Dealing with criticism (aspiring VN creator)

[champignonkinoko]

Hi all! I posted a couple of screenshots on Tumblr recently: http://champignonkinoko.tumblr.com/post ... -d-journey

I had intentionally chosen bits of the dialogue that wouldn't let out too much spoilers, but I received criticism from an anonymous user on Tumblr who said the dialogues were trashy. There was also another anonymous user who mentioned that "art on some free VNs were better" but did not specify what VNs he/she was referring to.

My question to other VN developers:
1. Have you received criticism?
2. If yes to above, does this make you feel like abandoning the development of your VN?
3. In the case of aforementioned criticisms, do you think I should've released screencaps of more meaningful dialogues (but with spoilers) instead?

[RotGtIE]

Labeling criticism as destructive is a really bad habit to get into.

[Laniessa]

Dealing by this question by question, I'll do this for my artwork, since I'm not publicly developing a game yet.

Of course, yes I have. People don't have to necessarily justify every flaw they see, and they aren't obliged to put it in an encouraging, helpful way. For art, it does tend to demotivate me, but I typically ask for help from people around me to fix up what the flaws could be!

In the case of what you mentioned, I do think putting more interesting dialogue would hook in more people. Of course, if your purpose in putting up the screenshots was to promote it, more meaningful dialogue would be preferred. In the case of just showcasing the game's UI / art / just progress that has been made, I don't think it's necessary. From what I see, I can't get any idea of your game at all from the dialogue, and the dialogue seem rather bland, but I would skip over it, thinking that it's not what you wanted to showcase. For the art, there are flaws with anatomy and shading that detract from it, and, well, considering we have free VNs like Juniper's Knot and Autumn's Journey, yes, art on some free VNs are better. That's a bit of a moot point, for me.

@RotGtIE: Man, I got caught up in their usage of 'destructive' too, but apparently it's used around the internet.

[Shaples]

"Trashy"?

... I... What?

Uuugh, anons ><

People who say/do things like this are basically the vermin of the internet, and unfortunately there are plenty of them. They say mean things for the sake of being mean, and because they can get away with it because, hey, anonymity! The worst part is, this kind of hurtful feedback is the hardest to ignore. You can get a hundred good comments, but it's going to be that one nasty, spiteful one that keeps you up at night and makes you question yourself. But what you need to remember is, this kind of feedback has almost no value and no meaning. You've basically reached into your ask box and had something nasty bite you for no reason, and you should try to treat it like that. The thing will bite because that's what it does. It has nothing to do with you or your work, and you should try (and it's SO hard, I know) not to let it impact your work, because it's not you, it's THEM.

All criticism hurts, but there's a difference between criticism that can make your work better, and criticism that just makes you feel bad. It's important to know the difference, and to not dismiss all criticism out of hand, but if there's nothing helpful about a comment, if it's confusingly vague, or especially if it's intentionally vicious, let it go. Complain to someone who understands. Yell, cry, punch a pillow. But don't let it stop you from doing your thing. If you do, the anons win - and there's nothing worse than letting the anons win.

As for your screencaps themselves, it depends on what you want them to do. If you want to show off your art and UI, the pics you have do that perfectly well. If you want to give people a sense of the writing, I think you might want to worry a little less about spoilers. A few out-of-context lines of dialogue aren't going to give away the whole game, but having a few shots of longer pieces of dialogue or exposition might give people a better sense of the style and characters, which will help grab their attention.

[Taleweaver]

Labeling criticism as destructive is a really bad habit to get into.

This is an utterly useless statement, definitely one only a profoundly stupid person could have made and not helpful in the least. You should never ever try giving anyone advice ever again!!!!!!!111one

This was an example of a very unhelpful, destructive piece of criticism, and it's perfectly alright to call it that.

You have a good point stating that one cannot be careful enough in labeling criticism "destructive" just because it isn't what one wanted to hear. Then again, it's not that hard to identify criticism that clearly serves only the purpose of denigrating a work or its creator. Ad hominems or comments consisting entirely of four-letter-words are a good sign that, indeed, a piece of criticism may be destructive.

On the matter of how to deal with it: The only advice I can give is: ignore it. Don't feed the trolls. Don't give them the satisfaction of having gotten under your skin. Accept the fact that anonymity on the internet comes at the price of people abusing it.

[champignonkinoko]

Labeling criticism as destructive is a really bad habit to get into.

I thought I needed to make it clear. Some criticisms can be constructive (ones I always welcome and I wouldn't be making a post on lemmasoft about it) and others destructive.

People don't have to necessarily justify every flaw they see, and they aren't obliged to put it in an encouraging, helpful way.

