How can I stop making sexist games?

[Mad Harlequin]

you don't have to stop being sexist! the only thing you need to do is deciding on your "target audience" and mention it on your very first page.

If a target audience knowingly consumes sexist material---or anything else promoting bigotry, for that matter---there is something seriously wrong with that target audience. (And yes, I know people like that exist, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

There's a big difference between being aware of a target audience and alienating potential consumers. That said, implying that we should tolerate bigotry because there's apparently a market for it is nonsensical.

you can try to please both side in one game but the chance of success is thin because of difference in the taste. my advise: make one for girls and one for boys. ^_^

Well, everyone, you heard the order! Girls and boys don't like the same things! Men, go play your first person shooters! Don't forget to ogle a swimsuit calendar between missions! Women, go make finger sandwiches and tea while you wait for your Barbie dress up game to load!

I'm going to go start a bonfire so I can dispose of all my man-only comic books.

[Kiki]

guess I need to step back and redeem myself. people see me as a hardcore sexist now.

You say you're not trying to be sexist, but the views you're representing are very sexist. Not all men like sports or the others things you're trying to be clever about suggesting. Not all women like detailed stories. Some men love detailed story writing, creating expansive worlds and characters (one of my closest male friends loves to write heavily detailed fantasy stories). Some women love sports (I know plenty of female basketball and rugby players).

There is no clear divide on what a woman will like and what a man will like. Society tries to tell us that there is, but that's because society has had a sexist setup and the changes to that line of thinking are coming slowly. Suggesting that there is some divide is a product of sexist thinking.

If someone wants to change their line of thinking to be less sexist, they should be encouraged to change, not told that things are fine as is. Sexism is not okay, it's not permissible and it's not an excuse. It doesn't matter if your targeting a male audience; that's not a reason to encourage sexism and alienate other potential fans.

[E-night]

guess I need to step back and redeem myself. people see me as a hardcore sexist now.
all I meant is: Taleweaver. you don't have to change the way you make your games. they spouse to come out of your brain the way you thinks. there is no reason to change the way you tell your stories. it's natural to men have such fantasies about girls because girls have their own kind of fantasies about men so continue being yourself.
and yes men and women are different. and I'm not talking about things like eating, drinking, having hands and feet and etc ... yes all humans do those things so do most of animals. I'm talking about the way we think.
-men enjoy round and bouncy things.(like err... ehm... balls and all kind of sports that involve any type of ball. football, baseball, basketball and ....)
-women enjoy a good detailed story. (it's a long story to tell but I learned lots of things like this fooling around music industry)

I can go on about how to win men or women audience for ever but there is no point in that. just tell me how it's possible to write a single story that can work both ways and I'll show you your mistake.
about those anime and mangas:
The Bride's Tales/ is Seinen (marketed to a male audience aged roughly 17 on into their 40's.)
Four Daughters of Armian/ is Shōjo (marketed to a female audience roughly between the ages of 10 and 18)

Gintama/ is shonen (aimed at a male audience. It appeals to a large age group, ranging from about 10 to 42 years old) and a very good comedy in harem genre.
Angel Beats/ is Seinen (I think / didn't watch it and can't say anything about it)
Tiger&Bunny/ is Seinen
Uchuu Kyodai/Space Brothers/ is Seinen

all I'm saying is: know your client.

It is not okay to 'continue being yourself' if you are sexist. Would you tell a sub textuallly racist person: "it's okay to continue to stereotype coloured people after all they are not the primary target of your demographic"?

Now from what I've seen of Taleweaver, I'm pretty sure he is not sexist, but he wants to get even better at something and that is admirabe in itself. Besides from what I've understood he wants the next game to appeal to women, which makes women an important part of the demographic.

Finally nothing that is succesfull appeal to one demopgrahic - such as good children books havins things for both adult and children.

Also out of curitosity what does Harry Potter appeal too? Avatar the last Airbender? Kingdom Hearts? Final Fantasy? Drage Age? Mass Effect? The new superhero movies? Mario? Mario Kart? Zelda? Portal?

