Lemma Soft Forums

I'd like to do a poll... Is that a thing on this forum? Plz help.

I'm currently working on a VN and I'm trying out a thing for it. Something I personally have never seen before and I imagine that if I did it might piss me off.
It's got paths, right? All paths are character specific. But they're KIND OF A LITTLE BIT ordered (at the very least, there is a true path). And to allow myself to
put them in order, I came up with making them IN ORDER.
In your entire playthrough, there are no choices that would lead you to go into a different path. Some choices affect the story in later moments, but there is
an argument to be made that it's 'kinetic'. Instead of making choices and going into a path that way, your path changes (in order) every time you finish and restart the game.

Question is, is this a bad thing? Could this work? Should I generally avoid this? Do people do this often?

It's not too late to change it. It could probably work either way. I kind of like the freedom this gives me as a writer but recognize it restricts the freedom of the player...
Please share your opinions, I'd like to gauge what everyone thinks about this before it's too late.

so you saying you want the character to time travel back and forth until the story is finish? or do you want different endings each time someone plays the game? i don't quite understand how this will be done.

firecat wrote:so you saying you want the character to time travel back and forth until the story is finish? or do you want different endings each time someone plays the game? i don't quite understand how this will be done.

Damnit explaining is hard. Essentially the latter. Each subsequent time you play the game, you get a different ending. Let's see if I can edit my post to make that clear.

I think this can work. Here are some usability concerns that can be easily addressed:

1. Make sure the reader knows that another run will result in another story.

2. Give the reader ways to access previous stories they have "unlocked" that don't unlock more stories than they've progressed through.

You're going to need to make the subsequent stories, in particular the second story, really compelling. If it's just a rehash of events from the first storyline but from a different POV, that can be interesting... but must show a lot of new sides the reader hadn't considered before.

You can definitely use the reader's prior knowledge to shortcut through multiple passages in the subsequent stories, and use that to build and build and build... until the penultimate story.

I think this can work and be AWESOME but you'll need to story chops to pull it off.

ArachneJericho wrote:I think this can work. Here are some usability concerns that can be easily addressed: ...

Huh, wow. Thanks. The first two of course have occured to me as well, but I'm not sure if the each subsequent path is worth playing until they branch off... I was actually just going to assume the player skips the scenes that aren't any different, especially since Ren'Py allows for that (and I've played a VN that has you do that anyway) but on second thought that's dumb.

I'll either change it so that each subsequent playthrough will be different enough to warrant going through essentially the same story a second time, or just do it like every other VN ever and have the player choose the path by making choices. I'll think about it. Thanks for the input.

I think I understand, but please tell me if we're on the same page:

Hypothetically there are three characters, each with their own route. Let's call them John, Allan, and Steve.
Also hypothetically, there are some scenes that all routes share. Let's call these common.

The player starts the game for the first time, and views CommonScene-1. Then they view JohnScene-1. Then they view JohnScene-2, then CommonScene-2, then JohnScene-3, and then the ending (EndingJohn).

The player restarts the game, and views CommonScene-1 again. Then they view AllanScene-1, then AllanScene-2, then CommonScene-2, then AllanScene-3, and let's say Allan's route has an extra part, so the user also sees AllanScene-4, and then the EndingAllan.

The player restarts the game again, and this time views the scenes for Steve (common scenes are still there).

Is that what you're envisioning?

Suika wrote:I think I understand, but please tell me if we're on the same page:
...

What an extremely understandable explanation. That is literally exactly what it's like.

It's possible and can work if done right. As ArachneJericho said already, the player has to know it will end differently. "New route unlocked" or something similar after the first playthrough (BEFORE the credits or whatever) would be sufficient.
For preserving the old routes, you could give the player a choice which route he wants either at the beginning of the game or directly before it branches off. The choice will only be unlocked after the first playthrough and will only contain routes that are already available.

Also, it has to bring substantial new content or the second playthrough will be the last. As a player I expect a completely new story or at least a completely new perspective from the new playthrough. Just the thoughts of Person B instead of Person A who both were at each scene would be boring.

I agree that this has potential, and that it is important to notify the player of new endings, and have substantial content in the replays.

I'll add the following:

1) The skip feature will be critical. Ideally the player will be able to fast-forward through scenes that they have already read, and/or jump to new content. Of course, it shouldn't skip over new content. Ren'Py has this feature, but minor customization to add some more advanced functionality could help this concept - as it will have more / a different type of replay than the average VN.

2) As Milkymalk pointed out, new content and perspectives are important. The new scenes will be the major factors, but adding minor changes or additions to the common scenes would encourage me to read them again (and look for the differences) instead of skipping the common portions.

3) I'd start with the route that is most important to you as a writer. Inevitably, the first route will get more playtime than the others.

4) Consider adding visual cues when new content is about to surface.

5) Player rewards will make or break this style of novel. If the player gets satisfaction after each route, and is lead to believe there will be more satisfaction of the same type ahead, they will continue to strive towards 100% route completion. For me, the ending itself is a reward, especially if I'm trying to find my favourite character's route. However, unlocking CGs in a gallery, endings in an ending gallery, additional music (if viable), etc. are all additional methods of rewarding players for route completion.

Lastly, (this may go without saying) I'd like to explicitly state that I find value in common routes. While it is important to add or change a substantial amount of content between routes, it is also important to keep them similar enough to connect them, and for us to feel like they are still the same story (albeit different versions).

Oh jeesh, that's some fantastic advice. Really helped me clear up a lot of worries I had too. Thanks a ton, I'll definitely consider this in my game.

Glad to hear. I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with ^.^

I was playing 999 and it sort of did what you were talking about...even with a True ending you couldn't get until you've played all the other routes.

I personally hate that sort of thing and never finished playing all the routes. There are people who like it, so do your thing. You will find an audience. I will not be one of those audience members. I don't like the artificiality of route ordering which breaks my immersion, I don't like the forced replaying. Yeah, I just don't like it. But, again, other people do like it.

trooper6 wrote:I was playing 999 and it sort of did what you were talking about...even with a True ending you couldn't get until you've played all the other routes.

Well, 999 did it... clumsily. If you do everything right on your first try and you're about to get to the big finale...

Yeah, 999's awkward that way. The sequel Virtue's Last Reward handles the whole route-unlocking thing more elegantly. There are a LOT of things to unlock, not just the one cut-off point at the end, and the plot-branch tree makes it easy to jump to points in the story to explore other branches and go through things that have recently unlocked. It makes the play experience much more comfortable.

I don't usally like being locked out of routes, unless there is a really, really good reason for it. (For example in Virtue's last reward, I consider the game one long route because route jumping ends up being so significant to the story.)

Also you run another risk since it is character centered.
To take Suika's example, I might like Steve and Allan, but what if I'm indifferent to John? That could make me never complete the game because I never get into the first character. (And I assume that with a build like that, the intention is for me to play all routes and not just one.) Now there is some genre where I wouldn't complain so much, but those a more plot centered.

Also I hope that what you have planned isn't a romance VN.