BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#16 Post by kitsubasa » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Katta wrote: I'm really interested to know what everyone means by queer games for queer audience, how are BxB for women different from BxB for guys (GxG seems more obvious with fanservice and such)? I've read some BxB stories (not VNs, most BxB VNs indeed look to be SM, which seems really weird to me, but that's to some extent similar to 18+ otomes, that tend to be based on rape, that I also don't understand) that were written supposedly by girls and for girls and I've played a small part of Coming Out on Top that's available and this game is promoted like created for gay guys, and I don't really see difference.
There are a few things that make stories a little bit different when they're written by queer people-- to give a rough list of things I notice when they are (not restricted to VNs, just a general checklist across media)...

-There's less fetishisation of queer sexualities as taboo. One of the reasons queer relationships can be popular with a straight audience is that extra 'excitement' they might perceive from characters having to either grapple with uncertainty over being queer, or a ~cruel uncaring world~ trying to tear their relationships down. Not to say that these things don't have a place in queer fiction-- of course they do-- but they're often played in a very overwrought angle, and played too often (ie. 90% of the goddamn time). To get an idea of this, just think about how much BxB/GxG fiction aimed at straight people involves the protagonists not knowing or identifying as gay to start with. I don't know about others, but I'm not hugely interested in watching someone else's coming out experience when I've been there, done that. Imagine if you were writing stories for fishermen and in every story, you wrote how to wind in a reel. They don't need to know that. We don't need to know any more about people dealing with the 'taboo'. (note: I'm also thinking of the 'it's so wrong but so right' scenes, while typing this-- y'know, when two characters have the big running inner monologue about how 'they've never kissed a girl before and society says it's bad but it feels oh so good'.)

-The relationships are allowed to be about the people in them. Related to above, queer romance can often be seen as its own trial. So there can often be an urge to sideline the personalities/stories of the people involved and just talk about the universal issues they're seen to face. Then we get 'holy crap, we're gay, this is my only trait'. It's basically a kind of tokenism, not one done with malicious intent, but one that can stunt the depth queer characters and stories get drawn in. It's probably a major part of a character's life, assuming a contemporary or historical Earth setting, but it shouldn't be the only part.

-This is the kind of obvious one, but the people involved are probably idealised in a different way to BxB/GxG for straight audiences. Can't speak to the tastes of guys, but I know that my ideal GxG game would have things like businesswomen in tailored suits, and muscley weightlifter-type women, and beanpole aristocratic women... as well as the usual busty variety and what have you. These aren't things straight men tend to be into, since they're too masc for their sensibilities (understandably), so it can be easy to pick a work aimed at queer women based on that fact. I'm sure guys can do the same, to a degree.

-Moreover, and this is a problem mostly unique to GxG (to my knowledge?), you get gay women who are actually gay and not nominally gay but suddenly into men the moment they 'fix' some mysterious issue that was preventing them from dating guys. Because it was all just my dad, you guys. My dad was awful and it made me gay. Sure, friend.

-There's less of that link between 'queer' and 'immediately raunchy 18+'. Like... I get that, due to people being idiots, you normally have to give media a higher rating if it portrays queer relationships than if it shows straight ones, but that doesn't mean you should go all-out and just dive straight into porn. It's another relic of fetishisation of queer relationships, as well. Straight people are more inclined to stuff that goes whole-hog since there's the perception of 'if I'm reading something fetishy already, why hold back?'. Of course queer people want sex and sexuality in their media... but ye gods it gets exhausting having that automatic correlation and that prevalence of adult works. Can't we have them just enjoying dinner together and skip the night after?

-There's more of an understanding of all the above. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I don't think I am-- queer romance obviously has more external shit to deal with than straight romance, and the subtleties of said external shit can be so easily overblown or forgotten by people who haven't spent time experiencing it.

At the end of the day the major difference between queer romance and straight romance is in the little defenses and behaviors you put up for it. Stuff like not wanting to specify you're gay to acquaintances, but not wanting to deny it either, so emphatically referring to your partner in neutrois pronouns and methods. Having a friend accidentally say something that makes you realise they see your queerness as a flaw to put up with, not just a neutral trait. Not knowing where to find people to date, so settling for someone you don't really click with.