[Caveat Lector]

all I meant is: Taleweaver. you don't have to change the way you make your games. they spouse to come out of your brain the way you thinks. there is no reason to change the way you tell your stories. it's natural to men have such fantasies about girls because girls have their own kind of fantasies about men so continue being yourself.
and yes men and women are different. and I'm not talking about things like eating, drinking, having hands and feet and etc ... yes all humans do those things so do most of animals. I'm talking about the way we think.-men enjoy round and bouncy things.(like err... ehm... balls and all kind of sports that involve any type of ball. football, baseball, basketball and ....)
-women enjoy a good detailed story. (it's a long story to tell but I learned lots of things like this fooling around music industry)

First of all, Taleweaver started up this topic with the intention of asking for how he can write his female characters better. He's acknowledging that perhaps there might be elements of his games that are problematic and he wants to fix that for future games. I don't think he wants people to downplay or handwave this criticism. He wants actual advice on how he can improve, which quite a few people have gladly given him.

Second, "it's natural to men have such fantasies about girls"...so what about gay men, or asexual men? For that matter, "because girls have their own kind of fantasies about men", what about lesbians or asexual women?

And third, there are plenty of women who enjoy playing sports-related games, and men who enjoy story-based games as well. Also: Periphery Demographic is a thing.

I'd also love to know what you think of male fans of the Nancy Drew games, or female fans of NBA games. Do enlighten us.

So if I can give Taleweaver any further advice:
Don't write in broad gender stereotypes. Write your female characters as characters with balanced traits and likes and dislikes. And when advertising, don't feel obligated to rely on gender-based marketing. Market your game based on its strongest features, as a story, as a game, and that will be enough to make it appeal to both genders.

[E-night]

I still think divirsity in the female characters is the best approach.

Also amongst the minor characters. Just make sure they don't default to male.

For example there is no reason why a minor burecrat who obstructs our gang of heroes couldn't be female, or the woman working for the insurance office-

Irritating rule lawyer is unisex after all.

Just make sure that when the heroes eventually complain they don't draw focus on the character's femaleness (because really it is not important).7

Make sure it is:
- Omg I can't believe she wants us to fill out twenty formulars - and what do you mean there is a clause 2Bi? I'm trying to save the world, not study law.

and NOT this:
- Omg, what a frigid bimbo, who can't get into her pretty little head that world saving is more important than her stupid little formulars.


And I'm pretty sure there are many other bit characters both helpers and obstacles could be made girl without losing anything. This is escpially important if the bulk of your main cast is male for reasons (the best would of course be balance here).

Now I don't say all should be made female, but simply showing that there are women outside the hero's group in all kind of roles, and without drawing attention to the characters femaleness would help.

[Mad Harlequin]

So if I can give Taleweaver any further advice:
Don't write in broad gender stereotypes. Write your female characters as characters with balanced traits and likes and dislikes. And when advertising, don't feel obligated to rely on gender-based marketing. Market your game based on its strongest features, as a story, as a game, and that will be enough to make it appeal to both genders.

Forever seconded. If there's one single piece of advice here that represents a good first step in the right direction, this is it.

[PyTom]

Just a reminder to everyone, let's keep this topic focused on Taleweaver's initial set of questions.

What I need is help, and this is why I'm now addressing women on this forum.

- What do you want to see more of in my stories?
- What would be traits that make a female protagonist likable to you?
- What would be traits that make female side characters likable to you?
- Can you give me existing examples of positive women role models in gaming?

Please, serious discussion only. I'm genuinely looking for advice here.

More specifically, let me point out that discussion of what kinds of game you personally like or dislike, and what kinds of games you personally find acceptable or unacceptable, is off-topic. (And frankly, profoundly uninteresting.)

This thread would also benefit from new voices speaking up. I think many people who have posted in here have basically answered these questions. Unless people bring new blood to the thread, there's not much more to say.

[Zootower]

I've tried to stay neutral in this conversation at the risk of adding more kerosene to the gender-war fire, but it's reached a point where it's best now to drop my two cents in, writer to writer.

