BxB, or GxG, or both, which should there be more of?

[SinSisters]

My problem is that my one character is tsundere, so the whole 'freaked out about coming out thing' is more about his personality than him being gay. Even if the MC was a girl, the tsundere would still go "I don't like you". You know?

Also, I have so little experience with coming outs that don't end well. I go to an arts school, so I have one pansexual male friend, one homosexual male friend, three homosexual heteromantic female (one is genderfluid) friends, one bisexual male friend, and one bisexual female friend... (can't think of any others right now, but those are the ones that I'm close to, anyway.) No other ace friends, but none of my friends reacted negatively to me telling them...

So basically, I don't want to write stereotypes, but I also want to write a realistic scene where MC kisses said tsundere (not forced, he just thought that the tsundere reciprocated the feelings and was like okay this is a good moment) and tsundere is like wtf mate, PLUS he's worried about what his parents will think (just because they're very traditional and conservative, really).

__________________

And literally, one of my friends helps run the LGTBQ+ club and my other gay friend is like "hell no" he hates LGTBQ+ events (his gay dad is always trying to get him to join in). His view (which I agree with) is more along the lines of "if we just want to be treated like cis heterosexual people then having events that include every identification besides cis heterosexual people is not the way to go"

I mean, my only description of the ace community is that "There are a lot of INTJs among us" and "We like cake"

-Nat

[Caveat Lector]

I'm also bi, but my problem is that I've never been in a romantic relationship with anyone. I've had crushes and lovelorn fantasies for guys and girls, but it didn't really go anywhere outside of just pining. So as a result, I fear that my portrayal of romantic relationships in general might not come off as genuine, and since gay relationships do often get fetishized, I can see the potential pitfalls. I've been around the gay community before because a former theater director I knew was gay and part of that community. He often had quite a few people from there join in stage productions (some of whom were his former students) and help us out. When I was old enough to go, he invited me and my parents to various holiday parties and talent show nights at a gay bar. I remember seeing pictures of past drag queen winners on the wall, and people chatting and being friendly and laid back. I also remember my theater group performing our year-end show at the bar (I was in the adult class by then), and my late mom wanted to tape it, but she had to smuggle a camera in because in this bar, you weren't allowed to tape anything that went on in there because there was always a chance the person taping it could upload it to the web and out someone still in the closet. I don't know if other gay bars have that rule or not, but I think the rule was there to create a safe space so that the people there can just relax with their buddies without fear of someone recording the whole thing and then showing it to the office the next day as a "funny joke".

However, my experience is only one small slice of queer culture, and I'd like to see more suggestions about what to do or discuss in this regard. I decided to create Rainbow Love because, as mentioned throughout, there are a lot of yaoi and BL stuff out there for straight women but not much out there for a queer audience, and I want this to be different. I also want it to be respectful and accurate, so if anyone wants to discuss their own experiences with high school Gay-Straight Alliances, or queer culture within teen culture, feel free to jump in!

@Katta and blankd:

I think the point wasn't "straight people can't write about gay people ever", it's "straight people have a tendency to fetishize gay people and make major assumptions without taking the time to understand how this story looks from their perspective". Which is kind of true. Look at it this way: We can all agree that puberty sucks and everyone has at least one puberty horror story. We can all empathize with puberty striking at really awkward moments. But cisgender men cannot get periods. When a cisgender woman who actually has gone through the pitfalls and triumphs and laughter and tears and rage of that precious first period writes about it, it feels genuine (of course, it's still possible for it to be handled poorly if she instead treats periods like she's writing it from a medical textbook, but you get what I'm saying). If the man I mentioned takes the time to talk to other women about their experiences with periods, he'll be much more likely to give an equally accurate description then if he just goes off stereotypical assumptions ("what, she's getting angry over me being patronizing? Must be her period!" / "Periods make you too emotional or crampy to do anything, right?" / "Oh my GOD, THEY WAKE UP WITH BLOOD IN THE SHEETS HOW HORRIFYING!"). Or, worse yet, if he makes it come off as a voyeuristic fantasy by focusing heavily on the colour and density and texture of periods. Reading a medical textbook on menstruation might give him a medically accurate view, but it's no substitute for talking to someone who has been through it, like how reading a historical textbook about a time period cannot give you the same clear picture as reading diaries and personal stories from someone who has lived through that period.

If someone only writes same-sex stories because they think it's cute but otherwise refuse to have anything to do with gay rights in real life and rely only on lazy stereotypes and treat these stories as "the forbidden fruit", then it becomes a problem. Whereas writing about queer culture from the perspective of someone who's been there can create a better sense of empathy and perspective, and portray GLBTQIA people as, well, people. Straight writers are certainly capable of doing the same, too, but only if they take the initiative to learn about queer culture. You don't have to have the same experiences as the people you're writing about since empathy does exist in fiction writing, but that empathy can only exist if you take the time to actually understand what it is you're writing instead of going off of stereotypes and assumptions.