None of this is enough to make a drama or a plot out of, it's just the little tinges of life that alter how you go about things-- and it can be left out, if it's not necessary or appropriate-- but on the mechanical level of boy meets boy or girl meets girl, it's often all there should need to be. Understanding that there are considerations made, but not major impactful ones, is perhaps the biggest thing that queer authors can do over straight ones. It's just a matter of experience. Knowing when it'll make characters more relatable to have them face these little issues and when to ease back and just let them have a calm, consequence-free relationship. All those sorts of things.

ANYWAY this has been a majorly long post but I felt like there was a lot to list, sorry for the extensive rant. People might disagree with a lot of this of course, because it's just my own limited experience and the stuff I've discussed with my gay friends. Anyone who wants to go 'whoa man that ain't my experience/opinion', please do, because I am but one person in a fairly kind country with marriage equality and all that kind of stuff, so I might have a less severe experience of queer sexuality than others. : D
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#17 Post by blankd » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:55 pm

Katta wrote:I agree with Hijiri that everyone should make a game they want. And it's only normal that there're less GxG games than BxG/GxB.
But I'm really interested to know what everyone means by queer games for queer audience, how are BxB for women different from BxB for guys (GxG seems more obvious with fanservice and such)? I've read some BxB stories (not VNs, most BxB VNs indeed look to be SM, which seems really weird to me, but that's to some extent similar to 18+ otomes, that tend to be based on rape, that I also don't understand) that were written supposedly by girls and for girls and I've played a small part of Coming Out on Top that's available and this game is promoted like created for gay guys, and I don't really see difference.
I can't speak for everyone or everything but the general consensus is that most yaoi is a stagnant, toxic and occasionally outright backward about how it portrays homosexual characters. There are many different kinds of people regardless of sexuality but yaoi uses a very narrow concept of relationships- often in very heteronormative and outright damaging mindsets and relationships (the rape you mentioned).

If you are familiar with "uke" and "seme" then you'll know they often translate to shorthand of "female" and "male"- hell sometimes uke/seme are used as *personality traits*. That a sexual position in a relationship is used as a *PERSONALITY TRAIT* and often the fans of the genre don't question it is ridiculously problematic.

As for the "yaoi is aimed at girls", it's original origins lie in that (Japan), and the use of yaoi has become more of an umbrella term as it's used more on the internet. Bara was the "drawn by gay men for gay men", originally anyway, but as the term's seen more use on the internet, that term has become a bit more of an umbrella as well.

The difference of art is usually the starkest difference between the two, yaoi tends to have caricatures of an idealized heterosexual couple- both are often hairless and the "woman" of the relationship is typically more feminized that can range from looking like a young girl to just having the longer hair/bigger eyes. The context of the relationship is often that there is a severe social or otherwise power imbalance that emphasizes the traits each role the character is supposed to play.

In bara there is more of a homogenized look since both characters will tend to have muscle, hair, fat, or some combination of the traits. Bara stories aren't free from the rape/sexual assault aspect but they are far more likely to take place in a place where the men are meeting up because they want to have sex or they're nervous about meeting this places. This is a far more humanizing and "real" context than the one yaoi often resorts to.

In very broad, and generalized strokes both tend to be more pornographic and/or relationship drama heavy that pertains to sex. than "a story that happens to have homosexual characters as leads". I think it's good we have this kind of content available, and speaking personally, I tend to find bara stories better of the two since most yaoi tends to be het with a bizarre coat of paint (eg: YAOI HANDS!).

I think OP means just having more representation in general instead of games that focus on the sexual aspect. Queer games for queers seems like asking for games that treat queers as well, multidimensional people instead of focusing primarily on the sexual fantasy of it.

Anyway, hope that makes sense. I haven't played Coming Out On Top so I can't comment beyond its surface.