Art does not, and should not, always have to be a continual "safe space" for women, men, trans individuals, non-binaries, et al. If it were, everyone -- creators and consumers both -- would have to reject the idea that games, film, music, and other forms of expression could possibly explore a diverse range of themes. If we dismiss stories coming from "privileged" world-views, we risk losing unique voices. Does that mean we should weaponize the medium to make minorities feel marginalized? Of course not. Taking extreme stances on either end is what caused this #gamergate mess in the first place.

You are a creator. You have agency in making works that you want to make. The mail you received was only the latest in a wave of attempts by third-wave Social Justice warriors attempting to shame creators who don't fit their worldview. Don't succumb to their schoolyard type of peer-pressure. Their attempt at colonizing art is no different than Columbus, Cortes, Pizzaro and co. razing the culture of Mesoamerica. In fact, it may be a bit more insidious because it masquerades as equality instead of outright conquest.

I played Adrift when it released and thought that it was a good game. It struck me as a clever inverse of an Orwellian "Big Brother" fantasy, where the Supervisor is actually a benevolent figure. Just because he is a "privileged male" doesn't make the game any more alienating or sexist. It actually tows the line of traditional power mechanics in society. Just because one reader hates that the Supervisor isn't a Afro-Caribbean lesbian woman doesn't mean you should change things to be more "inclusive". It's a mechanic of storytelling that you, as the story's creator, developed. Don't compromise your own creative energies to make a story more palatable to a perceived minority. As for the "gals" in the story, they could've used a bit more fleshing out. Perhaps deepening their backstory and struggle would've made the game more sympathetic to a female audience.

This is the same kind of ranting that tries to get "The Adventure of Huckleberry Finn" banned from high school libraries. There can be injustice in stories without the author necessarily promoting them. Twain uses racism to explore broader themes and cultural malaise affecting American society of his time. You can use a privileged agent to explore a theme that you want to explore. Just be conscious of it. Be conscious of that character's place in contemporary society if that's your setting, or develop a new set of rules for a fantasy/sci-fi playbook. Awareness is a far better goal to strive for than a forced sense of inclusiveness.

To echo previous sentiments -- write characters with depth and breadth. A well-developed female character does immense wonders in any form of storytelling. But if your story doesn't need one don't force it. It will show.

[meiri]

According to the Entertainment Software Association, 48% of gamers are women. Also according to the ESA's statistics for this year, "Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (36%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)." And looking at the Lemmasoft survey, there are more women here than men. So, is just deciding to alienate a large part of the gaming population really a good idea? I don't think so.

don't get me wrong I don't suggest to write this is sexist in the game. simply mention "Yaoi, Yuri, BL, straight and other keywords that describe the content" to attract that kind of audience and give the player a big picture to decide on. this will avoid offending people who are offended with this categories.
I said one for girls and one for boys and I mean it. the things that girls demand from games are too different from things boys want to fit in one game that easy. and wow I had no Idea there is that much gamer girls out there I was thinking about 20-25%.

But you see, you can make a game with yaoi,yuri, or BL-like content and not be so completely sexist with your characters. Just because it is that kind of game does not constitute that it's okay to make sexist material.

[ Various nonconstructive stereotypes. - Elided by PyTom ]

I think it is important to note that while some Taleweaver's games may be of a certain pairing, his games may not have any particular target audience... As well as the fact mentioned earlier: Everyone is different. Just because you identify as a boy or girl isn't going to determine EXACTLY what your audience wants.
If the OP wanted to know what boys like more vs what girls like more, he would've asked that, but he's asking how to write his characters in a less problematic way.

--

Another bit of advice I can give you: If you're completely stuck on a character, try to loosely base them off real people. By this I mean, if when you look at the character and it seems like she is problematic and written degradingly, try thinking of real people (or people in history) with personality traits similar to your character. See what makes that real person unique and try to fit some of that in.

[ThisIsNoName]

Art does not, and should not, always have to be a continual "safe space" for women, men, trans individuals, non-binaries, et al. If it were, everyone -- creators and consumers both -- would have to reject the idea that games, film, music, and other forms of expression could possibly explore a diverse range of themes. If we dismiss stories coming from "privileged" world-views, we risk losing unique voices.

