Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoughts?

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Gambit74
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Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoughts?

#1 Post by Gambit74 »

I know this is a pretty long read, but please bear with me here. :)

So I've been writing my story off and on for almost 2 years now, pondering day and night on how I could write a happy or bittersweet ending for a multiple story route plot, since I want to emphasize the importance of the player's role in the overall story, such as how their absence from the other story routes affect the current story path they're on because they aren't there to trigger certain events or prevent these other things from happening. While I was in the shower the other day, I was suddenly hit with this epiphany.

The idea I came up with is allowing the player to choose between four different people, each with their own point of view on their respective story path. The player will start the game off with the lead protagonist, and after completing the prologue they will be able to play the other three characters. Though the player can finish the game with any character without playing the others, the twist here is that in order for the player to get the best ending, they must switch between each of the four characters throughout the story in order to solve the whole mystery of the game's overall plot.

Here's a rough example of what I had in mind: Character A comes across a situation in which he needs a certain item to save an important NPC. That item can only be gotten from Character B/C or D because he doesn't know where to get it, or he couldn't get it since he had to be at a different place at the time the item became available. If you haven't played Character B/C or D far enough to get that item and pass it along to Character A, Character A will not be able to save the NPC. Because Character A couldn't save that important NPC, he won't be able to get the information he'll need to make a certain decision later. This will cause certain events to happen or not to happen, as well as affecting the available choices during affected plot points for all the characters later. This in turn will also prevent other important items or information from becoming available. In some cases this might even lead to a dead end for one of the characters, resulting in them no longer being able to progress their story unless the player goes back and replay an earlier part of another character in order to change the outcome for the unprogressable character.

Another rough example is who interacts with what during certain story events. Like say, a sick child needs to take a specific medicine in order to improve her condition. Character A has not met with the town's doctor yet, so he needs to go find out who that doctor is in order to get it. Character B knows who the doctor is, but has no knowledge of the sick child since she is busy somewhere else. Character C is currently talking to the doctor, but this is before he knows that the sick child needs the medicine. Character D knows about the sick child's needs, and also the current location of where the doctor is based on the doctor's schedule. If Character A decides to look for the doctor, chances are he'll end up taking too long and the child will end up getting sicker. If Character B is chosen to obtain the medicine, she won't be able to get it till well after the sick child has gone into a critical state. If Character C is chosen to get the medicine, he won't know that he'll need it until after he finds out about the sick child, and by that time he will have to go search for the doctor since the doctor would have gone somewhere else. If Character D goes and get the medicine, he will be able to give it to the sick child right away. Depending on who gets the medicine, certain things will happen later, or certain events become unavailable because of the sick child's absence.

Now I realize this can be pretty frustrating for some players, but I like the idea of showing them the consequences of their actions since the game is a psychological horror, and the whole thing is intended to make the player feel guilty for screwing the characters over. I am currently trying to figure out a system that will give players just enough hints on when they need to change characters, where they messed up, or what they need to fix without making it too obvious. One idea I thought of is highlighting key points as a way to indirectly let the player know that they may want to switch to someone else if they want to change the outcome of the upcoming event. The dead ends are very few (at the moment where I am with writing the story, I currently have 1 for each character and may go as high as 2 if the story dictates it) and won't occur too far away from the decision that caused it of course. Also, the player still has the option to intentionally mess things up even after making the correct choices if they so choose. Like in the case with the second example, they can choose not to give the sick child the medicine after obtaining it.

I'm still debating on whether or not to include multiple difficulty settings. If I do decide to go with multiple difficulty settings, the easiest setting will highlight story branching points and color code decisions that lead to each of the character's bad and normal endings. Normal will only highlight story branching points, and Hard mode won't do any of them. However, the best ending will only be obtainable on Normal and Hard, and completing Hard will net you a reward. Hard mode will have different choices that lead to the same conclusion as the best ending so that players who completed Normal can't just make the same exact decisions on Hard.

Have these ideas been done in another VN before (if so, it'd be great if you guys can give me the names so I can check them out and take notes)? What are your thoughts?
Nothing to see here, folks. For now, anyway...