EDIT: Most yuri either suffers the "same problems" as yaoi or it's just straight up porn. Or other issues occur as the post mentioned above me. I feel gxg is often less sexual since there's yet another layer of social bais overlaid on top of it since "girls can't be sexual creatures, then they're SLUTTTTSSS111!" or the more eye-rolly "it was just a phase!"

EDIT EDIT (sorry): Also I don't think the creator's own sexuality can be held fully accountable for the quality of the writing but it certain plays a factor given how "all the others before their story" explores these concepts. Sometimes it's just a case of writing what you know but often times it's just the feedback cycle of what's been done before and what's expected for the respective genres.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#18 Post by Katta » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:43 pm

@kitsubasa
Hmm, that's interesting - your first point is unexpected to me, because it sounds a bit like - oh, I fell in love myself I don't want to read about love. Maybe it's true that this type of stories tends to be similar in some aspects, but shouldn't the emotions in it be easy to relate to?
I agree that the uncertainty point is adding more drama to the story for me, which I like, but isn't it also something to relate to?
And is this "it's bad but it feels oh so good" absolutely wrong or just boring and cliche (I mean it seems pretty logical from the outside to find out about your sexuality when starting to like someone)? Do you find this stereotype "I'm definitely straight, but this person is so hot... No-no I'm straight, I say!" offensive?

Your next 3 points are very understandable and actually not unique to GxG/BxB, that's just bad cliche personalities and plots, which was discussed a lot f.ex. for otomes too.

Thank you for your answer and sorry for so many questions.

@blankd
I understand what you mean and actually I find it pretty offensive to females too, because I see it as a very degrading way to portray females as a lesser type of males. Because that's what I like in BxB - that characters are more equal than in heterosexual romance.

Hmm, about the representation in general, do you think it's good to somehow reveal character's sexual orientation is it's not important for the story? I mean if I'd written a non-romance story I wouldn't think much about characters' orientation...

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#19 Post by Caveat Lector » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:17 pm

And is this "it's bad but it feels oh so good" absolutely wrong or just boring and cliche (I mean it seems pretty logical from the outside to find out about your sexuality when starting to like someone)? Do you find this stereotype "I'm definitely straight, but this person is so hot... No-no I'm straight, I say!" offensive?
Just jumping in with my own two cents, but I'd say that it's not the character discovering their sexuality that's offensive; it's clumsily portraying it in a manner that it backfires and comes off as homophobic even if that wasn't the intention. Like, say, "I Kissed A Girl" by Katy Perry--that song's a guilty pleasure with me (as are a lot of Katy Perry's songs), and the reason for the "guilty" party is because it treats kissing a girl (and liking it!) as scandalous while also avoiding having the protagonist of the song actually be gay or bisexual or pansexual by asserting that no, she's totally heterosexual you guys! She has a boyfriend and everything! It's just an experimental phase! It's not like she's in love or anything! :roll:
Hmm, about the representation in general, do you think it's good to somehow reveal character's sexual orientation is it's not important for the story? I mean if I'd written a non-romance story I wouldn't think much about characters' orientation...
Why not? I'll refer to two awesome VN's as an example here: Yousei had a suspect who moved to a university so he could visit his boyfriend more often and be closer to him. The protagonist of Locked In (Jacqueline Brown) used to be married to another woman. In both cases, neither stories are romances and the fact that they are or were in relationships with someone of the same sex is treated as incidental.
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#20 Post by blankd » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:29 pm

Katta wrote:I agree that the uncertainty point is adding more drama to the story for me, which I like, but isn't it also something to relate to?
And is this "it's bad but it feels oh so good" absolutely wrong or just boring and cliche (I mean it seems pretty logical from the outside to find out about your sexuality when starting to like someone)? Do you find this stereotype "I'm definitely straight, but this person is so hot... No-no I'm straight, I say!" offensive?
(Not speaking for kitsubasa, just tossing more of my 2 cents in)

The single most "offensive" part about how yaoi or other romances handle the "epiphany" of sexuality is that often it's at the hands of sexual violence, exploitation or the impression that "they wouldn't know unless they were forced to do something sexual with the same sex". Falling back on yaoi terms, the uke is often the POV character and is more or less subjected to sexual things done to him. It's creepy because I'd say a good chunk of semes have hamfisted tragic backstories of being molested/raped by someone else and somehow this absolves responsibility or that the uke should automatically forgive the seme because "bad things happened when he was a kid".

