Cheap Labor: When People Undersell Themselves

[Mad Harlequin]

I'm mostly with Rozume on this one, but I'd like to add that people offering their work for free and those who offer paid commissions are two completely different issues. There's nothing wrong with the way you handle things, not at all -- there can be plenty of reasons for doing so; gathering samples, simply trying to get one's name out there when starting out, being a die-hard hobbyist, and so on.

They're different issues, but according to Rozume's argument, those who undersell cheapen their craft. How is someone like me supposed to feel about such an assertion? So these two issues are actually at least partially related.

The thing is, those who do ask for payment usually have a good reason to do so. (Excluding the large amount of artists who figure they can make some quick cash and then realize it's too much for them to handle after all.) For a lot of people including myself, time = money. I simply cannot afford to give away my art, writing, programming, and so on for free because I have to pay for food, water, my car, art supplies etc. while being a full-time student. The amount of people who apparently thought my food and shelter just magically appeared out of nowhere and that my free-time is a never-ending resource is frightening.

Did I say something that implied I'm not aware of these types of things? I know how valuable free time is. I just happen to have a lot more of it at the moment because I'm still seeking gainful employment.

Obviously I'd be happy to be paid. I have the required skill. But there's almost nobody out there who offers paying work of this type. I've applied for such positions (both here and elsewhere) in the past and have ended up being thrown out because my work wasn't seen as good enough.

I'm left with only one option: doing something really good for free, and then holding it up as an example of how good I am so no one can doubt me again.

[CSV]

So this made me think of a very interesting post I found a while back. I agree with it and I feel it explains the issue well; however, I also underprice my art.
At least, I think I do. The problem is there is no standard pricing and artists who are not as great fear they are being greedy. I am afraid people will look at my art and think I am being conceited, asking for that price when I'm not that good to begin with. Also, tradicional artists are not as well regarded as digital artists, at least from what I can see.
I am guessing the simplest answer would be to create an industry standard for prices and quality, but how would someone go around doing that in the first place?

[Rozume]

I am guessing the simplest answer would be to create an industry standard for prices and quality, but how would someone go around doing that in the first place?

Let me refer you to The Graphic Artists Guild Handbook.

[Rossfellow]

I really don't think artists "undersell" themselves for the purpose of bringing down other artists. As long as there isn't a market price for art, prices from artist to artist will always vary wildly, regardless of quality.

You are running the assumption that art as a market is the same as Human Resources, where labor laws apply. It's not. There is no minimum wage, and equal opportunity does not necessarily mean equal results. That's just the way it is.

You are also running the assumption that cheap artists will take jobs away from more expensive artists. It will not. Just because there are people who can draw like Shaun Healy or Tetsuya Nomura, and do so for cheap, does not mean that people will stop hiring these expensive artists. It's harsh, but it's the responsibility of the artist to find a market for their work.

Edit: If you really feel bad about cheap artists underselling themselves, and you're hiring one, you can just leave a bonus. You can't change cheapskate clients in regular retail, let alone the art market.

[Kinjo]

So this made me think of a very interesting post I found a while back. I agree with it and I feel it explains the issue well; however, I also underprice my art.

I would be going on a huge tangent to talk about that post but I'm noticing that post is also utilizing guilt trips and a few logical fallacies in order to prove its point. Haggling an artist to raise their prices is just as bad as haggling to lower them. That post raises just about any counter-argument and then completely shuts them down as if they are black and white issues with a clear, definitive answer. I don't think that's the case.

If an artist under-prices themselves and I would feel bad as a result of that, then I would tip them and advise them that their art is worth more than that. Then they can take it or leave it, because it's their art, and so they should be able to set their own prices for it. If they lose out on potential profit, that's their loss, and they need to learn from it themselves. Not for the sake of pleasing others like that article suggests.

[Caveat Lector]

@Godline
...There's a lot I have to respond to. Mainly, these points:

When it comes to VNs it's all about the passion behind it. If you WANT to do it, to be involved in a project, to see your work out there you're going to have to work for free/little pay.

Most people on here that create free projects do it on a collaboration basis. They do it because they love the art, even though they're not going to get any money from it - whether be artist or writer.
...

But I don't think it's fair for you to claim that everyone is to be like you and everyone should get paid for their services - because for some people it's about the collaboration. Not about the pay.
...

