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The fact is, openly protesting and calling out horrible attitudes is what got people the rights they needed. Staying silent and complying with the status quo accomplished absolutely nothing. Are the laws designed to protect us perfect? No. But if the alternative is complete and total anarchy, then I would much rather have these laws because at least I could try to do something about it. And it's not just me who's impacted by these laws--If I have no legal right whatsoever to protect myself from harassment, then neither do you.

MaiMai wrote:"Gaming culture" at this point in time is a big joke.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Mad Harlequin wrote:

maricon wrote:

Mad Harlequin wrote:People are kidding themselves if they think they can get away with this crap---especially the extreme threats. I'm sure Ms. Quinn and Ms. Sarkeesian are taking appropriate action.

Yeah, no. While it is illegal to make threats, I've never heard of trial for "online harassment" or "anonymous threats on the internet".
So nothing will come out of it.
The thing is, let's not pretend they were the first to receive such treatment (anyone remembers flappy bird creator and why he pulled his game out?) being in spotlight on the internet will bring out hordes of people who are dicks for various reasons.
No one is saying it's okay. But there's nothing you can do about it. That's the reality of the situation.

Ever hear of an IP address? It allows law enforcement to track down people making threats like that. And Ms. Quinn certainly knows the name of her ex, so she can take appropriate legal action against him for defamatory comments.

Taleweaver wrote:Really? Issuing death and rape threats is not okay, and we ought to let people know?

Yes. We absolutely should.

We pay for the liberties the internet gives us by having to endure people who abuse these liberties. It's sad, but this is how it is. You're not going to make trolls stop by making the point that trolling is not okay. You are absolutely right by saying it, but you're not making a difference. And everybody - including the trolls - already knows that.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, has to "pay for the liberties the Internet gives us" by enduring rape, bomb, or death threats. That is a disgusting notion.

And maybe you or the trolls don't think people make a difference when we speak out against this behavior, but I assure you that there are other people who do.

Then I wonder why she didn't do anything about the troll situation yet? Oh, wait she did report it to the police. Nothing came out of it. Like I said: did you ever heard of anyone persecuted for sending threats on the internet? She can report it to the police, but what do you think they're going to do about it? Trace it and jail the troll? Fine them?
No, they'll wait and see if there's any follow up on this threat, and if there's any reason to be concerned about it. At the very least they'll be monitoring the situation.
Anyway, I'm not sure what kind of war you think you're fighting for, and it's none of my concern. People who are assholes on the internet usually know they're being assholes - telling them that they are is not going to stop anybody. So that is it.

On the individual side:

Absolutely no one should be harassed. Doesn’t matter what gender. Here is the issue I take with the whole situation-

Several male game critics and developers in the past have openly complained about online harassment, those who have also been in fear for their own safety, only for people to tell them to “Get over it”, “Be a man about it” or “Just ignore it.” But the moment a woman receives the same death and rape threats, she needs the protection and aid of the public because for some reason people believe that men should be able to deal with online harassment, and women are incapable of dealing with it themselves. Suddenly, a woman being harassed via the internet is an issue ONLY because the women in question happen to make big names of themselves. Suddenly, the threats are REAL and life-threatening, only because there are women involved. In addition, several supporters of Quinn have openly insulted and threatened others on numerous blogs if they even dared to voice their disapproval of Quinn’s past affairs, and that includes sending insults and threats to other women (I’ve already seen supporters compare gaming culture to “rape culture”. Like, are you kidding me?! Yeah, that's definitely something on my mind when my friends and I play Mario Party every weekend.) I don’t want to be on either side in that case.

Now, for the gaming side:

Depression Quest isn’t groundbreaking, from what I’ve read from the reviews, so I don’t see how Quinn’s game has made any impact on the gaming world, female developer or otherwise.

As for Sarkesian, I personally don’t support her, mainly due to the allegations of financial fraud and the stolen artwork for her team’s previous logo. The latter really gets to me as an artist, especially when the artist had asked numerous times for the artwork to be removed only to be told “I got it from Google Images so that automatically means it’s Fair Use”, and when the artist notes politely that is incorrect, white knights appear to silence the artist (I’m looking at you, Jonathan Blow).

To anyone who thinks “This is the end of gaming as we know it!” really has a small reference pool. Fandoms of games across platforms across the world probably aren’t focused on these events or hell, even know about it. Gaming companies from all places of the world probably aren’t focused on this event and again, probably don’t even know about. I’m betting 99% of all the Pokemon fanbase is too busy flipping out over the remake of Sapphire and Ruby than even know what is happening on one corner of the internet. People thought the gaming years were over when Jack Thompson first opened his mouth, but here we are. This won’t deter women from making games or playing them.

TL;DR:
Do Quinn and Sarkeesian deserve their harassment? Absolutely not. It is horrid and should stop.
Is it going to ruin gaming for women as we know it? Absolutely not. I’m not afraid and neither should anyone else.
Should all gamers be lumped into one group and all be labeled as sexist pigs? Absolutely not. That’s a dumb, sweeping generalization.
Should everyone go back to focusing on creating and playing games instead of subscribing to all of this recent drama: Emphatic yes.

