough things we love together that we create something seemingly original in the process. Creative brains are just blenders waiting to mix the right fruits.

[Holland]

I don't really get where does this idea that there're only (or at least A LOT) Japanese high school romance projects come from?

I don't think anyone said there were only those games, but there definitely are a lot of them. The ones here on the LSF are mostly buried in the archives since we do have a lot of people working outside the box, but there are plenty more places where visual novels are available than here. Just searching up dating sim EVNs will show you a ton of gakuueeen-desu-romansu games (especially the older ones).

I was also talking about localization in general. Even games that are in a fantasy setting or are focused somewhere or on something else often have towns and classroom scenes that are blatantly Japanese, bystanders in sailor uniforms, characters eating onigiri and takiyaki, events where you go to 'flower viewing festivals', demons prancing around in kimonos, etc.

Unless you want a fantasy / military game or to play as older characters, you're kinda stuck with it anyway; there aren't many realistic teen dating sims that take place outside of Jap schools.

[Mad Harlequin]

I don't necessarily agree. Writing is certainly a practice worth just as much as art and decent writing can require skill that you've got to work to get. They may need to make a bad/"mediocre" VN to understand the specific plights of writing for visual novels. And when that happens I think the best thing to do is welcome the work as it is instead of what we want it to be/wish it was.

Of course everything you say is correct. As a writer, I know just how much work is involved in honing the craft. But what I meant was that we don't spend nearly enough time truly encouraging people to improve. I see it over and over again. We say "Oh, this is great! It's perfect!" but little else. Praise is a good thing, especially for beginning writers and artists, but it must be earned, and it must be honest. Indulgent praise teaches nothing. I'm not saying our critiques ought to be cruel, but we should provide feedback that is actually useful.