I guess if you're not passionate enough, no amount of money can make it worth it in the end.

But for most people I've come across on the forum it's about sharing passions together and creating together.

All of this sounds dangerously close to the argument that REAL artists don't make money, while artists who try to make a living off their work are "selling out"--if not exact, then very, very close. If someone is extraordinarily talented and they are charging money for their services based around their skill and the time it takes to fully execute that skill, YES, they SHOULD get paid. With money. Actual money they can use to pay the bills or fund an operation or pour into another more expensive dream project they'd have to fund out of their own pocket or eventually buy a new house with or whatever they choose. "Passion" and "teamwork" and "exposure" are not currencies. Some people might do what they do as a hobby and just happen to be particularly talented in that hobby, but otherwise not actually consider doing it in the long run, which is all well and good. That's fine, and should be respected. But artists who do want to make money off doing what they love should not be told that the only way they can hope to be involved in a project at all is to just accept getting paid in "experience". This blog post brings up a few excellent points on why it's important to pay your artist, and why exposure doesn't really amount to much in payment.

Maybe artists don't necessarily become overnight millionaires. But it's not unreasonable or unrealistic for an artist to want to make money with their art, either.

[CSV]

If an artist under-prices themselves and I would feel bad as a result of that, then I would tip them and advise them that their art is worth more than that. Then they can take it or leave it, because it's their art, and so they should be able to set their own prices for it. If they lose out on potential profit, that's their loss, and they need to learn from it themselves. Not for the sake of pleasing others like that article suggests.

I don't think it's about pleasing others. It's about being fair. Artists need to make a living out of their art - some of them, anyway. As I think it was said before, this might be about people still not seeing "artist" as being an actual job. And I am quite sure most commissioners wouldn't have your ethics: they would just keep getting art from artists at prices that are way too low, and never say anything about it.

[trooper6]

I'm with Caveat Lector here. People often say some professions should be doing it for free/cheap because they love their job...but other professions don't get treated that way.

For example, the college football players at UT Austin shouldn't get paid because they should be doing it for the love of the game. Sure they may get injured and have permanent damage...but this is about passion and love, not money! Yet...the Coach of UT Austin's football team makes $5million a year. $5 million!!!! Presumably he is passionate about coaching football. No one suggests he should be coaching for free or cheap. Part of the reason he can be paid so much is because the players aren't paid at all. So that starts feeling like exploitation.

Same thing with music. Musicians should accept they'll only get paid 50cents or a dollar for a $15 dollar CD...because, you know, passion! They should be in it for the art and not for the money. And when they've internalized that? Warner Brothers/BMG/Sony laugh all the way to the bank, profiting off the exploitation of their labor. Because you know the record company makes more than 50 cents an album.

You are a developer working for EA. They say you should be happy to only earn $3 per unit of that $60 AAA game, because passion! But EA is going to be making way more than that $3.

"The Man" convinces the worker that authenticity demands they don't get paid for their work. The Man has no such qualms about being paid...and taking the artist's share in addition to their own.

Stock Brokers and CEOs and Oil Companies don't underpay themselves because Passion! I'm sure Donald Trump is passionate about finance and real estate. He still gets paid.

Loving what you do should not be a sin whose penance is accepting exploitation.

[MaiMai]

I really don't think artists "undersell" themselves for the purpose of bringing down other artists. As long as there isn't a market price for art, prices from artist to artist will always vary wildly, regardless of quality.

You are running the assumption that art as a market is the same as Human Resources, where labor laws apply. It's not. There is no minimum wage, and equal opportunity does not necessarily mean equal results. That's just the way it is.

You are also running the assumption that cheap artists will take jobs away from more expensive artists. It will not. Just because there are people who can draw like Shaun Healy or Tetsuya Nomura, and do so for cheap, does not mean that people will stop hiring these expensive artists. It's harsh, but it's the responsibility of the artist to find a market for their work.

Edit: If you really feel bad about cheap artists underselling themselves, and you're hiring one, you can just leave a bonus. You can't change cheapskate clients in regular retail, let alone the art market.

I pretty much agree with Rossfellow here. Clients will find what they want in the end and it's clear our more experienced indie devs usually go outside of LSF to find the artists they need/want for their games. The artists who put up their "hire me" threads here aren't even a drop in the art market.

