What is really "Japanese"?

[mikey]

Inspired by this:

I'm looking forward to an anime adaptation of a gaijin (or at least non-Japanese) - written visual novel.

My goal in life.

Not too long ago I wondered about what's really "Japanese". Is it a game made in Japan, made by a Japanese citizen, made by someone born in Japan, made by someone who (natively) speaks Japanese, made by someone who has Japanese ethnicity, someone who is close to Japanese culture... Because you know that so many people live abroad for some time, others settle down in a different country, then you can be born in a country but your roots are in another, your ethincity can be mixed, you can live half your life here and half there,... not to mention a game producer typically has more help - artists, musicians... and they can be all of the above cases as well... and who defines the Japanese-ness? The writer, the producer, the artist? Just imagine a game produced and sponsored by an American, with Japanese artists - and then, a game produced by a Japanese person with American artists... which of these really is a Japanese game?

There are more things to consider as well - because there is manga talent all around the world, and it's not like you can be 100% sure that a particular drawing has been made by someone Japanese. Obviously, this has been touched by especially our community (it's not as big an issue as it once was, I think) since most of us are not "Japanese in Japan". But you do look at say some of the doujin (translated) works and think... well, IS there such a difference? Well, not really... especially in the fan-made sector.

It's perfectly possible for anyone here to take the free-to-use resources from Japanese sites and use them in a story and make a game "indistinguishable" from Japanese ones. That makes a lot of the things very relative - it's often just that a game uses Ren'Py that is an indication that it was developed in an English-speaking environment. But surely, there are Thai games in development and maybe someone already tried to do a Japanese-speaking game with it... so it's not really about the engine either (well, it never could have been, of course). And the writing... well, that's also not really a dead giveaway. In fact, you could easily fool me with the origin of a game - if you say it's French, I believe you - because for most of the time I can't simply say "oh, this couldn't ever have come from France".

So, back to the "gaijin" thing... I'm sure that Japan as a country (and an aggregation of islands) is definitely the centre of anime, where most of the things comes from - but good manga isn't limited to the country - much like good ice hockey isn't limited to Canada, it's just that the country really has a good infrastructure for developing young talents, much like Japan has a good environment and more support for those wanting to start drawing manga. So if you want to be artistically creative in Japan, manga is at the top of your list, much like if you want to do some sports in Canada, you will inevitably consider ice hockey due to its support and popularity. But it never means that other countries and places are inferior, or that exceptional talent (for ice hockey, or for manga) can't come from Argentina.

And as for what's typically Japanese, well, that's hard to define - I mean if you try to think and define your own nationality, what's typical for them, it's extremely difficult, and I can't just say it's this or that - and when you try to define what's typical for the ART of your country... ugh that's even harder... and add to that the factor on culture mixing, internet and connectivity... and even though surely there are things that can be considered typically "Japanese", it's often just the stereotypes - much like you'd think of something typically Scandinavian and conclude that it's boxy design.

So, to get back to the quote - what would be the significance of such anime? Saying hey a gaijin has "made it"? Well, sure... but... should that be a goal? Isn't the goal of the Argentinian ice hockey player more to play hockey, than to do it for the country? I'm sure he will also want his countrymen to see that ice hockey is interesting, but this is probably more the task for the ministry of sports... It has to be fulfilling for the individual, otherwise it has no sense. When he scores a goal for my club, I admire him primarily for his skill, not because he is "different".

And I'd also say a "foreign" element brings a lot of freshness and color into any mixture. We from time to time go to an Asian restaurant here in the middle of Europe. Even though most of the people are Japanese, they speak reasonably well German, and their restaurant has a Japanese feel, but it also doesn't push it too much - you have nice plates instead of the typical bowls, you can have knife and fork if you want - on the other hand, you have this Japanese presentation of the whole food, even though the ingredients and also a bit of the meny are actually European.

Some may say it's impure and that you should sit in a specific way and ceremonially drink tea and use chopsticks... but to be honest this mixture, even though I'm sure it will inevitably be despised by an all-Japanese restaurant critic, is very befitting the environment where it is - this is in Europe and why should it not be more accessible, more "European"? And you can also see the opposite - Japanese culture isn't isolated, there are also elements of other cultures that are popular in there. They use English (and German) a lot, for example, in a very Japanese sort of way - which I think is great, since I'm sure this is what we do when we use Japanese names or terms.

It's getting dark so, I'll just finish with saying that for me, the definition of what's Japanese is becoming increasingly fuzzy - and often it's just the circumstances, the very visible signs (like Japanese font or a website, or Japanese names) that indicates to me that something originated from Japan - and not so much the actual content. This means that this perception of that a work is Japanese and thus creates this certain exotic atmosphere, is to a considerable extent... an illusion.

