BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

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Fenrir34
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BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#1 Post by Fenrir34 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:12 pm

Just wanted to know people's opinions in if there should be more Yaoi and/or Yuri in vn's. Personally, I love both so I wouldn't mind having them more often XD. But tell be which you'd like to see more of or if you think we shouldn't have much.
Last edited by Fenrir34 on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yaoi, or Yuri, or both, which should there be more of?

#2 Post by kitsubasa » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:48 pm

I think there's much more of a shortage of GxG stuff (I feel weird referring to it as yaoi/yuri since it always feels like the terms are implying pornographic+Japanese-styled content?) if we look universally, since there are plenty of BxB JVNs. But if we're just talking EVNs, there's a limited number of games dedicated to both, and while I'm personally more interested in GxG I think BxB probably deserves some attention as well.

More important than quantity for both is quality and intent, though, at least in my opinion. I think we need less new GxG works aimed at men, and less new BxB works aimed at women, and more general audience/non-sexual stuff for both, or stuff that's actually designed for/by gay people. Granted I might be projecting a bit-- gay dudes, feel free to intrude on this-- but on the gay lady side of things it's a little disconcerting when half the gay media recommendations people offer have kind of fetishistic motivations. I just want stories about people who happen to be gay who are doing stuff, where I'm standing.

Ehh... the tl;dr on this is, more of both, but specifically, more that's not intentionally and only catering to straight people. It's kind of weird and voyeuristic that most of both genres is made for them, all considered.
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Re: Yaoi, or Yuri, or both, which should there be more of?

#3 Post by Fenrir34 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:06 am

kitsubasa wrote:I think there's much more of a shortage of GxG stuff (I feel weird referring to it as yaoi/yuri since it always feels like the terms are implying pornographic+Japanese-styled content?) if we look universally, since there are plenty of BxB JVNs. But if we're just talking EVNs, there's a limited number of games dedicated to both, and while I'm personally more interested in GxG I think BxB probably deserves some attention as well.

More important than quantity for both is quality and intent, though, at least in my opinion. I think we need less new GxG works aimed at men, and less new BxB works aimed at women, and more general audience/non-sexual stuff for both, or stuff that's actually designed for/by gay people. Granted I might be projecting a bit-- gay dudes, feel free to intrude on this-- but on the gay lady side of things it's a little disconcerting when half the gay media recommendations people offer have kind of fetishistic motivations. I just want stories about people who happen to be gay who are doing stuff, where I'm standing.

Ehh... the tl;dr on this is, more of both, but specifically, more that's not intentionally and only catering to straight people. It's kind of weird and voyeuristic that most of both genres is made for them, all considered.
Oh, you have a point there. I'll change the title.

And I like what you said. I'd like more GxG or BxB, but something that's not aimed towards a single group. I think that's the problem with some games. I do want to make a GxG, but I'm a bit worried about how to make it not focus on just one group. I think a good example of something that is for everyone is Forget Me Not. Very good BxB visual novel :D . I enjoyed it a lot.

I can also understand the non-sexual content. I don't mind of the game had a mature love scene though that wasn't just there to be there, but for an emotional level.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#4 Post by Hijiri » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:32 am

Honestly, I think its something that should be left to the creators. We can want more BxB or GxG but if no one's making them then they're just empty wishes. And who writes it doesn't really matter to me since a good story and characters knows no boundries. Hell, even some stuff that caters to a certain demographic can be good if it is executed well.
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Re: Yaoi, or Yuri, or both, which should there be more of?

#5 Post by Laiska » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:38 pm

kitsubasa wrote:Ehh... the tl;dr on this is, more of both, but specifically, more that's not intentionally and only catering to straight people. It's kind of weird and voyeuristic that most of both genres is made for them, all considered.
Seconded. Whether it's male-male or female-female romances (or other!), we need more games that are intended for, or at the very least more respectful of, queer audiences. I could be wrong, but I've actually gotten the impression, at least from glancing over lots of WIP threads, that generally speaking GxG EVNs on this forum, not counting certain R-18 games, are actually targeted towards, or at least friendly towards queer women (good and positive portrayals of gay lady romance, not especially fetishistic).