[Kinjo]

I don't think it's about pleasing others. It's about being fair. Artists need to make a living out of their art - some of them, anyway. As I think it was said before, this might be about people still not seeing "artist" as being an actual job. And I am quite sure most commissioners wouldn't have your ethics: they would just keep getting art from artists at prices that are way too low, and never say anything about it.

Right, I won't deny that there are plenty of people who would take advantage of others. It happens all the time.

I was only explaining what I personally would do. And I think different people would do different things, not simply what the author of that post wants us to do.

"I’m only doing this for fun, I don’t care about the money." - Good for you. But there are others that are trying to make a living doing this. Have some consideration for them, yes?
"It’s the clients pushing my prices down." - Gah. Then your clients are awful people who don’t respect you. It’s a trap though - you charge low prices, you get cheap clients. There’s only one way out of that trap.

These are some pretty hasty assumptions trying to generalize a specific and varied thing. The former is suggesting you should change your prices for the sake of others, because "you wouldn't want to be apathetic toward your fellow artists, would you?" and the latter is a flat-out strawman argument that suggests raising your prices is the "only" way to fix a problem that may not actually exist (the problem being: getting clients who are cheap and awful people, and blaming the artist for getting them in the first place).

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. I simply don't buy it.

[papillon]

I really don't think a person who is looking for an artist should ever ask them to haggle prices. For me personally though I've come to learn that people at times do things for money and forget what they're passionate about.

I'm passionate about game-making. I still need to make money at it so I can pay the rent and buy groceries.

Sure, if no one were wiling to buy my work I might still make games because I love making games, but it would take a lot longer and they'd look a lot uglier, because I'd have to survive and I'd only be able to do tiny amounts of work on my hobby in my spare time.

Because it's a business, I can devote myself to it.

Also writing is hard as well when it comes to games. You have to first write a rough draft, know punctuation, make the story and characters, and then rewrite everything. Sadly writers don't often get paid unless they are part of a group or company.

Writers get paid when they are hired or when they sell work. There are paying jobs for writers as well! But there are a lot of 'writers' who either want to be project managers or lack the skills to write for pay, or both. If you're in charge of the company, the only person paying you is you.

Artists don't get paid by manna from above either, they get paid for doing a job for someone else, or selling their work to someone else.

Also, and this is a truth that I've read on here, it's hard to make a living off of visual novels when you're starting out. I'm not saying to keep prices low so you can't survive, but sky rocketing them can put many newbies or people with little pocket money in a disadvantage. So maybe meet each other halfway or something like that.

It's also pretty hard to make a living off art when you're starting out, but the grocery stores aren't going to decide to meet you halfway because of it. At least, not in most countries!

As I said, I see nothing wrong with hobby artists offering to work super-cheaply on hobby projects because they want to and it's fun for them. I don't think a teenager offering $5 sketches is an evil scab undercutting the professionals. They're not playing the same game. They're not competition.

But there is something wrong with expecting artists who are not hobbyists to treat you as a charity case so that you can profit at their expense. They might, if you're really lucky and they really like you and your project. That's a rare case, NOT something that should be expected of people.

If you can't afford to hire a particular artist, make a smaller game. Save up. Settle for lesser art. Do things yourself. License pre-gen art. Make weird stylistic choices that drastically limit your art needs. You have options that don't rely on begging one specific artist to lower their prices.

(Sorry if this sounds too confrontational, I'm using 'you' a lot when I don't mean you personally, I mean people in general.)

[Enigma]

The only thing I can think of for this topic is that people are free to set their own prices and that'll determine their clients. I don't feel that underselling really "cheapens the craft" itself though. For one thing even if the cheaper artist didn't exist there's no guarantee they'd go for a more expensive artist, they may lower their standards, or simply choose not to create at all or use a different medium for example.

On another note, underselling in something as subjective as art is a bit strange because art is something of fluid and interpretive value rather than absolute value. A hammer is a hammer, an anime picture is not a comic book drawing, so to speak. The value of the art from the eyes of the artist and the client will likely be different as well. That's not to say that the client gets to be a king who expects you to take whatever scraps thrown at you, but that both the artist and client should find partners who place similar value on the work.

Some people will have less value for their art than you do and from your perspective their underselling but from their own their being fair, there's no reason to shame them on that (not saying it was your intention but "cheapens the craft" can be taken that way). At the same time no one should be pressured to cheapen their art in their own eyes and work for less than they consider fair. If they happen to notice no one is buying they can adjust their price, and the reverse is also true when there is a surplus of clients.