I wasn't expecting such an impartial statement. Says something positive about maturity levels of the lemmasoft community

For the art, there are flaws with anatomy and shading that detract from it, and, well, considering we have free VNs like Juniper's Knot and Autumn's Journey, yes, art on some free VNs are better.

Now I'm going to have to discuss with you further on this to get some feedback!

All criticism hurts, but there's a difference between criticism that can make your work better, and criticism that just makes you feel bad. It's important to know the difference, and to not dismiss all criticism out of hand, but if there's nothing helpful about a comment, if it's confusingly vague, or especially if it's intentionally vicious, let it go.

Thanks Shaples! I'll be trying my best to let it go now *Plays Let It Go (Frozen) in head*
It's true and important to distinguish between the criticism that helps and the ones that don't, and I agree with that. Talk about shades of grey. Unfortunately I don't know anyone (personally) who's also developing a VN, so I thought maybe I could seek advice from the lemmasoft community. And what a good choice that was!

A few out-of-context lines of dialogue aren't going to give away the whole game, but having a few shots of longer pieces of dialogue or exposition might give people a better sense of the style and characters, which will help grab their attention.

That's a good idea! I'll have to put on my writing cap now

Accept the fact that anonymity on the internet comes at the price of people abusing it.

If you tweeted that, I'm betting it'll go viral I'll not be letting it get under my skin then (or at least try to). It's the first time I've been flamed, but I guess I just need to grow up. Thanks!

[Marionette]

Just gotta learn to take it on the chin. Nobody likes getting bad feedback about thier stuff, but its something you'll have to deal with becuse as long as you're doing something creative, people will always have opnions on it. Good and bad.

Critisim is like getting a present from a stranger, you just accept it at the time and then afterwards, if its good you keep it and if not throw it away.

If you look at it impartially and use it to your advantage where appropriate then theres not really bad critisim. I mean everyone is entitled to their opnion and barring someone just intentionally trolling then there'll always be at least a little truth behind even the most venomous looking posts. Even if that truth is simply, 'this game just isn't for me'.

Take this particular 'Distructive' Critisim for example; It's obviously got you thinking, and if you use it to improve your next posts, then, even if it was a shitty post to get about your stuff, you still used it to your advantage and since in a roundabout way it helped, can it really still be classed as distructive?

The only bad feedback is no feedback.

But Regardless of what you decide to do with it, don't let it discourage you. Keep doing what you want to do, and if you think its not valid feedback, then feel free to ignore it. As much as they have their opnions, you're allowed to have yours.

[blankd]

As someone who has been called "too critical" I will say that the anons' "basic idea" weren't terribly far off the mark, the dialogue is not the best and the art has some big, but relatively easy fixes to make.

That being said, there is ALMOST no such thing as bad feedback, and it is ultimately up to you what you want to do with it. Even the "most destructive" comment can result in a better end result, especially if some anons are hyperspecific about what they think will cripple your ego or ability to produce artwork. (obviously "you suck" is generic and unhelpful as you can get)

Of course you don't have to take the crit if you really don't want to but then the responsibility rests firmly on your shoulders. Being a creator is a lot in of itself and most of all, it is often thankless, that's why not everyone is cut out for it. The same applies for criticism/critique, a lot of time people have no idea how to actually phrase or parse what they take issue with and that's why you have to squeeze the essence out of, at times, frustrating broad statements.

tl;dr: Either ignore it or try to refine criticism from the lemons you get.

[Caveat Lector]

Let me say first of all that, to some extent, I fully understand where you are coming from. I understand having a kneejerk reaction to criticism of something you worked hard on.

...But with that said, I also agree with RotGtIE that you should not label any criticism that's unflattering as destructive.

Because here is the thing: Destructive criticism? Is outright emotional abuse, saying that something is so horrible that the author should go have relations with a deer infested with diseases (and that's one of the nicer things internet bullies say! In fact, instead of calling them trolls, let's call them what they are--bullies). THAT is what I would call destructive. If someone calls your dialogue trashy without saying why, that is not exactly helpful or constructive per se but it is far from saying "this work is horrible and you are a horrible person", either.

[papillon]

I had intentionally chosen bits of the dialogue that wouldn't let out too much spoilers, but I received destructive criticism from an anonymous user on Tumblr who said the dialogues were trashy.

The problems with labeling this criticism as 'destructive' have already been stated, I just wanted to touch on the earlier thought.

It's really hard, as an author with your precious precious story in you, to figure out how much of the plot you can give away. I know this, it drives me crazy too because I hate spoiling things, I want people to be surprised when my plot twist thumps them. BUT! If you are too protective of your story, you end up hiding anything and everything that might make your story interesting - and no one will want to read it.

