i don't feel safe anymore with gaming culture

[sake-bento]

Well, my initial suggestion was that it would be a voluntary service - the sort of thing a writer could submit to as a sort of "proofreading" check, and then do what they will with it. For instance, a game I wrote has some really mild S&M in it. While most people liked it, one beta tester mentioned it could be bad for players who might have experienced abuse, so I included an option to turn it off. It doesn't hurt the original storyline at all, but I'd rather be told about it upfront than find out later that someone got a bunch of bad flashbacks from playing a game meant to be fun.

You can also just simply put a warning so that people know what they're getting into.

My main point was that I wouldn't have put a warning, because it didn't even occur to me. Without someone else mentioning it, I never would have thought that mild S&M would have been a problem for anyone. That's why it's more like "proofreading." I would love to have people catch things I didn't see, and I'd rather have a supportive place for people to find it than release a game only to have a horde of angry people telling me I probably shouldn't have made the black character's favorite food watermelon.

Again, it's only a suggestion - it's not going to become a forum rule or anything. And in a more general sense, we're happy to discuss it and any other suggestions people might have for making this community a better place for creators and players alike.

[PyTom]

These are my thoughts, inspired by the recent troubles, filtered through the lens of visual novel creation. These are my opinions, and mine alone - they're not official in any way, even if they are about the forum culture.


On a forum like LSF, there is one thing that should be against the forum culture. One thing that you should never say to another creator.

"Don't create your game."

There are a lot of ways one can say "don't create." They range from the polite - explaining how some ideas are just unacceptable - to the extreme - threats of violence. But I think both should be anathema to a creative community such as ours. Making visual novels is not an easy hobby - it requires people to devote a lot of time and energy to go from an idea to a playable game. There are very few ideas that can inspire such devotion. i had one ten years ago, and might finally have had a second. Our games are always the vision of a small team. When you're telling people not to create their game, they're unlikely to go and make a game that's more suitable. Instead, you're telling them to go do something else - find another hobby or profession.

I think visual novels are valuable - I've devoted much of the free time in my adult life to that prospect. Hopefully, if you're here, you agree with that. And so, I think when people are discouraged from applying their talent and creativity, we lose something important. As much as possible, we should try to prevent that.

The solution, I think, is radical openness. We should welcome games we'll never play. We should welcome games we dislike. We should even welcome the games that actively offend us.

That doesn't mean you have to like or be interested in those games - just recognize they have a right to exist. In turn, you can expect people to respect that your game has the right to exist. That respect makes the forum a welcome place for new creators, which as it makes a lot of attacks simply laughable. I mean, it's hard to say your story about the life of a transwoman is somehow destroying gaming when there's a game consisting mainly of foxgirl fanservice three threads down. Can someone go after your bishoujo harem space adventure when clicking "next" gets you an fantasy otome game made by an all-female team?

And I think that's the key to feeling safe here. By welcoming everyone as equally as we can, we make it really hard for people to get upset at anything we create. Will some people get upset - yeah, probably, there are crazies out there. If you do anything in public - including simply walking around outdoors - you'll But when we're simply adding, welcoming new creators, providing new choices rather than taking old ones away, it's very hard for a critical mass of people to get upset at anything.

[Holland]

The solution, I think, is radical openness. We should welcome games we'll never play. We should welcome games we dislike. We should even welcome the games that actively offend us.

10/10. I really agree with this. There have always been people with their laces tied a little tight who think books, movies, and games are offensive because they're not politically correct, but I think there's been a really big "trigger warning" culture borne from the radical Tumblrites invading creative forums everywhere. Opinion is subjective. "Everything offends somebody." People shouldn't have to censor their ideas, but they do. They do it in fear of someone getting offended and making the creators out to be racist, sexist, homophobic, evil cis people trying to start a genocide on the minorities of the world. Don't be that guy.

This goes to all of us. If something in the story bothers you, accept that it's just not the project for you and move on instead of trying to villainize the creators. Like Tom said, that's what'll keep the forums (and anywhere, really) neutral and accepting of creative works and their authors.

Edit: Quick note about what was mentioned earlier in the thread since my post washed over that factor. In the case that an author didn't realize something was offensive and it could really bother someone, there's nothing wrong with giving them a private heads up that it may make some people uncomfortable. They can choose on their own to remove the content. If they don't, then I think you should remember there's a difference between criticizing that decision versus insulting them for it versus putting down the game because of it.

[fruitionpaper]

The solution, I think, is radical openness. We should welcome games we'll never play. We should welcome games we dislike. We should even welcome the games that actively offend us.

10/10. I really agree with this. There have always been people with their laces tied a little tight who think books, movies, and games are offensive because they're not politically correct, but I think there's been a really big "trigger warning" culture borne from the radical Tumblrites invading creative forums everywhere. Opinion is subjective. "Everything offends somebody." People shouldn't have to censor their ideas, but they do. They do it in fear of someone getting offended and making the creators out to be racist, sexist, homophobic, evil cis people trying to start a genocide on the minorities of the world. Don't be that guy.