I think that's all I have on this topic.

[Rozume]

You are running the assumption that art as a market is the same as Human Resources, where labor laws apply. It's not. There is no minimum wage, and equal opportunity does not necessarily mean equal results. That's just the way it is.

You are also running the assumption that cheap artists will take jobs away from more expensive artists. It will not. Just because there are people who can draw like Shaun Healy or Tetsuya Nomura, and do so for cheap, does not mean that people will stop hiring these expensive artists.

Right, when did I say that? When did I ever say that cheap artists will take jobs away? I said that I absolutely hate it when very talented people undercharge themselves and here's why:

Like I said before, art is not cheap to make. GOOD art is especially. It takes years of training, practice, and honing the craft to be skilled at it. For some it takes longer, for others shorter. And sure, there are some prodigies out there but they are far and few in between.

Furthermore, it is the public perception that artists, writers, musicians, etc. are not worth paying for. Unless you are a superstar or dead, of course. Why do you think so many people advise others to not be artists? Because it doesn't make money. I had tons of people flat out tell me that I won't make any money from art.

People just don't respect artists. Therefore, when I see someone very good charge very little their craft for cheap I feel it undermines their craft as a whole. You are telling people that all those years you spent working on your craft is not worth decent pay. You are contributing to the idea that art isn't worth much, and should be cheap. You may not be directly and consciously be saying this, but that is the statement you give out to the public.

However, there is a big, big, BIG difference between a hobbyist selling art and a professional selling art and that should be taken into consideration. Unfortunately, most people can't tell between a hobbyist and a professional (unless the quality of art is obvious).

As for passion... the idea of artists doing art out of the love for the craft and passion is a rather novel idea. If you look at history, most great artists were commissioned by someone else (perhaps the church, or wealthy individuals). Sure, the great artists had tons of passion but passion alone didn't pay for their food.

This is a hot topic for artists in general so there are tons of opinions and nuances on the subject. However, if you listen to seasoned professionals such as Noah Bradley, you'll find that the common consensus among them is "No, don't undercharge yourself."

[Kinjo]

Furthermore, it is the public perception that artists, writers, musicians, etc. are not worth paying for. Unless you are a superstar or dead, of course. Why do you think so many people advise others to not be artists? Because it doesn't make money. I had tons of people flat out tell me that I won't make any money from art.

People just don't respect artists. Therefore, when I see someone very good charge very little their craft for cheap I feel it undermines their craft as a whole. You are telling people that all those years you spent working on your craft is not worth decent pay. You are contributing to the idea that art isn't worth much, and should be cheap. You may not be directly and consciously be saying this, but that is the statement you give out to the public.

The thing is, that is the reality of things -- you aren't going to make much money from art. Art has never been a very profitable field throughout history. I go to an engineering school and there's always this running joke about how artists are paying thousands of dollars for degrees that won't get them good enough jobs to pay it all back. Trying to make a living as a freelance artist (i.e. spending time drawing commissions instead of getting a well-paying job) is going to be really difficult. Some choose to take that path, but keep in mind, it's going to be very difficult.

That is where the passion comes in. Really, I think you should be drawing because you love drawing, not to earn money. And I think the same thing of any career choice -- do it because you love it. Life is about being happy, so why do something that you're not happy doing? I mean, you can choose to earn money from taking art commissions, as it's a perfectly valid thing to do -- you want to be compensated for your work -- but it's probably not a good idea to go into it thinking you can actually get as much money as a software developer for a technology company might.

I don't know much about professionals in the art world, so I may be speaking out of place, but this is a risk you have to acknowledge if you choose to make a career out of art.

[Aqacia]

I don't think that anybody is expecting any kind of price range then it comes to ordering art, yes people will have their budget and preferred prices however every artists prices are different and i do not feel like a few artists who choose to put their work down for less change anything. There will always be a range of prices people set for their art depending on the style, time or other personal factors that might be as simple as low self esteem.

If a person chooses to have low prices with their art that is their choice and their art not any less valid and the artist is not any less reliable then they are depending on that price. A reliable person will still be a reliable person no matter what the price of their work is and their work is just as decent and worth paying attention to as any other artists of their skill level.