Personality System

[Nafai]

Hey guys!

So, I'm reworking the Elect, and I've decided that I want to allow a certain degree of customization when it comes to the protagonist's personality. This is in-line with our discussions here where the consensus seemed to be, and I wholeheartedly agree, that empty-vessel, cardboard heroes are not what we want to play as in VNs. So, vaguely inspired by Mass Effect, I'm thinking of having three possible personality 'types' for Jin, which will affect menu choices and the availability/outcome of certain events.

My question is, how should this personality be chosen? I'm leaning towards using an early menu decision to 'set' the personality one way or another, for the entirety of the game. That's option 1. Option 2 is a bit closer to the Mass Effect system, where choices you make would make you stronger in one or another personality, which would open choices/paths depending on your 'points' in each personality trait. Option 3 is the same as option1, but when certain key events occur, you are given a menu choice where, depending on your answer, your personality setting may shift.

As I said, I'm using option 1 right now, but before I get too far ahead, I wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts on the matter

[PyTom]

Personally, I think the best choice is to just give the POV character a personality you choose, rather than trying to make it customizable. I mean, if you let the player choose, you'll have to riddle your code with if statements, trying to match the user's choices. My gut feeling is that will hurt the storytelling, while make it difficult to test all choices.

Another issue is that the very start of the game is one of the worst places to put a choice. The player knows little of the world, POV character, or heroines... so he's really just clicking randomly.

[monele]

Do you want the personality to influence the game or just be flavor? I haven't played Mass Effect... does your "past" influence how the character acts?... or does he act based on the dialogue choices you pick?

In any case, I still think doing something like BG or NWN or Planescape is... a lot of work, yes... but also the easiest : let the player choose what to say between various tones for unimportant sentences... and give meaningful, game-changing choices from time to time. Flavor + game influence, yay .

[papillon]

The thing about Planescape is that it recognised intent as well as words.

1. I promise [Truth]
2. I promise [Lie]

Same line, very different personality implied. Although in a VN, you don't have to give the exact line of dialog, you can just describe the action to be taken and then give the dialog later.

But if you're going to give lots of options you have to remember that 'I was lying to lure them into a false sense of security!' is a perfectly reasonable strategy...

[monele]

When it comes to truth/lie, I really like having intents coupled with answers. Technically, wether you lie or not, you could always accomplish what you've promised. But I suppose Planescape had some characters that detected lies? (and heck, some real people could guess if you're lying, unless you're good about hiding it).

I also like the idea of hmm... "tones". I think it's how Mass Effect works : "accept, refuse", and depending on your choice, you get a whole dialogue which might contain a lot of subtleties or sarcasm. For example, picking "refuse" could still begin with "Sure, I accept"... "really?!" "No!". Which is impossible if you just provide "Sure I accept" and "I refuse" as choices.
(but is possible with "I accept", "I accept [sarcasm]" and "I refuse")

[Nafai]

Thanks for the comments guys:

Personally, I think the best choice is to just give the POV character a personality you choose, rather than trying to make it customizable. I mean, if you let the player choose, you'll have to riddle your code with if statements, trying to match the user's choices. My gut feeling is that will hurt the storytelling, while make it difficult to test all choices.

True it would be easier just to give him a personality from the get-go, but I think there could be certain advantages to allowing the user to determine, at a certain level, what kind of person they will be playing as. First I think it helps a player to have a sense of 'ownership' of the character, to better feel like he IS the character in some way - I'd allow name customization as well if it didn't make it difficult for Jessica to bop around calling him "Jiiiiiin-pooo" (I can't seem to think of a way to allow for all the different variants of that for some reason ). It also allows players to play a role they are comfortable/sympathize with... Some might find it amusing to play the joker type, while others might prefer to be all serious. Second, I think that the personality of the character should affect how the girls, at least at the beginning, would see him, and make it more or less difficult to attain their affections. A serious guy wouldn't appeal very much to Jessica, and a joker wouldn't float Cynthia's boat... you can still go for them no matter your type, but it does make for a different dynamic. Which brings me to point three, which would be added replayability.