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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#2 Post by trooper6 »

Indigo Prophesy did something along those lines (called Fahrenheit outside of the US). It is now available on Steam.
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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#3 Post by philat »

Eh... kind of hard to say, but there are quite a few games with multiple playable characters with branching endings and such depending on what you do as each character -- like Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain. I wouldn't say those necessarily have the same mechanics you described -- choosing "the best" character for a part of the game -- but they're reasonably similar in other respects.

For the "must see other endings/options to learn things you can use in replays or to unlock other branches", the 999 series (both the original 999 and the sequel Virtue's Last Reward) have similar mechanics.

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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#4 Post by plainviewer »

Indigo Prophecy tried that idea. But as the game itself described, it was like playing a game of chess against yourself. You're the fugitive and the cop. Because of that confliction, I couldn't really decide which character I should emphasize with more. I felt more like a spectator to events, rather than a partner with the protagonist. Plots revolve around solving problems and avoiding others. If one scene I'm trying to avoid jail, and the next I'm trying imprison myself, you can understand why this made me feel a bit conflicted.

Then that same company made Heavy Rain. It was a little different in that the characters were trying to catch the same bad guy, but again, I felt more like a spectator than I should have.

I personally don't agree with this method. For the purposes of showing alternative viewpoints to the same events the protagonist is experiencing, it doesn't really work for a game. In movies and shows when you cut away to a different character, yes, but not a game. When you spend more time watching than playing, it becomes less of an actual game. And playing as all these characters that parallel each other, just makes the story more unnecessarily complicated to write.

I like the idea of multiple routes, but the way they've been traditionally done is too black and white. They always meet one of the few categories.

1) Good and Bad endings
2) Fake/Incomplete and True endings
3) Failure and Success endings. The difference between failure and bad, is in failure endings you accomplish nothing. In bad, you don't accomplish as much as you should have.
4) Heroic and Evil endings
5) Choose Team 1, Team 2, or Team 3 endings. When the game is decided by which faction you align with.


The 5th category is the least black and white in theory. But it often forces you to choose between sides, none of which you might agree with. That in and of itself doesn't respect the core concept of player choice. Even if you go solo, rather than leave everyone to their squabbles, the game still forces you to get involved, and your choice makes little difference when you compare the endings.

The two reasons people make these endings is one, they're easier. And two, all the games you've played have done it, so you're just following tradition, so to speak.

The alternative is to not give endings superficial labels. That's like taking the endings of novels, and calling them good/bad, heroic/evil, team 1/team 2. In novels, endings are subjective. In games, endings are success or failure.

The endings should be more unique, and valid to the players who went with one set of decisions over another. Not to say everything has to be perfect. You can still accomplish your main objective at the end. But how much did you lose along the way? How much did you struggle?

As for the difficulty, for your kind of game, scrap it. The development will be easier on you anyway. We play games as much for the challenge as the story. If we don't have to work at it, then we didn't earn the final ending of the game. All we did was follow the game's directions, making it feel like a chore rather than a challenge. If you're worried the game is too difficult or not clear enough, that's why you have testers to give you feedback.

Hope that put some things into perspective for you.

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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#5 Post by trooper6 »

plainviewer wrote:Indigo Prophecy tried that idea. But as the game itself described, it was like playing a game of chess against yourself. You're the fugitive and the cop. Because of that confliction, I couldn't really decide which character I should emphasize with more. I felt more like a spectator to events, rather than a partner with the protagonist. Plots revolve around solving problems and avoiding others. If one scene I'm trying to avoid jail, and the next I'm trying imprison myself, you can understand why this made me feel a bit conflicted.
In contrast, I loved playing chess against myself in Indigo Propeshy, especially since it was never so obvious how each choice would effect the other protagonist. I loved the conflicted feeling, and I lived the interplay between characters and knowledge. I didn't feel like a spectator, and I had great immersion.

On the other hand, I didn't like how it was done in 999. I didn't like having to replay the entire game over and over to get the final good ending. That broke my sense of immersion and made it feel too much like a game that I was detached from ("this time I make this choice so I can unlock one more thread so I can play the game again and make the other choice so I can get the best ending).

I would much prefer an experience like Indigo Prophesy or Game of Thrones than one like 999.

Speaking of Game of Thrones, Telltale is doing something similar with that series as well. There are a couple different POV characters and the choices they make have an effect on the other character's stories. I think this will be bigger later, but at the moment, as the eldest sister, you could try and forge a letter that would help the oldest brother (who you also play as)...but there are always trade offs.