There's plenty of harassment and doxxing on both sides of the conflict. At this point, I want nothing to do with the whole mess. It seems to lack a point and is accomplishing nothing of value.

MaiMai wrote:"Gaming culture" at this point in time is a big joke.

Not very funny one, too.

maricon wrote: Like I said: did you ever heard of anyone persecuted for sending threats on the internet?

Yes. However as of right now that is not something that really happens if the threats go to everyday people. But, for example, if you were to go on some random forum and makes threats about a police station that police station could very well track you down and arrest you for it. There is one story where they sent a whole team to break into a house because of internet threats and it ended up not even being the right people. So clearly they have the means to track down/arrest people for that type of thing, so there is no reason to just be okay with the fact that they generally don't do anything about it.

Googaboga wrote:So clearly they have the means to track down/arrest people for that type of thing, so there is no reason to just be okay with the fact that they generally don't do anything about it.

Exactly. We can't just lie down and pretend this doesn't exist.

And for anybody saying, "Oh, we just need to stop with all the drama. I want to go back to playing/creating games." Well, it just so happens that some of us can't partake in such enjoyable activities because we're too busy dealing with abuse. I sure wish we could all have equal fun. I can't believe I have to explain why this is important.

Mad Harlequin wrote: Nobody, absolutely nobody, has to "pay for the liberties the Internet gives us" by enduring rape, bomb, or death threats. That is a disgusting notion.

And maybe you or the trolls don't think people make a difference when we speak out against this behavior, but I assure you that there are other people who do.

I agree. We are morally obligated to not condone such degrading practices. We are morally obliged to speak out and spread positive insight within our spheres of influence. However, we have to keep in mind that there's a reality in which we are punished for doing so. Internet Trolls aren't creatures you deal with like that. That's just the way it is.

The fallacy of this viewpoint is that we assume that trolls share our moral standards and that making them see that will make them stop. While this can be the case, other times it's far more complicated than that.

Trolls are not defined for being misguided and immature(children), or being criminals(greedy/desperate). They operate with full knowledge of their offense and impact on their prey. They are malicious, bored, and attention-hungry. They are either incapable of guilt or they have locked it out of their system, so they won't stop when you tell them that what they're doing is wrong.

They are the very definition of Chaotic Evil.

So if they're ultimately sane and have a working conscience, why do trolls do what they do? It's usually one of the combinations of the following:

1. Because they are given the opportunity. Basically, because they can. If Defamation is the internet equivalent of Assault, and Hacking is the internet equivalent of Theft, Trolls are the Vandals of the internet world- They don't attack people out of resentment or benefit- It's so they can go LOLOLWASNTME.

2. Because they are given the time. These guys literally have nothing better to do. Or maybe trolling is their life calling. Hard to tell. Trolls are bored and seek entertainment at your expense.

3. Because it rewards them. As stated by posters above, the sole agenda of a troll is to invoke a reaction from their prey. Just acknowledging that they exist rewards them.

No one says you should absolutely endure a troll's malady. In a way, trolls are mind games because the action you take depends on what they do. But whatever you have to do, you do -NOT- address or publicly mention the troll. It's not very effective and there is a high chance of backfire via added media attention.

-For empty threats (Hate E-mail, threat E-mail, social media comments, online personal messages, etc), ignore them.
-For articles done online that falsely defame you or your business, if it's a high profile, high traffic site that directly affects your online persona or your business(and you can prove it), you can choose to sue them for said defamation. If it's just some tumblr blog, ignore it.
-For personal messages or comments done online that disclose your personal/confidential information, seek proffessional help.
-For degrading or threatening messages sent directly to your private contacts (home address, work address, or your personal phone number), call the police.

There are a lot of different directions this thread is heading, and a lot of them don't necessarily respond to the initial topic or this community in general, but we want this discussion to be something constructive and healthy for our community.

So first, the rough truth: No matter what you do, where you are, or who you are, things will not be 100% safe. I get police notices about once a month warning me that a car's been broken into somewhere in my neighborhood. In the past year, there have been two gun incidents less than a block from where I live. Merely existing means I am not safe. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop owning a car (just so that no one can break into it), and my reasons for living here are important, so I'm not going to move. Of course, I'd really like this to be a safer neighborhood, and I am working hard to make sure it is. I don't just roll over and go "Well, guess I'm gonna get shot someday and there's nothing I can do about it."

Any online community will be the same to varying degrees. We (the admins) want LSF to be a safe space for anyone to make games, but we know it's not perfect, and we know that sometimes we mess up. We hope that you understand that as imperfect humans with limited experiences, sometimes we'll do or say the wrong thing, but that doesn't mean we don't want to learn more and make this a better place for you. It just means we're not going to get there immediately.

And so to that end, we'd really like this conversation to be more about what all of us as a VN community (not just LSF admins) can do to make this a safe space for creators and players. For instance, could we build a feedback circle that can look through other peoples' writing for things that may be problematic (e.g. racist slurs that might not be obvious to the person writing it)?