This goes to all of us. If something in the story bothers you, accept that it's just not the project for you and move on instead of trying to villainize the creators. Like Tom said, that's what'll keep the forums (and anywhere, really) neutral and accepting of creative works and their authors.

Offensive games that are about hating and defiling a group of people IS NOT what I'm worried about. As much as people like to make fun of those nutty SJW feminists and "offended by everything" tumblr kids, you gotta admit that the opposition aren't really all that sane in their own head (Again, think back to Anita getting bomb threats or when hackers actually tried to hijack the plane carrying Sony Online Entertainment CEO John Smedley).

My main concern is WHAT IF! What if a troll whom you cannot reason with, whom you cannot shake your finger at and say "what you're doing is wrong!", attacks you. Doxxes you. Hacks into your email address, finds your real name, where you live, who your friends and family and find where they live, and shares it with everyone online. And for added shits and giggles, calls in a SWAT team on you as a prank? What do you do then? What are the preventative measures an individual game developer can do to be doxx proof?

[PyTom]

I just want to clarify, so I'm not understood: There are people on both sides of the trouble that are trying to prevent games from being made, that are trying to win by subtraction. I think there's a maximalist position that's not that of either side, and it's that maximalist position that I'm going for.

"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

[Hijiri]

What are the preventative measures an individual game developer can do to be doxx proof?

The sure-fire way? Get off the internet.
There will always be people who do not like you and who will go pretty far in showing you how much they don't like you. You have to accept that. But you should also know that the chances of getting doxxed yourself is pretty damn slim. If you let your paranoia dictate what you do, then perhaps the internet isn't right for you.
Though if you want, you can also use IP proxys, but you have to also accept that some of those proxy IP's may be banned on certain sites.

[sake-bento]

My main concern is WHAT IF! What if a troll whom you cannot reason with, whom you cannot shake your finger at and say "what you're doing is wrong!", attacks you. Doxxes you. Hacks into your email address, finds your real name, where you live, who your friends and family and find where they live, and shares it with everyone online. And for added shits and giggles, calls in a SWAT team on you as a prank? What do you do then? What are the preventative measures an individual game developer can do to be doxx proof?

Googling "how not to get doxed" brings up some good advice - but basically the idea is to scrub all personal information from the internet, and use false information if you have to. Also, you can use a IP proxy to surf the net if you're exceptionally concerned.

[Caveat Lector]

I just want to clarify, so I'm not understood: There are people on both sides of the trouble that are trying to prevent games from being made, that are trying to win by subtraction. I think there's a maximalist position that's not that of either side, and it's that maximalist position that I'm going for.

"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

By that, you're talking about the infamous "tumblerites" as well as the misogynists, right? And you also mean "it's okay to criticize games if something is problematic in it, just don't advocate for the game to be banned", right?

My main concern is WHAT IF! What if a troll whom you cannot reason with, whom you cannot shake your finger at and say "what you're doing is wrong!", attacks you. Doxxes you. Hacks into your email address, finds your real name, where you live, who your friends and family and find where they live, and shares it with everyone online. And for added shits and giggles, calls in a SWAT team on you as a prank? What do you do then? What are the preventative measures an individual game developer can do to be doxx proof?

If that happens, rest assured, you will have the support of most people in this community, including myself. We will do everything we can to support each other. In fact, I think that's another thing we can do to make LSF feel like a safe place for VN developers: Openly and honestly discuss and address harassment and what we can do should the worst come to worst. Realistically, there might not be a whole lot we can do directly since we're on different parts of the globe, but at the very least, we should be there for each other to provide emotional support, just to let the other know "hey, you're not alone".

[fioricca]

The solution, I think, is radical openness. We should welcome games we'll never play. We should welcome games we dislike. We should even welcome the games that actively offend us.

Yes. Thank you so much for putting it so nicely and elegantly. Honestly, each time a discussion of anything related to social justice -- not that I oppose them, I think they're interesting and like Taleweaver, I love seeing people passionate about what they believe in -- but each time a discussion crops up and turns into something that devalues a work, I feel as though a certain part of creative freedom is being killed off slowly. I have great sympathy for 18+/Ecchi/Hentai creators; while they are not a genre that I consume and may contain questionable elements, on no accounts should anyone discourage the creation of more of such games. I love that LSF is all about the creation of visual novels and that we are not here to judge what deserves to get made or not, and I'm really happy to hear that all works have the right to exist here regardless of content or type. Thank you again for phrasing it so succinctly.

[PyTom]

By that, you're talking about the infamous "tumblerites" as well as the misogynists, right?