But yeah, I'm ending up with a lot of if statements. ^^;

Another issue is that the very start of the game is one of the worst places to put a choice. The player knows little of the world, POV character, or heroines... so he's really just clicking randomly.

Well, he's not really supposed to make that decision based on that context, but more on what type of character he'd like to be, which preferably might be someone who is very much like the player, to add to the immersion. Sort of a very simplified version of those tarot card questions which started out the old Ultima games?

Do you want the personality to influence the game or just be flavor? I haven't played Mass Effect... does your "past" influence how the character acts?... or does he act based on the dialogue choices you pick?

Well, more flavor and some minor influence - actions speak louder than words or personality. The personality would come into play largely in terms of dialogue option availability (with corresponding flavor text), and occasionally the availability of certain actions (not all characters get to go around sneaking peeks at the ladies for one) but nothing that would directly branch off the story - though they will affect relationships of course. (Peeking at certain ladies could mean game over )

[As to ME, you get to pick a background story that is referenced throughout the game, and results in certain quests, but your personality is determined by actions you take, and these open additional dialogue options rather than changing the outcomes of already available options]

The thing about Planescape is that it recognised intent as well as words.

*nods* I'll try to have some of this, but as expressions of personality more than as determinants. The joker personality gets to do sarcastic wisecracks, while the angry personality-type gets the option to punch the offender in the gut.

[monele]

The joker personality gets to do sarcastic wisecracks, while the angry personality-type gets the option to punch the offender in the gut.

So... does this mean your plan is to let the player pick from archetypes right from the beginning and then get choices based on that (which means being a wise ass prevents you from ever picking serious choices)... or will there be multi-archetype choices throughout the game àla Planescape?
While it's less easy to analyze, I like the fact you can be a wise ass from time to time but serious most of the time in Planescape... or the other way around. Or only serious, or only a wise ass... It's your choice and it's a lot more granular.
I understand, though, that some choices might be reserved to characters with a talent (people with insight usually get additional choices in NWN adventures).
My argument is that someone could be a funny guy who knows when to be serious. And someone else could be a funny guy who doesn't know when to stop. Both types are mainly funny guys, but each could have a very different impact on the girls.

Actually, could you give made-up examples of how it would go?

[Nafai]

* Picking Archtypes: Not in an overt way - the game as it now stands opens with Jin about to undergo his admissions interview. How you respond to the first question (or first few questions, I'm still thinking on that) will give Jin a base personality which will influence many of the choices and flavor text for the rest of the game (or until certain events occur which would justify a shift in his base personality).

* Archtype Choices: Likening it to picking a 'talent' isn't far off the mark. What'll happen is that, in certain menus, the character will be given more options (or will actually HAVE a choice where otherwise it would be a linear event) if he has this or that personality trait. While being of a 'serious' personality doesn't mean you're a stick in the mud, you probably won't get the chance to crack-wise at almost every opportunity. But even if you have the 'joker' personality, you'll usually have the option as to whether or not to exercise your humor - there will always be at least one personality neutral option.

I decided against having serious and angry and humorous responses available to the player all the time, simply because in general, people aren't like that: serious people are generally serious and pranksters are generally pranksters. Of course given the contexts that typical behavior may change, and I hope to allow some flexibility, but as I can't capture fully the richness and complexities of every possible personality, I thought I'd stick to a choice of personalities, coupled with a realistic adherence thereto.

* Example: Well, here's a bit of the script from the interview, where your personality has already been set:

menu:

"Yes, I do.":

"Daytona:" "Hmph. Just like the youth of today, you think you know everything.{p} Well, I will assume you will not be averse to bearing with a more detailed explanation from someone with much more lerning and experience on the matter."

"Hoover:" "In other words, you don't really have a choice mon."

jump interview_talent

"No I don't.":

"Daytona:" "Hmph. Your ignorance of the basic knowledge of neo-human biology is a defect which we shall have to correct."