Either way the epiphany of sexuality is often lazy storytelling and seems to go hand in hand with a character that is so in denial that they come off as a cyclical tsundere instead of someone coming to terms with sexuality in a society that is homophobic. And as was said, it seems rare for a homosexual character to know they ARE homosexual whereas most het characters know they are het, they just don't know who it is yet.

Other bullshit yaoi tropes include and are not limited to:
-"I can't stop/help myself " (-Said the character doing the rape/assault)
-"You're SEDUCING me, take responsibility" (but the other character has done nothing)
-"I'm not gay, you're just the exception" (EDIT: To clarify this is used as a "you're EXTRA special for making me, the straight guy, gay, exclusively FOR YOU")
-"*sobbing and crying profusely during sex*"
-No one is bi, what the hell
Katta wrote:@blankd
I understand what you mean and actually I find it pretty offensive to females too, because I see it as a very degrading way to portray females as a lesser type of males. Because that's what I like in BxB - that characters are more equal than in heterosexual romance.

Hmm, about the representation in general, do you think it's good to somehow reveal character's sexual orientation is it's not important for the story? I mean if I'd written a non-romance story I wouldn't think much about characters' orientation...
I honestly feel that while it "can" be more equal, it often isn't. Hard swapping the uke/bottom out for a female tends to reveal a lot of the gender-coding. I don't think it's intentional, but it's certainly a pattern.

I'm not an authority on it (hell I'm sure my current project will have it's own set of flaws), but generally having people be casual and accepting about different sexualities (especially in fiction) is more than enough. "Normal" stories can display heterosexual relationships or hint at it otherwise fairly easily, so can homosexual or other relationships.

Hell even having a character be flirty with those of the same sex could be enough. Since het is often the default, it may be harder to think of how to "show" homosexual relationships, but really there are a lot more similarities than one would think. The key to remember is that people have lots of relationships and having these relationships color their interactions with those people. Not everyone has a romantic relationship (maybe they're asexual, maybe that isn't their priority), but short of a setting mandating this kind of thing, there is no reason that every character ought to be sexless or devoid of sexual interest- even if the story isn't a romance.

It's all part of world and character building, there is no one solution or a universal coverall from it aside from "don't forget". That kind of thing.
Last edited by blankd on Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#21 Post by kitsubasa » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:51 pm

Katta wrote:@kitsubasa
Hmm, that's interesting - your first point is unexpected to me, because it sounds a bit like - oh, I fell in love myself I don't want to read about love. Maybe it's true that this type of stories tends to be similar in some aspects, but shouldn't the emotions in it be easy to relate to?
I agree that the uncertainty point is adding more drama to the story for me, which I like, but isn't it also something to relate to?
And is this "it's bad but it feels oh so good" absolutely wrong or just boring and cliche (I mean it seems pretty logical from the outside to find out about your sexuality when starting to like someone)? Do you find this stereotype "I'm definitely straight, but this person is so hot... No-no I'm straight, I say!" offensive?

Your next 3 points are very understandable and actually not unique to GxG/BxB, that's just bad cliche personalities and plots, which was discussed a lot f.ex. for otomes too.

Thank you for your answer and sorry for so many questions.
Well, for my first point, think of it like this.

Imagine literally every straight romance story ever is written as (at least one of) the character's first love. First love is a convention, especially in teen literature, and it's not necessarily a bad one-- but imagine even with characters in their late 20s onward, all you're getting is first love.

Every time, you have to go through the same motions...

The characters are uncertain about how to kiss each other. Maybe the female character's parents express concern over her. Maybe someone tries to give the characters The Talk, or maybe one of them is experienced and they're framed as either leading the other into temptation, or teaching them how to have sex. The narration is all about how inexperienced they are but they're going to make it work anyway.