So the idea has certainly been done.

Also, though it isn't really relevant to your original question, I agree completely with plainviewer about being against labeling endings Good/Bad/True/False. All endings should be interesting and the result of my choices and then let me as a player decide what I think about them.
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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#6 Post by Gambit74 »

Thanks a lot for your input guys, and yeah, I'll scrap the whole bad, normal, good etc ending thing.

The way I have planned things is that each ending is canon (even the dead ends); they just split off into their own parallel universe/timeline to create alternate futures in case I ever want to write a sequel or a short story based on them (I had a habit of doing this for other short stories I wrote as class assignments in the past).

Also, while doing some poking around, I managed to find this Japanese-only Visual Novel, which seems to share a similar concept to what I had in mind. Not exactly sure how it compares to Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain though since I've never played those two games either.
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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#7 Post by philat »

trooper6 wrote:On the other hand, I didn't like how it was done in 999. I didn't like having to replay the entire game over and over to get the final good ending. That broke my sense of immersion and made it feel too much like a game that I was detached from ("this time I make this choice so I can unlock one more thread so I can play the game again and make the other choice so I can get the best ending).
Won't comment on Indigo Prophecy, but I would say what broke 999 wasn't the "must see all other endings" per se, but more the fact that you had to play the ENTIRE game over and over and couldn't skip anything. They fixed that in VLR with the flow chart, and they have a pretty decent in-game explanation for the mechanism, so it's not too bad. I actually did a completion run of VLR, but after
getting axed by Clover 3 times
in 999, I said f*** it. Googled the game script for the "true ending" and ended up just reading it on my computer. ;)

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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#8 Post by trooper6 »

philat wrote: Won't comment on Indigo Prophecy, but I would say what broke 999 wasn't the "must see all other endings" per se, but more the fact that you had to play the ENTIRE game over and over and couldn't skip anything. They fixed that in VLR with the flow chart, and they have a pretty decent in-game explanation for the mechanism, so it's not too bad. I actually did a completion run of VLR, but after
getting axed by Clover 3 times
in 999, I said f*** it. Googled the game script for the "true ending" and ended up just reading it on my computer. ;)
Yes. For me it was both of these things.
1) Having to play the entire thing over and over
2) There was no in game justification for it. It just happens that in this play through
I get axed by Clover
. I didn't do anything to bring it on...just this is what has to happen until I can build up enough minute data to get a different ending. I tend to like my game play things to be based on in game considerations. So, if they game had an alternate reality, groundhog day thing...I could see that as being immersive. But it didn't.
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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#9 Post by burnt_offering »

Look up, and probably read I/O. It's something that takes an absurd amount of effort and co-ordination, but it's rewarding. Also the way they handle it allows for bad ends to crop up as canon even though there's a true end.
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Re: Can't recall any VNs doing this, but what are your thoug

#10 Post by Katy133 »

I would highly recommend looking at the children's book, "Black and White" by David Macaulay.

Here is a summary I pulled from Curriculum Connections:

SUMMARY
What appear to be four separate stories, one installment of each appearing on each spread of the book, turn out to intermingle and, in time, become one story. Always Macaulay is playing with our perceptions and making allusions and illusions. A robber hides out in a herd of cattle who, in turn, disrupt the passage of a train. At the train station, passengers at first are absorbed in the newspapers they are reading, but as the wait lengthens, they start playing with the newspapers and with each other. A boy, a passenger on the train, witnesses some of the events, but not all of them. Parents, previously staid and distant, have apparently changed, at least temporarily, because of their time spent waiting for the train that day. The book can be frustratingly confusing or, in the proper hands and minds, a challenge and a source of fascination.


Basically, the book shows several stories, in parallel, that look and seem completely separate. However, after reading all of them, you notice overlaps (there is a cow shown in all of the stories, with varying levels of importance), and illustrations of cause and effect (the actions of one protagonist in one story lead to a domino effect that affects the protagonist in another story, etc.), as well as how something seemingly unimportant can have a huge impact (background object/characters in the background of one story, not even mentioned within the text, are the focal point in another story). Additionally, each story is in a different art style, to change the tone/perspective. It's quite fascinating to study.

Here's what one page (showing the title of four of the stories) looks like.
ImageImage

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