However, the BxB scene here, and in VNs in general, is abysmal. It's almost always something that falls along yaoi/BL tropes, or else is pornographic. By no means am I referring to all the games that have threads here, there's a couple that do BxB pretty well, and I've seen some good looking ones outside of Lemma, but the general climate still seems to be one where content featuring gay males is by default oriented towards a female audience, which is... not good. I'm not saying we need lots of content with big hairy bara macho dudes (though there's nothing wrong with that), but I'd like to see more stories where it's just a couple of guys (who aren't BL stereotypes) who have a romance the same as anyone else. Not in a way that is pretty and palatable to young girls, just a nice, honest romance.

Then again, it's unfortunately uncommon to find those in games of every flavour, ha.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#6 Post by SinSisters » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:06 pm

The reason why I avoid all games labeled "Yuri" and "Yaoi" is because, more often than not, they're treated like porn. Which I'm not interested in seeing. Personally, I would love to read a VN (and I'm sure that there are lots out there) where it's not a Gay Romance—it's a romance. A romance between two people of the same sex, yes, but it would be nice to see a game not focused on the non heterosexual aspect (as I'm writing this, I see that Laiska said something similar, ha ha).

I hate dominance/submission and not-explicitly-said-but-still-rape games. Personally, although I have not played any of either game, I can say that as a 'bystander', I see a lot more BxB games where the romance is normal, whereas most GxG that I see are still focused towards men. Again, I say most. Often, lesbians are fetishised, especially in the entertainment industry. I'd like to see less "Big boobed girl is gay oh except for the protagonist he's just that great" (extreme example, but you get the idea) and more "Julia loves spending time with Harriet because she finds that they really connect" sort of thing

EDIT: Hah, I was thinking of a scene in particular: God of War III, Aphrodite sex scene :P (maybe she's bi, I dunno, but the rest of the scene is ridiculous)

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#7 Post by gekiganwing » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:04 pm

Robot x robot is the best pairing. :lol:
Hijiri wrote:Honestly, I think its something that should be left to the creators. We can want more BxB or GxG but if no one's making them then they're just empty wishes. And who writes it doesn't really matter to me since a good story and characters knows no boundaries...
I can agree with that. Ask yourself questions such as...

1. Who are the characters? What makes them interesting people, aside from their appearances? Consider their hobbies, their beliefs, their family, their friends, their jobs, and so on.
2. How did their relationship start? How does it change during the story? What might happen to them afterwards?
3. What do the two people have in common with other couples? What makes their relationship different?
4. Other aspects of the story... Is the characters' sexuality an important part of the story, a small detail, or somewhere in between? Is the characters' sexuality common in their world, rare, or somewhere in between? Can the story be classified as genre fiction, including fantasy, sci-fi, or horror?

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#8 Post by Spubba » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:44 pm

I don't mind either type of romance, but I agree that too often, the media with queer content tends to be more sex-oriented or fetishistic. Now while I'll play games of any rating, I'd like to see a ROMANTIC queer theme once in a while. One where you don't necessarily have the "end goal" of getting into the sack with the Love Interest. I think the GxG audience has been getting more of the short end of the stick in that regard, since a lot of GxG media is aimed mainly at cis males.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#9 Post by curry nochi rice » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:55 am

There will be always a lack of GxG games. Always. Partly because there's just a few developers willing to make one. The demand for such games are obscure compared to the apparent and sometimes blatant clamor of fangirls wanting BxB lol.

As I mentioned before, there are 61 purely GxG games in the WIP section. I'm yet to determine the exact number of BxB games but I assume that it's substantially higher.
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#10 Post by blankd » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:08 pm

curry nochi rice wrote:There will be always a lack of GxG games. Always. Partly because there's just a few developers willing to make one. The demand for such games are obscure compared to the apparent and sometimes blatant clamor of fangirls wanting BxB lol.