Now imagine that the author gets so caught up in all the first love stuff they abandon any other story the characters have going, because first love should be important enough to hold the story. And when other authors read this story about this straight couple, they say 'yeah, that's great, I'm also going to write a story about a boy and a girl going through first love, but I don't quite understand it so I'd better work from the ground up and focus on just that, nothing else. It's the only experience of love that matters, anyway. Everyone experiences it so everyone should relate!'.

First love is a MAJOR trope in romance but it's not the only one out there-- straight people can be experienced, straight people can have sordid pasts, straight people can sideline romance and have it as a minor aspect of their day-to-day. Queer people... not so much, in fiction. And if you're past the point of your first relationship, if you've come to terms with your sexuality and you're mostly dating people who have done the same, you generally want to read about people who're also at that point. Especially if your coming out/coming to terms process was rough. Some people lose friends or family or homes over coming out, so imagine having to keep that trauma in mind every time you read a love story about your demographic.

Me, I just don't want every story I read to be about lesbians being super nervous about falling in love-- that's not the point I'm at, and even if it was, there's serious oversaturation of it. I want gay ladies who just show up comfortable with themselves, maybe have a conversation that confirms they're both interested in women, and then they go on from there like any other pair.

As for the trope of 'I'm straight except for this character', eh, it can be a little played out but I wouldn't say it's offensive, myself. I'd say this'd be something for a bisexual person to unpack, not me, since it's more about playing down potential bisexuality (since they're supposedly straight) than anything else.

Re: 'next 3 points are very understandable and actually not unique to GxG/BxB'... I'm not quite clear on how these are universal issues. Certainly, GxB/BxG texts have related tropes, but not the same ones. To go through...

The relationships are allowed to be about the people in them
If you've got a character who's part of a marginalised group of some kind (like maybe a datable character who's very religious in some way, or from another country?) then the relationship might be strawmanned into 'this is how sex/love is experienced as part of my group!' but otherwise, even if the characters are trite, straight pairs usually get to experience love based not around how they love, but who they love. Even if it's as dull as 'bad boy meets good girl', it's still a step beyond 'gay girl meets gay girl', which is what I find the content to be in a lot of those tacked-on GxG routes for otome games.

The people involved are probably idealised in a different way to BxB/GxG for straight audiences.
All I'm meaning with this is that if games were made for gay women we'd probably have less cutesy moe schoolgirls and less buxom sexy ladies in them, and more gay-specific archetypes. Likewise, men playing BxB games probably want something different to the ten million elegant waifs and pointy 'seme' dudes one offer. When a straight woman plays a GxB game or a straight man plays a BxG game, s/he can reasonably assume the characters on offer for dating are targeted at them. A queer woman or man usually can't expect the same, picking up a BxB game or GxG game.

Gay women who are actually gay and not nominally gay.
I'm trying to figure out what the straight counterpart to this would be and I'm... coming up really short, I'm sorry, any chance of an explanation on how this one translates to GxB or BxG? Is there a secret genre of games where straight girls think they're straight but then discover their mother brainwashed them and they were gay all along, and they run off with Princess Charming? I'm looost. ;_;
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#22 Post by blankd » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:15 pm

kitsubasa wrote:As for the trope of 'I'm straight except for this character', eh, it can be a little played out but I wouldn't say it's offensive, myself. I'd say this'd be something for a bisexual person to unpack, not me, since it's more about playing down potential bisexuality (since they're supposedly straight) than anything else.
I tried to clarify the above point. It's hard to explain but often it's the execution of the kind of character that spouts this kind of line which tends to be a man treating another man (often against his will) like a woman and this is compounded by how this character is often a misogynistic asshole. I'd say the flagship of this crappy "trope" would be Okane ga Nai.

There is probably some series that executes this line in a thoughtful way but I haven't really seen it. I feel as though the line is a misplaced "I love you regardless of your sex" which is it's own can of worms, but it's entirely possible I'm reading into it too much. EDIT: Also because the person who says this line for, whatever reason seems to be blaming the person they sexually objectify for "doing this to [them]". It's often a line said that their sexuality is somehow fault of someone else and that rubs me the wrong way.