At the same time, I think it is our duty as artist to push the boundaries of how we perceive art. Even if it's just from a personal point of view, instead of a social view, being stagnant is generally something we should avoid.

Also, it's worth pointing out that just because a story has female, trans*, non-binary, etc. characters doesn't mean it's safe. Just try watching "Shortbus" and tell people that it's "safe" (unless you're under 18... or generally enjoy your sanity).

[trooper6]

One thing I want to add.

I don't think just saying "imagine your female character as a person" is necessarily going to work if the person doing the imagining has a problem with humanizing women in the first place.

A number of people don't really see women as actual people. They see them as stereotypes. They think that women are somehow fundamentally different from men. (That often do this with men as well, to be fair) Or they think of women only as accessories to men. Telling someone who doesn't really know women or understand them to just "imagine" them will not necessarily work.

So, what I'd say is in order to better help imagine women as people...real people...not any of this "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" BS, consume media created by women. Read books by women, comic books by women, get to know the ways that women talk about themselves. Get to know women's lives. Get to know women when they aren't being framed only as accessories for men.

[papillon]

You are a creator. You have agency in making works that you want to make. The mail you received was only the latest in a wave of attempts by third-wave Social Justice warriors attempting to shame creators who don't fit their worldview. Don't succumb to their schoolyard type of peer-pressure.

Telling writers that they aren't allowed to make their own choices because that would be "succumbing to pressure" and therefore they should do things the way YOU want them is not actually an improvement for freedom.

There's a reason my advice includes determining whether or not you actually want to address a complaint. Writers do not need to address every complaint! However, if they do decide that they want to explore other directions, that should be their choice.

[Zootower]

You are a creator. You have agency in making works that you want to make. The mail you received was only the latest in a wave of attempts by third-wave Social Justice warriors attempting to shame creators who don't fit their worldview. Don't succumb to their schoolyard type of peer-pressure.

Telling writers that they aren't allowed to make their own choices because that would be "succumbing to pressure" and therefore they should do things the way YOU want them is not actually an improvement for freedom.

"Don't succumb to peer pressure" and "make a more 'inclusive' game" are two different sorts of imperatives, wouldn't you say? One is saying, effectively, "make your own decision". The other is saying "make this specific decision". I'm merely encouraging him to not lose his agency and keep making the games he wants to make. If they happen to be inclusive from now on, they don't hamper my statement at all.

[Mad Harlequin]

Art does not, and should not, always have to be a continual "safe space" for women, men, trans individuals, non-binaries, et al. If it were, everyone -- creators and consumers both -- would have to reject the idea that games, film, music, and other forms of expression could possibly explore a diverse range of themes.

As ThisIsNoName said, the point is not necessarily about always being "safe." It's about being inclusive, and recognizing that there are many different kinds of perspectives---and that many of them are still underrepresented in fiction.

If we dismiss stories coming from "privileged" world-views, we risk losing unique voices. Does that mean we should weaponize the medium to make minorities feel marginalized? Of course not. Taking extreme stances on either end is what caused this #gamergate mess in the first place.

Is anyone besides the author of that e-mail taking an extreme stance here? I'm genuinely curious.

You are a creator. You have agency in making works that you want to make. The mail you received was only the latest in a wave of attempts by third-wave Social Justice warriors attempting to shame creators who don't fit their worldview. Don't succumb to their schoolyard type of peer-pressure. Their attempt at colonizing art is no different than Columbus, Cortes, Pizzaro and co. razing the culture of Mesoamerica. In fact, it may be a bit more insidious because it masquerades as equality instead of outright conquest.

I understand your frustration with messages on subjects like these that become too aggressive, but is there a reason to condemn people who are concerned about social equality? I know there are many people who jeer and dismiss discussions about that, particularly if the people involved are especially opinionated, but what good does that do?

To echo previous sentiments -- write characters with depth and breadth. A well-developed female character does immense wonders in any form of storytelling. But if your story doesn't need one don't force it. It will show.