As I mentioned before, there are 61 purely GxG games in the WIP section. I'm yet to determine the exact number of BxB games but I assume that it's substantially higher.
Well I think it's pretty "simple" for why. There is already plenty of GxG porn and most BxB/yaoi games are porn. There is simply more attention drawn to it since *GASP* it's something that (typically) caters to women for once.

BxB games that are not porn are probably in as much frequency as nonpornographic or malegazy GxG games.

As for if there should be more of one or the other, /shrug, let there be work there's no reason to cap the amount. We do need more games that don't just fetishize sexuality though. Or define the characters by just their sexuality. Or having a homosexual couple just be another flavor of a heteronormative relationship.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#11 Post by Shinoki » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:41 pm

Huh, seems like there's a complaint of too much porn, fanservice, sexuality overdose... :v I think then, maybe we should make some games like those manga in magazines like Yuri-hime (note, referring to the yuri-side). It's manga aimed towards girls, and not fetishised from what I've seen. Visual novels tend to lean more on the anime side while these tend to lean toward the manga that's not very noticed side. (This may not be an accurate statement since I have a guy-like mindset despite being a girl.)

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#12 Post by papillon » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:45 pm

There is already plenty of GxG porn
Really?

Because I get the feeling that from hanging out on /u/ I know every single yuri game that exists, H or otherwise, something that I really couldn't say about bishoujo games or even yaoi ones.

There's plenty of stray art but not a whole lot of games solely devoted to yuri.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#13 Post by trooper6 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:06 pm

Like kitsubasa I'd like to see BxB and GxG works made from a queer point of view.

I'm not interested in BxB stuff made by straight women for straight women. I'm not interested in GxG stuff made by straight men for straight men. I'm also not generally interested in EVNs that aim to mimic Japanese tropes. The English language has a long and wonderful tradition of Queer Literature and art. Let's have some GxG or BxB VNs that draw upon that literature.
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#14 Post by blankd » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:37 am

papillon wrote:
There is already plenty of GxG porn
Really?

Because I get the feeling that from hanging out on /u/ I know every single yuri game that exists, H or otherwise, something that I really couldn't say about bishoujo games or even yaoi ones.

There's plenty of stray art but not a whole lot of games solely devoted to yuri.
I think you missed how I said GxG porn, not games. There may have been miscommunication but for whatever reason yaoi or whatever tends to "need" more context to exist so there are less standalones. Without delving too heavily into a derail about society and sexuality, there are particular patterns of media consumption and production about why porn of certain combinations and manners exist in the different ways that they do.

Queer VNs on a whole are rarer compared to their fetish-sexuality counterparts. Yaoi VNs exist as contexualized porn and that is why they are in much greater comparable numbers to Yuri VNs. (Quick Edit: IF you want to know what I mean by how yaoi is contexualized porn, there is already plenty of GxG fanservice in "normal" things like girl on girl groping/fondling, etc. Or basically female relationships that have sexual exploitation for the benefit of the male gaze. That kind of thing.)

Either way, talk is easy, I'd like to think I'm not contributing to the problem due to my own making of a "BxB" game, but eh, proof in the pudding and all that. (I'd like to see how much cake I can have and still mystically eat it TBH.)

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#15 Post by Katta » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:14 pm

I agree with Hijiri that everyone should make a game they want. And it's only normal that there're less GxG games than BxG/GxB.
But I'm really interested to know what everyone means by queer games for queer audience, how are BxB for women different from BxB for guys (GxG seems more obvious with fanservice and such)? I've read some BxB stories (not VNs, most BxB VNs indeed look to be SM, which seems really weird to me, but that's to some extent similar to 18+ otomes, that tend to be based on rape, that I also don't understand) that were written supposedly by girls and for girls and I've played a small part of Coming Out on Top that's available and this game is promoted like created for gay guys, and I don't really see difference.

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