Nobody wants to see screenshots of characters saying "..." or "Hi."

If you're posting early screenshots JUST to show art and absolutely don't want to reveal any plot at all, you're probably better off having the text say "Ipsum dolor" or "I am speaking in placeholder" or something to make it clear to the viewer that this isn't real dialogue and they shouldn't be evaluating it on those terms. Or even fake dialogue that's entertaining somehow. What you don't want to do is get the viewer setting up an instinctive mental connection between your game and boredom.

[raistlintg]

Nobody wants to see screenshots of characters saying "..." or "Hi."

Funny, this is exactly one of my (many many) mistakes.

Champignonkinoko, you should see a criticism as something which can't be destructive.
Why ? Because it's aimed not at you, but at your work, something that can be done and redone again if necessary.
Your story is never "destructed" as long as you still want to carry on.

Tell yourself this : would you prefer it if no one had visited your blog ??
The person that posted that comment may lack tact, but they still took the time to tell you what they thought, because they acknowledged your work.
And that's a first step !!

[SundownKid]

Most of the negative criticism I've gotten was along the lines of "lol VN's are dum, they r no gam" or something. The vast majority of my feedback has been positive, saying they liked the game or wanted to play it on Steam, etc. So definitely no, it hasn't made me think twice about abandoning anything.

For your second question, yes some of them are a bit strange, like the character going "...". I think screenshots should showcase the best of your game, they are marketing after all.

However I don't think the art is poor. Yeah some free VNs could have better art but that's a totally unfair comparison, since there are probably only a few free VN's with very high quality art.

Also most negative comments are trolling. Anyone who says "*** sucks" instead of "*** could be better" is trying to anger you and has an ulterior motive.

[Donmai]

I agree with nearly everything Marionette had to say, but

The only bad feedback is no feedback.

I would say the worst feedback is no feedback at all (only my personal thought, of course).

Just gotta learn to take it on the chin.

Yes, to me that's the most important thing to do. I'm a very very shy person. When I show my work to others, of course I must prepare myself to face unexpected reactions. Some time ago I showed the beta version of my premiere work to this community. My thread remained there, ignored, for days. Then came the long awaited first comment:

This story was boring. im sorry, but if I were to rate it i would give it a 4/10. I like thrills, i thought this would thrill to me, not be boring.

I had to thank that guy. At first I had thought that writing a romantic story with the look and feel of a horror story was a good idea.
He showed me some horror fans would not agree.

[Kinjo]

Seems like a lot has already been said here, but I want to clarify my stance on this.

Never ignore criticism. If you continually ignore criticism over time, it makes you into a person who thinks they are infallible, and prevents you from growing as a person. Waving comments off as "they are just saying that to be mean to me" is short-sighted. People who honestly tell you what they think provide the best feedback, because there are so many people who are afraid to speak their minds and keep it to themselves. That's not helping you at all if you only receive the positive and not the negative. If you want your game to become good, you need to open up to feedback that is not just positive but also negative.

Knowing when something is good enough is difficult. You can either make something to please yourself, or to please other people. Or both. It's not wrong for the anonymous person to dislike your story or art. Saying the writing was trash is one way to put it. Probably not the best way, but it's a way. Personally, the writing in the screenshots tells me nothing about the writing in the game, so I can't say for sure, but it's not very interesting at a glance. The art is nothing interesting for me either, but other people could think differently. You won't win everyone over. Nobody does, and that's the thing about doing art.

1. I have absolutely received negative feedback. People have told me my sprites are out of proportion, it doesn't look realistic, or my writing was really bad here or there. However, after receiving the feedback, I went back and redid my work, showed it to them again, and they approved of it. I got better at drawing and writing and here I am now. Without that feedback I wouldn't have improved myself. If people just said my stuff was alright from the start, I'd have a hard time believing them when nobody comments on the game at release time.

2. At times, negative feedback can make you want to give up. But that shouldn't be what makes you stop, if you choose to. It's fine to know your limits and decide to not work on a project of a larger scale than you can accomplish. That's called making smart decisions. But if you're quitting because people don't respond well to your stuff, well, you have to realize stuff like that sometimes happens. This isn't really a thing where "everyone is a winner". Some VNs are just badly made, and people who inform you of what they don't like are doing it as a courtesy to help you make it better.

3. Yeah, you should have released more interesting screenshots. As was said by papillon, it's hard to see what makes your game stand out from the screenshots and generic dialogue alone. In fact, nothing in that link told me about your game. I don't know what it's about at all. So I would suggest you use this experience to help you next time.

[Enigma]

There's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, but I can add more emphasis to the part about being thick skinned as a creator and sometime just outright ignore comments.