"Hoover:" "But teacher! Shouldn't we learn to accept each other for who we are~?"

"Daytona:" "Quiet boy."

jump interview_talent

"I'm not stupid." if personality == "angry":

"Daytona visibly bristles."

"Daytona:" "That has yet to be determined, but you{i}are{/i} impertinent - and that is a far worse flaw. Stupidity can be corrected."

"Hoover:" "You mean impertinence is forever?"

"Daytona:" "No...{w=1} It just requires a bigger stick."

"She leans forward and I hear the chair creak and strain under her weight. Somehow my throat feels... dry."

"Daytona:" "Listen well and respectfully boy. You aren't in AI yet."

jump interview_talent

"You mean the fact I can wiggle my ears?" if personality == "joker":

"Hoover:" "Really! Show me show me!"

"*Slap!*"

"Daytona's meaty palm sends the table shaking."

"Daytona:" "I do not know how you were taught in your prior institutions boy, but here we take knowledge - and authority - very seriously."

jump interview_talent

Here we see that there are two neutral options (A simple yes or no) available regardless of personality type. However a person with a 'joker' personality has the option of being impertinent (Much to the assistant principals irritation) while one with the 'angry' personality has the option to cop an attitude... and perhaps make a bad impression.

Neither the joker nor the angry type is forced to act true to their base personality, but they have personality-specific options opened for them.

[monele]

An example was all I needed, yay ^_^. I see how it runs now and I think I like it . The only thing I wonder is : will personality types yield (more) positive results compared to neutral answers? Kind of a game of "do I use my talent/personality here?"
For example, being angry could be a problem if you keep having an attitude... but it could help against a weak bad guy, to force them to reveal something because you scare them (wheras neutral or joking options would yield no particular result). Or in another case, your joker personality helps you get the sympathy of a shy child, while being all yelling on her certainly wouldn't ^^;...
But since a player can have only *one* personality, there has to be multiple ways to reach the end of course ^^.

Oh and... I love this dialogue ^_^, full of personality

[Nafai]

More positive? At times yes, though it depends on the context, and what you mean by 'positive.' As of the moment I have three personality types (though the 'serious' personality is more an absence of the joker and angry traits than a unique personality) and some of these will be more attractive to certain girls than others. However, sometimes acting in a manner that antagonizes can be 'positive' in that it can reveal different aspects of the character - shouting at Jessica might not win you any rabu-rabu points, but her tirade might cause her to let slip something about her past you might not otherwise know.

But none of the personality traits will be required for the endings - the good endings at least. There will always be an alternate way ^^

And thanks! I'm glad the personalities shine through... hopefully I can do an even better job with the main characters. ^_^

[monele]

Well, I'm comparing this to something like NWN.
NWN gives you all archetypes choices and, if you have enough of some stat, bonus choices. I'm thinking of "Insight", based on wisdom or intelligence, in particular . This choice is *always* positive. You always learn something more, generally useful for the rest of your adventure.
Sometimes, there's also a choice immediately linked to an aptitude (appraise, bully, charisma) which, when selected, will test this aptitude and give a result depending on wether the diceroll + your stat was favorable or not. Picking these choices is not always positive... it's an attempt to do something with one of your stats. If you know you have good Charisma, picking that choice will probably work... otherwise, it might backfire.

In your case, there are no stats, so the result is not due to dicerolls : it's fixed.
Nevertheless, your new examples seem to confirm what I thought : sometimes choosing the Angry answer will be helpful, sometimes it will be harmful, and sometimes it will be... different (learning something about a character that doesn't push the plot forward but is still precious flavor ^.^).
If that's how it is, there will be a gaming aspect to picking choices, which is fun. But of course, and it's what you're going to do, it's important that a wrong choice doesn't kill the whole game. Maybe lower your chances some... or prevent you from seeing some flavor stuff, but that's it