We can't change the whole world, but if we can change our corner, that's a start.

maricon wrote:Like I said: did you ever heard of anyone persecuted for sending threats on the internet?

Actually, yes.

sakebento wrote:And so to that end, we'd really like this conversation to be more about what all of us as a VN community (not just LSF admins) can do to make this a safe space for creators and players. For instance, could we build a feedback circle that can look through other peoples' writing for things that may be problematic (e.g. racist slurs that might not be obvious to the person writing it)?

I would love that actually! I think we should probably try to foster a community of support for each other, and offer to help each other out however we can should we ever go through something like this (and I hope none of us ever do). However, I feel like for the feedback suggestion to work, we need to shake off this idea that criticism of anything is inherently "mean" and designed to "discourage" people from writing. Yes, it's fine to encourage people to follow their dreams, but at some point we really do need to be willing to step in and explain to someone why, for example, calling their dating sim "Kool Katy Kurb" might be, ahem, problematic.

Caveat Lector wrote:

maricon wrote:Like I said: did you ever heard of anyone persecuted for sending threats on the internet?

Actually, yes.

In this case, it was something related to national security. Even if the threats aren't real, its still something DHS is gonna investigate. You don't see the FBI tearing down someone's door for sending death threats on Tumblr.

sake-bento wrote:For instance, could we build a feedback circle that can look through other peoples' writing for things that may be problematic (e.g. racist slurs that might not be obvious to the person writing it)?

I'd recommend against such an idea because what's considered problematic is subjective. For an example, I find the terms "queer" and "poc" problematic, but other people don't. And it would also push away developers since they may feel that "If I don't meet these standards to the letter, I can't show my work."

sake-bento wrote:We can't change the whole world, but if we can change our corner, that's a start.

Thanks for your response. This is the primary sentiment upon which all of my posts in this thread are based.

Hijiri wrote:

sake-bento wrote:For instance, could we build a feedback circle that can look through other peoples' writing for things that may be problematic (e.g. racist slurs that might not be obvious to the person writing it)?

I'd recommend against such an idea because what's considered problematic is subjective. For an example, I find the terms "queer" and "poc" problematic, but other people don't. And it would also push away developers since they may feel that "If I don't meet these standards to the letter, I can't show my work."

Perhaps we could have some kind of survey, like, "Which of the following words / phrases do you consider offensive and unsuitable in a videogame?" That way we can see what proportions of people subjectively agree or disagree that the word is okay to use, and you can choose at your own discretion what you'd like to use based on the results.

Well, my initial suggestion was that it would be a voluntary service - the sort of thing a writer could submit to as a sort of "proofreading" check, and then do what they will with it. For instance, a game I wrote has some really mild S&M in it. While most people liked it, one beta tester mentioned it could be bad for players who might have experienced abuse, so I included an option to turn it off. It doesn't hurt the original storyline at all, but I'd rather be told about it upfront than find out later that someone got a bunch of bad flashbacks from playing a game meant to be fun.

Like people have said there will always been trolls and those who like being nasty to people. Many do it for fun just to see how the person will react. I wish people could say their opinion without having to worry that someone will threaten to kill them, but they can't all the time.

But even with that, I enjoy gaming a lot. However, I am upset by how some act with it and hurt those who might bash a game or character or belief. The same goes for movies, anime, and actors. Say something bad about someone or something, and you might have a whole line of people harassing you. Another good example is someone like Nostalgia Critic. He's reviewed some movies people love and has been bashed. I'm sure he's been threatened, but I hope not

However, places like Lemmasoft are good for gamers. It's not entirely safe from trolls, bu has many nice people and lots of creativity. That's why I enjoy it on here a lot.

BarabiSama wrote:

Hijiri wrote:

sake-bento wrote:For instance, could we build a feedback circle that can look through other peoples' writing for things that may be problematic (e.g. racist slurs that might not be obvious to the person writing it)?

I'd recommend against such an idea because what's considered problematic is subjective. For an example, I find the terms "queer" and "poc" problematic, but other people don't. And it would also push away developers since they may feel that "If I don't meet these standards to the letter, I can't show my work."

Perhaps we could have some kind of survey, like, "Which of the following words / phrases do you consider offensive and unsuitable in a videogame?" That way we can see what proportions of people subjectively agree or disagree that the word is okay to use, and you can choose at your own discretion what you'd like to use based on the results.

I'm still not fond about policing works. Even then, I don't think there's such issues here on LSF, seeing as the majority of the user base is generally respective. Even then, the only times I've seen use of offensive terms and phrases from projects on here is when its (rightfully) portrayed in a negative light.

sake-bento wrote:Well, my initial suggestion was that it would be a voluntary service - the sort of thing a writer could submit to as a sort of "proofreading" check, and then do what they will with it. For instance, a game I wrote has some really mild S&M in it. While most people liked it, one beta tester mentioned it could be bad for players who might have experienced abuse, so I included an option to turn it off. It doesn't hurt the original storyline at all, but I'd rather be told about it upfront than find out later that someone got a bunch of bad flashbacks from playing a game meant to be fun.

You can also just simply put a warning so that people know what they're getting into.