Again, not speaking for everyone, this is mostly just my view of it.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#23 Post by Enigma » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:43 pm

blankd wrote:
There is probably some series that executes this line in a thoughtful way but I haven't really seen it. I feel as though the line is a misplaced "I love you regardless of your sex" which is it's own can of worms, but it's entirely possible I'm reading into it too much. EDIT: Also because the person who says this line for, whatever reason seems to be blaming the person they sexually objectify for "doing this to [them]". It's often a line said that their sexuality is somehow fault of someone else and that rubs me the wrong way.
This reminded me of something else, I don't think I've ever seen a demi-sexual character portrayed in a game...or anywhere for that matter. It's not the same as what you're talking about, but it seems like a line someone of that orientation might say sort of. I think the difference between that portrayal and what we tend to see is the demi-sexual wouldn't be attracted to anyone or anything else (and maybe having to sort through feeling sexual attraction if they fancied themselves asexual before) unless they had similar feelings for someone else. Which could be interesting...then again, it's hard to write about something like that without knowing someone who identifies that way (I have one friend who does and didn't even know it was a thing until she tried to explain it...and I still feel I don't understand it very well.)

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#24 Post by trooper6 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:33 pm

Some thoughts about the differences between queer narratives made by queer people and queer narratives made by straight people.

Fundamentally, the problem I generally see is that straight people often don't know anything about queer lives. They think being queer is about sex. Sex and probably also oppression....and gendered stereotypes...and maybe AIDS. But being queer is about a whole lot more than that. I teach classes on Queer cultural history...there are in jokes and community and shared language and shared experiences...there is this whole amazing queer world...one that straight people often know nothing about. And when they write GxG/BxB stories none of the humanity, culture, and community of queer people are there. It is flat. And all that is left is a fetish object.

That straight person doesn't know what the lesbian country bar is like. Or what the gay male heartthrobs are. Or what makes a butch sexy. Or what lines from which films the queen likes to quote. Or what mopping is, or the difference between reading and throwing shade. Why we were all convinced that Jo from the facts of Life was a lesbian. The process of coming out...which turns out is a never-ending process. So much. All you get is the sex...and the sex isn't even right. Sometimes it really, really isn't right.

As for the "it's so bad, but feels so good." -- I never felt that way and didn't know many people who did.

It was more like this: Oh my gosh! That person is so wonderful and amazing! And now we kissing this is the most amazing thing ever!
Then later? Then the processing happens. In my case it went like this: Oh....so I'm attracted to women. That makes a lot of sense. Now I understand what was happening in high school better. Uh...oh...I'm in the Army and if anyone finds out there are going to put me in prison. That...is...less good. I wish I could've figured this out before I enlisted. Well...dang.

Being in love feels good. Not, this is bad, but feels so good. But feels good. It is thrilling to come home into who you are and to finally put all the pieces together. And I will tell you the coming out story is a staple of gay/lesbian fiction...but not the way straight people do it. I have no smile of recognition when I see stuff made by straight people. Usually, I'm just irritated by the appropriation of my history and my culture...and then without even getting it right! But I watch/read a good queer coming out story and smile and think--Oh yeah! I know what you're talking about!

And there is a process of unlearning heterosexism that many queer people learn. That makes us a bit different. Straight made GxG/BxB stuff generally doesn't evidence any of the unlearning of heterosexism that is a marker of queer experience and subjectivity.