(Side note: Not every single story with a GLBTQIA protagonist needs to be about queer culture, but I think this discussion is helpful if you do want to write about queer culture or avoid the usual offensive tropes that can occur when writing for BxB or GxG--let people write about what they want, but also give them advice about how to write about what they want)

@SinSisters
The point of GLBTQIA events is to give GLBTQIA people a safe space to discuss their experiences without fear of ridicule, and sometimes just hang out and chill. I'm failing to see why events that include every identity other than "cis and het" is bad...? It would be like complaining that Black History Month is "discrimination" because it doesn't talk about contributions from white people.

[Hijiri]

@SinSisters
The point of GLBTQIA events is to give GLBTQIA people a safe space to discuss their experiences without fear of ridicule, and sometimes just hang out and chill. I'm failing to see why events that include every identity other than "cis and het" is bad...? It would be like complaining that Black History Month is "discrimination" because it doesn't talk about contributions from white people.

But isnt an LGBT event a good chance to educate people about the community? I mean, if you welcome everyone then its a good chance for the uninitated to learn about those who are LGBT. Keeping straight cisgendered individuals from participating would be like, using your example, having a Black History Month event for only back people.

[Obscura]

I guess I'll chime in here, since I am someone whose inbox is crammed full of emails from gay men:

1) thanking me for making my game
2) amused and appreciative I wrote something that closely resembles their personal coming out experience
3) thanking me for making something that resonates with them
4) mistaking me for a gay man

So I just want to say it is entirely possible to write outside of your given identity. And have people like what you do, too.

I consume media made and written by gay men for a larger audience. I consume media made by people not part of my ethnic group or gender, who write about my ethnic group and gender, and sometimes do a better job of it than people who supposedly look like me and share my identity.

I personally don't understand yaoi tropes which is partly why I made this game. But I'm not going to turn around and start berating people for playing something that suits their fancy. Especially considering the fact there are gay men who like yaoi themselves.

From my experience, men who are attracted to men do not constitute some huge monolith with the same tastes, experiences, and backgrounds. (Partcularly given the social changes experienced with each new generation and the rise of social networking apps.)

I could go on for pages about this, but at this point, I gotta get back to work--I have a few thousand people now (overwhemingly gay and male) waiting for me to finish COOT and I'm focused on doing the best job possible. It's probably not a huge number for your average video game, but their enjoyment is of utmost important to me. They are the best fans I could ever imagine having and my goal is to provide them with an unforgettable experience.

[SinSisters]

@SinSisters
The point of GLBTQIA events is to give GLBTQIA people a safe space to discuss their experiences without fear of ridicule, and sometimes just hang out and chill. I'm failing to see why events that include every identity other than "cis and het" is bad...? It would be like complaining that Black History Month is "discrimination" because it doesn't talk about contributions from white people.

Oh, I don't think that LGBTQ+ events discriminate against cis heterosexual people, rather, I think that it's a form of self-discrimination. It's a reminder that LGBTQ+ people are 'different'. I suppose, though, it depends on where you live. For me, since gay marriage (since that's still one of the biggest issues in the states, in my opinion... what is stopping the government from just making it a national law? Republicans/??) is legal in Canada and has been for a while, there's noticeably less discrimination (legally, none is allowed), so I kinda just want to move forward and have sexual orientations just not be real matter of discussion. Obvious, it is, if we're still having issue like what this entire topic is about (the fact that there are not enough good quality GxG & BxB games that are not rape-oriented, sex focused, etc.), but a girl can hope

-Nat

[Caveat Lector]

"Self-discrimination"? Well, look at it like this: Let's say you're bullied a lot at school for having red hair. So you go home and start up your own "ginger club" for other classmates who have red hair so you can all get together and hang out and chill, and share stories. Is it self-discrimination to point out you have red hair and discuss having red hair? Maybe some red-heads don't want to go to this club because they don't feel comfortable with discussing their experiences, so they choose not to go. I'm...really, really not getting how GLBTQIA events are "self-discrimination". Again, Black History Month example--I have yet to hear of any black people bemoaning the existence of Black History Month because it "reminds them" that they're "different".

Also, I live in Canada, too. Technically, sexual orientation is always talked about, it's just that one type (heterosexuality) is talked about more--straight people's interest in members of the opposite sex. If a guy talks about how hot Neil Patrick Harris is shirtless, that's still technically talking about his orientation.