I'm not a huge fan of assigning labels and names to people, especially fairly negative ones. I think it tends to group together the most reasonable and most extreme elements of either side, and gives undeserved legitimacy to the extreme elements. But yes, I think there are people on both sides that are trying to stop people from creating what they want.

And you also mean "it's okay to criticize games if something is problematic in it, just don't advocate for the game to be banned", right?

I have trouble of thinking of things in games as universally problematic. There aren't any ideas so dangerous they can't be included in a novel, and there aren't any ideas so dangerous they can't be included in a visual novel.

When it comes to criticism, take a look at my sig. But I think there are different ways to criticize a game. It's one thing to say "this game has <x> element, and so isn't for me, or people like me". It's another say "this game has <x> element, and shouldn't be made" - especially when you haven't seen it. I think it's generally inappropriate to criticize a game before it's been released.

[xiaomao]

To respond to the original topic, Fruitionpaper said they don't feel safe in gaming culture and that's a damn shame. And I think it's a legitimate sentiment born of rational analysis of the situation. Unfortunately there are people out there who will dedicate months or years to ruining a stranger's life. It's not like robberies, which are random act of opportunism. These are planned, years-long hate campaigns dedicated to particular people. That is legitimately frightening.

What can we do about it? Individually, the first thing you can do is trust your gut. If you have a feeling of being creeped out by someone, listen to that feeling. Don't ignore it. If you haven't read it, I recommend "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker on how to spot violent and manipulative people and how to get away from them. If you can't get it where you live, pm and I can give you a digital copy.

Individually, we can find people who believe us and are willing to defend us. We can give our time and energy and friendship to those people. We can reach out to people who feel scared or victimized and tell them we believe them.

What can we do about it together? As a community, we can believe one another and stand by one another. That means when your friend tells you she feels uncomfortable around someone, we should listen to what she says FIRST, before rushing to that person's defense. It's difficult to confront someone on your own, so if one member has been hurt by another member of the community, we can stand beside them and confront the perpetrator together. If we find that one member of our community has behaved in unforgivable ways, we can kick them out of the community. It's either a safe space for abusers or a safe space for victims, but it can't be both at the same time.

So that is what we can do.
And I'll conclude by saying that I am here for anyone who needs support.

[DesertFox]

[My views no longer reflect what I originally posted here.]

[Mad Harlequin]

People going as far as doxxing and death threats is certainly offputting - I think it's the price you pay for having a unique voice.

I disagree. Yes, there will always be bullies on the Internet, as it gives them an easy place to hide, but credible threats to someone's personal safety go too far. We shouldn't just shrug them off as "a price [we] pay."

It's not unique for these women to receive death threats, nor is it unique for anyone with an internet connection or an opinion.

No, they're not the only ones to receive such threats. But that's not the point. No one should be the recipient of such messages.

[Taleweaver]

No, they're not the only ones to receive such threats. But that's not the point. No one should be the recipient of such messages.

You're right. No one should. Obviously, it keeps happening anyway, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. So what to do about it?

First of all, if it does happen to any of you, don't hide. Tell others who can help you. In serious cases, go to the police. If it's happening in this community, tell an admin. I already said this in a PM to Caveat Lector when she shared her concerns with me: We do not tolerate cyberbullying of any kind on the LSF.

Secondly, don't argue with the trolls. That's what they're hoping for. Instead, tell others (privately) when someone harrasses you online. Get support from your friends but never give the people attacking you the satisfaction of showing them that their actions have an effect on you.

Thirdly, protect yourself. I cannot say this more clearly. Use safe passwords for your e-mails. Deactivate "security questions" wherever possible. Don't post your private contact data in social networks. If you're required to submit your real-life contact data, submit fake data. Use throwaway e-mail accounts to register in online communities. That way, people will have to make a real effort to get to you, and for most, this effort will be too much.

Finally, keep cool. The threat level isn't as high as the current media hype would suggest it is. Only few people have the skills to hack well-protected user accounts, or actually deliver on the threats they're making. If someone's threatening you, chances are they are trying to scare you and harm you entirely through the fear you're feeling. The less you're afraid, the less they can harm you.

We're on your side. Always.

[papillon]

Then I wonder why she didn't do anything about the troll situation yet? Oh, wait she did report it to the police. Nothing came out of it. Like I said: did you ever heard of anyone persecuted for sending threats on the internet? She can report it to the police, but what do you think they're going to do about it? Trace it and jail the troll? Fine them?

Yes.

See: http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-29274238

Cyber-harassment is a crime. You can, indeed, be punished for it. You can go to jail.

Will every single person who does it get caught and be penalised? No, of course not, it's difficult to trace every individual 'anonymous' message and the police have other things to do.

But it's important to recognise that this behavior is illegal (jurisdiction may vary) and can have consequences. Look up cyber-stalking laws for more information.