That's it. GxG/BxB stuff by straight people often treat us as object. Queer stuff by queer people often recognize us as complex subjects.
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#25 Post by KittyKatStar » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:48 pm

Ah, what about queer people who are unfamiliar with queer culture? I'm bisexual but I don't know lesbian bars, or the inside jokes, haven't attended any LBGT events and only posted once or twice on an asexual forum. Does it make a difference...? (I feel really guilty about this a lot and wonder if I wouldn't do well writing bisexual/asexual/gay characters... =( )

I mean I can draw on my own experiences, but I'm probably not as connected as others... ^^;
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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#26 Post by Katta » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:52 pm

@kitsubasa
The attitude to first love stories looks more like a personal preference to me. The inexperience thing probably also comes from heterosexual relationship image (like purity in otome games that was discussed in another thread and that people also dislike)
Re: 'next 3 points are very understandable and actually not unique to GxG/BxB'... I'm not quite clear on how these are universal issues. Certainly, GxB/BxG texts have related tropes, but not the same ones. To go through...
I meant that the problem that characters are often stereotypes without a good personality is a universal issue for romance(?) games, of course the stereotypes aren't same but many people still dislike stereotypes in otome games too even if they're supposedly aimed at their sex. So my idea was that no matter what stereotypes are, well-developed characters should solve the problem. And that every story be it GxG or GxB would greatly benefit from well-developed characters and be bad with blank cliche ones.

@trooper6
But the gay culture would probably be different in different places too, no? So it can't probably be the most important part of the story, so I was kinda supposing the emotions are, which would be different from person to person not depending on sexuality. Well, anyway that's just my assumption and the reason why I'm asking.
Also maybe it's not what you mean but your post still reads a bit extreme to me, like "Only a lesbian person can write about lesbians because straight people can never understand what gay people feel" - but male writers also aren't women but that doesn't mean they can't create a good female character.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#27 Post by papillon » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:43 am

Also raising hands on the 'not straight but not always up on the culture' thing. I have no idea what mopping is. My cultural references only go as far as toaster jokes. :)

If I were going to try and write a story with a realistic adult lesbian dating scenario, I'd need a lot more research. That's one of the useful cheats of the high school setting, though. Young people often aren't all up on the details either.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#28 Post by blankd » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:59 am

Enigma wrote:This reminded me of something else, I don't think I've ever seen a demi-sexual character portrayed in a game...or anywhere for that matter. It's not the same as what you're talking about, but it seems like a line someone of that orientation might say sort of. I think the difference between that portrayal and what we tend to see is the demi-sexual wouldn't be attracted to anyone or anything else (and maybe having to sort through feeling sexual attraction if they fancied themselves asexual before) unless they had similar feelings for someone else. Which could be interesting...then again, it's hard to write about something like that without knowing someone who identifies that way (I have one friend who does and didn't even know it was a thing until she tried to explain it...and I still feel I don't understand it very well.)
It takes a lot of context to portray it accurately, and given how "new" these identities are (rather, the information/awareness of them), some slack can be cut for lack of presence...for now.

The thought occurred to me that that is how the line could be interpreted, but given how backwards the typical character who says it is, I don't think people would want to cite them as any kind positive example. Then again, romance still tends to be one of the most unbalanced genres when it comes to what is "popular" or not.
trooper6 wrote:[snip]
I hate to sound like I'm stirring up conflict but this seems like a lot of gatekeeping or a bit exclusive of the cultures/differences in different countries and even different time periods (progress is not linear after all).

As someone who very much enjoys writing fantasy and sci-fi, I'm curious what your opinions are on more fictional settings that have queer characters or a more "open" queer culture. It's obviously not the same but I am curious about others' input.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#29 Post by E-night » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:38 am

You can add me to the list of people who identifies as bi, but is not part of the community and thus would never be able to describe it.

Though in my case it is a mix of being introvert and have being warned by a friend who does goes there that the cumonuity in my city is outright bi-phobic.
Add to that I'm also identifies as somewhere on the grey ace spectrum and aces then to not be accepted over all (I've had the 'just haven't met the right person yet talk. Oh boy have I had that talk) I am sure that I would not be accepted.

As for the whole ace/demi-sexual thing. I would to love to read the story of the MC coming to the realisation that sexual people exist, because I spend the first 21 years of my life not really understanding that there are people, who actually like switching fluid. I think it could be a good bittersweet comedy.

I would also love that more stories that point out that asexual =/= aromantic. Sure people who are both exists, but it is not the same thing.

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Re: BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

#30 Post by maricon » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:01 am

Plenty of lgbt people aren't part of "queer culture". Do you think they're doing something wrong?

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