[Enigma]

"Self-discrimination"? Well, look at it like this: Let's say you're bullied a lot at school for having red hair. So you go home and start up your own "ginger club" for other classmates who have red hair so you can all get together and hang out and chill, and share stories. Is it self-discrimination to point out you have red hair and discuss having red hair? Maybe some red-heads don't want to go to this club because they don't feel comfortable with discussing their experiences, so they choose not to go. I'm...really, really not getting how GLBTQIA events are "self-discrimination". Again, Black History Month example--I have yet to hear of any black people bemoaning the existence of Black History Month because it "reminds them" that they're "different".

Also, I live in Canada, too. Technically, sexual orientation is always talked about, it's just that one type (heterosexuality) is talked about more--straight people's interest in members of the opposite sex. If a guy talks about how hot Neil Patrick Harris is shirtless, that's still technically talking about his orientation.

Really? You've never heard black people talk about black history month being insulting, because some of us do. A lot more than you'd think. I myself think we shouldn't need a black history month, though I think that as things are, it's doing well enough.

EDIT: By the way, just to clarify, I neutral between what you and sinsisters are talking about currently cause I'm not really informed enough.

[SinSisters]

I clarified what I meant with the rest of my post. Some people need it and others don't. I wish that we didn't. And yes, as Enigma has said, I have actually heard plenty of people not liking black history month. Namely, Morgan Freeman

-Nat

[smallstar]

@Caveat Lector
Lmao, most people at my high school who aren't queer and out/in the GSA don't really talk about it. I have only once been talked to about my sexuality the day after I came out, and that was two years ago. I know a lot of my friends know, but they haven't ever brought it up, or they talk to me about my "future boyfriends and husbands" like oh my god... stop. When gay rights are brought up for whatever reason a lot of people are awkward about it; they definitely don't feel comfortable talking about and probably even just thinking about it. There's a good amount of well-liked and popular kids in my school's GSA so that prevents people from talking trash too loud, but it still happens a lot lol.

"He's done some bi stuff? What is wrong with him?" And by the same group, "Lesbians are so hot!"
"Wouldn't it be gross to have a lesbian in the locker room?"
"Bi is gross, like, be straight! Be gay! Choose one!!"
Referring to some dude wearing something "gay" iirc, "I always knew he was a f*ggot!"

Etc. + heavy usage of slurs and straight people who squee over their "cute gays" and wanting "gay bffs." That's the bad stuff obviously, ahaha, there are people who are chill about it and/or supportive without being overbearing, mainly in the GSA. I probably just have the misfortune of not knowing many of those people.

@SinSisters
I don't really see how it's self-discrimination? I'll be seen as "different" by cishet people no matter what I do, like... wanting to hang out and talk with other people like me isn't going to affect me negatively. It shouldn't. I don't really see anything wrong with it. LGBTQA only events (for me) are for people to be able to hang out and meet with people they can easily relate to. They are not about educating cishet people, who really have no reason to be there. There are other groups and events where they can go to get educated and talk to people. It isn't a big deal if they don't have access to every single part of the community because it's not for them.

[Caveat Lector]

@smallstar
Oh yeah, maybe I didn't quite phrase my point very well. I was referring more to the suggestion that we should reach a day where we just "don't talk about orientation". Like...technically, we talk about heterosexual relationships all the time. I'm not sure what that point was trying to get it...like the idea that some day we can talk about whom we like without it being treated as "weird" by others? Or because we just shouldn't talk about orientation at all period?

The odd thing is, as a teen, I learned more about homosexuality from fanfiction then I did from my (public, secular) high school. That's got to be a bad sign. As far as I know, it just wasn't talked about, not openly at least.

@SinSisters
Like, as in you wish we could progress to the point where openly discussing our sexuality and whom we like is widely accepted and we don't need to hide it or confine it to just one space? Sure, I'm down for that! But until then, some people just feel more comfortable in allied spaces where they can discuss their experiences, and that should be respected. Not everyone is ready to openly and casually come out to others.

Also, not aware of the Black History Month bit--just using it as a general example for why I don't understand why GLBTQIA events are "self-discriminatory". It's not about making anyone feel uncomfortable with themselves. It's about providing a safe space to openly discuss and celebrate being GLBTQIA. If someone doesn't want to go to these events, that's their right, they don't have to go if they don't feel comfortable. And they're not obligated to, it's about making people feel comfortable. And sorry, nope, still don't get the "self-discrimination" bit. Maybe the black history month bit wasn't a great example, but again, still don't get it.

But we're getting off-topic here. Back to the topic at hand...

I'd like to know what people's thoughts are in regards to what constitutes a gay relationship being fetishized. To you, when does that line get crossed?

EDIT: Disclaimer: Create whatever you want! But if you want to know what others' opinions are on the topic (as part of a presumably respectful discussion I hope), please stick around.