I don't think anyone here is forcing anything, to be honest. Are we encouraging an examination of how we write stories and characters? Absolutely. But that's it.

One thing I want to add.

I don't think just saying "imagine your female character as a person" is necessarily going to work if the person doing the imagining has a problem with humanizing women in the first place.

A number of people don't really see women as actual people. They see them as stereotypes. They think that women are somehow fundamentally different from men. (That often do this with men as well, to be fair) Or they think of women only as accessories to men. Telling someone who doesn't really know women or understand them to just "imagine" them will not necessarily work.

So, what I'd say is in order to better help imagine women as people...real people...not any of this "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" BS, consume media created by women. Read books by women, comic books by women, get to know the ways that women talk about themselves. Get to know women's lives. Get to know women when they aren't being framed only as accessories for men.

Good points.

[breadslam]

To focus on Taleweaver's initial questions:

- What would be traits that make a female protagonist likable to you?

Honestly, whatever traits make any protagonist likable to me: they have to give a damn about what they're doing. They should have reasons for being where they are now (whether those reasons stem from negative traits, events, or decisions don't really bother me), and they should have reasons to be invested in the plot of your story.

I've made a couple hypothetical examples to illustrate what I mean (any and all similarities to popular fictional characters are entirely unintentional and most likely subconscious ) :

> Protagonist #1 stars in a sci-fi mystery game, in which an old acquaintance of hers was the victim of a deadly shooting aboard an orbital space station. Obviously, she cares that someone she knew was killed, but she also is invested in the plot because she committed a crime herself and is conflicted on whether she should help solve the current murder and risk opening up investigation on her own case or if she should lead the authorities down the wrong path so that she's no longer on their radar and can hightail it in the ensuing chaos of trying to solve the murder.

> Protagonist #2 is the main character in a office drama, who has to balance both her duties as her younger brother's guardian and her ambitions of making it big at Generica Incorporated. After hearing that the higher-ups are offering substantial bonuses to the department who can come up with a successful advertising campaign for their floundering new product, Protagonist #2 has to interact with her coworkers and coordinate a team effort to get both enough money to pay for a private caretaker to look after her brother and to get a leg up the next time promotions roll around.

Just from a character standpoint and without any of the plot details, both of these women have reasons to care about what they're doing and have reasons for their current positions.

- What would be traits that make female side characters likable to you?

Side characters tend to be where writers go wrong, in my experience. Either women are tacked on to provide an illusion of diversity without actually having a solid reason to be there or following the internal logic of the story, or women are portrayed as bit characters who exemplify a single stereotype/idea.

While there's nothing wrong with having Random Bystander #367 be female with only a handful of lines (most of which involve either not-so-subtle hints at the plot or generic remarks on the weather), players typically expect anyone with a unique sprite/a lot of lines/important information to be a little more than just a cardboard cutout, whether the character is female or not.

I think that my points about a female protagonist still stand. They need multiple reasons to be doing what they're doing and to be acting the way they're acting. Furthermore, any character needs human contradictions/inconsistencies in their personality or backstory.

We humans make stuff up all the time. The average person is just as capable of self-sacrifice as they are of getting the hell out of dodge, given the right situation. They might say that they'll never cheat on their significant other, and then they'll turn right back around to flirt with the town guardsman. No one's perfect, and no one's exactly who they say or think they are. That tough cop down the street with the cigarette hanging out of his mouth might be really into chiptune music. That bagger at the grocery store with the lip piercings and the unwashed hair might sacrifice her life to stop a car from slamming into the old man whose wallet she just stole.

Everybody's got their own story, their own reasons, and articulating that to your audience is important. It might not excuse everything they do, but it's still a reason. You don't have to tell us everything about your characters, but adding depth to them by hinting will go far when you're trying to portray realistic female -- or male or non-binary or transgender -- characters that aren't going to be considered offensive.

- Can you give me existing examples of positive women role models in gaming?

I happen to really like to point to Marlene from The Last of Us, Yukari from Persona 3, or Morrigan from Dragon Age Origins as strong women, though not necessarily "role models".

I hope that my ramblings will be of some help or incite meaningful discussion.