[Enigma]

I'd like to know what people's thoughts are in regards to what constitutes a gay relationship being fetishized. To you, when does that line get crossed?

Someone mentioned something about the relationship being the plot and the characters being near personalitiless plot devices as happening. That's probably where I'd call it fetishization.

[Laiska]

I'd like to know what people's thoughts are in regards to what constitutes a gay relationship being fetishized. To you, when does that line get crossed?

Someone mentioned something about the relationship being the plot and the characters being near personalitiless plot devices as happening. That's probably where I'd call it fetishization.

It's fetishized when the very fact of the characters being gay—that perceived 'hotness' or 'taboo' or what have you—is the factor that a creator wishes for the audience to find exciting, when it is the sexuality and not the characters themselves are the focus. In a good romance, we the audience should be excited that those particular characters are in a relationship with each other, and what that means for the characters, how that relationship expounds on and develops them as a person. What you do not want is for their relationship to exist merely as a 'ooh they're gay, how sexy/thrilling/strange', while the characters are themselves, as Enigma basically said, only props.

[blankd]

@Caveat Lector about "writing"
I got that gist but still felt the need to point out what I said.

Modern experiences and feelings don't translate 1:1 in other settings, hell even history if you look. That kind of thing. It seems arbitrary to denounce potential canon queer characters on a criteria that has a limited application. I'm not denouncing criticism of representation since it's important but I feel it's a topic worth addressing.

And maybe I'm doing something wrong or maybe have a misguided attitude about it but I feel like having more diverse people in ALL kinds of genres will be more helpful than simply adhering to "modern fiction" hence my question about what others think about LGBTA portrayal in other genres/settings. Are canon LGBTA characters in fantasy where maybe being queer is more acceptable somehow less authentic or feel less real to the audience, etc.

I'd like to know what people's thoughts are in regards to what constitutes a gay relationship being fetishized. To you, when does that line get crossed?

Honestly (and very subjectively speaking) it's when the relationship is a toxic one where the abuse of the "bottom" is touted as tru-wuv. I got nothing against kinks but it's one thing to call it a kink and another to act like a relationship one character -really wants out of- is treated as normal or desirable. Especially if an abused character eventually stockholms to the abuser.

The other obvious one is the repeated forced misgendering and "wife-ification" of one of the male characters who doesn't like or want any of this treatment but is subjected to it anyway and it's counted as "cute" for some reason.

The former is more universal of romance in general (seriously why do so many genres romanticize bad relationships?) but the latter seems to crop up more in gay romance. For lesbian relationships it's either more repetition of the "universally bad relationships" or it's extremely blatant in its "two girls being sexy for the sake of male gaze".

That being said, I'd like to hear about what others think about settings where being LGBTA isn't stigmatized (or a setting where the stigmas are different) and if there are any common issues that can be avoided when depicting these characters and their respective relationships. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would find this useful. EDIT: Assuming this question isn't getting too far off topic of course...

[Laiska]

Honestly (and very subjectively speaking) it's when the relationship is a toxic one where the abuse of the "bottom" is touted as tru-wuv. I got nothing against kinks but it's one thing to call it a kink and another to act like a relationship one character -really wants out of- is treated as normal or desirable. Especially if an abused character eventually stockholms to the abuser.

I think this is a very specific kind of fetishization, seen mostly in yaoi. Basically any unrealistic portrayal of a queer relationship, put into a work purely for the excitement or titillation surrounding its queerness, is fetishized.

[-Ren-]

I definitely wish there was more GxG and BxB, although I'll admit I've never read or played anything that is BxB, I have however read a lot of GxG (over 100 manga and counting! ^-^). In my opinion, if it's done right, they can be a lot more powerful than regular heterosexual stuff, simply for the fact that any two people that can overcome the hardships that come with it deserve a lot of respect in my mind, and prove that love is something that can transcend boundaries of what 'normal' people deem to be 'normal'.

Sadly though, it's also a genre that is heavily ridden with horrible tropes and cliches - as a lot have already mentioned, this notion that there needs to be an 'attacker' and a 'submissive' one in these kinds of relationships kinda makes me sick. There's also the notion that homosexual relationships are nothing more than transient, as is seen in a lot of GxG BxB Japanese media. Homosexual in highschool or whatever, after graduation - get married and have kids. It makes me a little sad =(

We need more of this genre! It makes me sad though that I've never ventured into the BxB realm - I'm male, and it still makes me a little uncomfortable, especially because most manga/games end with some sort of H-scene. If I find something nice and light (Fu-Fu / Ameiro Kouchakan Kandan style of fluffy!) I'll definitely check it out.

P.S. I'm only starting out my VN making empire! But, they are all going to be GxG!