[Hyperguy]

Because I think you're thinking too much into this, I'm just going to say that what's Japanese is what's recognized as Japanese.

It could be a katana made in Texas, but if people recognize it as Japanese then without the wiser to them it's understood as such.

[Counter Arts]

You see... the Japanese have this thing called "plus alpha" that they put into everything they do. It's that special ingredient that they put into all their work and products.

I'm not too sure that all the Japanese know what it is. Maybe it's an old term that was used.

My best guess is that it relates to the reason why someone who would work well in the corporate world in Japan may not do so well here.

The "plus alpha" stuff is hard to make work well with western-style business practices. I suppose western businesses typically consider it not a good way to do business.

So that's my theory.

[mikey]

I'm just going to say that what's Japanese is what's recognized as Japanese.

My question was indeed how do you recognize / define something as Japanese... more specifically that if you don't think about it, you're fine - but if you do start to think about it, it tends to disintegrate a lot of the charm you thought it had.

You see... the Japanese have this thing called "plus alpha" that they put into everything they do. It's that special ingredient that they put into all their work and products.

But is this a good enough explanation? It's like something is done the "American way"... isn't it more or less just a stereotype, or an artificial thing? I mean the French can't be the only true romantic nation... and the Germans aren't the only people capable of being pedantic.

I realize this is not about logic, but about a certain "feel". But my point was that this feel is based to a worrying extent on stereotypes.

[Hyperguy]

I'm just going to say that what's Japanese is what's recognized as Japanese.

My question was indeed how do you recognize / define something as Japanese...

By association.

more specifically that if you don't think about it, you're fine - but if you do start to think about it, it tends to disintegrate a lot of the charm you thought it had.

Whether it disintegrates the charm or not is opinion based. Even imitations have their own charm, like how with the right amount of enthusiasm a Spaderman action figure is just as fun to play with as an authentic Spiderman one.

A purist would think that something has less charm because they value purity and are naturally discriminating, but when practicality is a factor, a thing's utility is valued more than its origin or association. Like when you find out your ginzu knives were really made in Mexico, but you don't throw them out immediately because at the end of the day they're still knives that can file down a hammer and still be sharp enough to cut a tomato.

[Jake]

You see... the Japanese have this thing called "plus alpha" that they put into everything they do. It's that special ingredient that they put into all their work and products.

But is this a good enough explanation?

I would go further, and suggest that it's a ridiculously bad explanation. It's essentially saying "Japanese stuff is just better because it's Japanese and Japanese people are magic".

So. Crazy theory time.

There is often a certain air lent to a translated title thanks to the slightly-odd phrasing of sentences which marks it as obviously Japanese in origin, and I'm firmly of the opinion that in a lot of contexts, fans get used to this and associate it with the better titles to come out of that country - because those are the ones they played a lot - and western equivalents don't have that odd phrasing, and it's a cue to look down on them. I wonder if a lot of the hate English-language dubs get is because of this, because these days the acting is actually usually pretty good on the whole... but the dialogue has all been fiddled around all over the place so it actually sounds like real people talking in English, instead of this odd off-kilter bastardisation of normal usage which a straight translation will have.

I was thinking about this quite recently myself, actually - I'd come across a really nice 2d-shooter, and was kind of surprised briefly that it was of Western origin. But the more I thought about it, the more I couldn't come up with any reason to be surprised; it was just a good game in a genre that happens to have more professional Japanese publications than professional western. But this was a fan game, and there are plenty of fan-made 2d-shooters from the west.


Now, the Japanese do produce more 2d-shooters professionally than the west does. I can't actually think of more than one western-developed 2d-shooter that made it to a home console in the last few years, for instance, but I can think of several Japanese examples. But that doesn't make them necessarily better, just more prolific, presumably due to differing markets. I gather by comparison that they don't buy a lot of Gears of War over there, so this leads back to the question which kills the 'plus alpha' argument for me - if a Japanese team made a Gears clone, would it magically be better than Gears because of this? Intuitively the answer is that it's pretty unlikely, because they don't have the decade or more of experience that Epic have in making testosterone-fulled 3D shooting games.




...also EX plus Alpha was easily the worst Streetfighter game I've played more than once.

[rocket]

So, to get back to the quote - what would be the significance of such anime? Saying hey a gaijin has "made it"? Well, sure... but... should that be a goal?

Actually, I was thinking of it would mean that "Anime has made it."

By which I mean anime (the whole culture and visual arts movement that it encompasses including manga, VNs, etc.) has become universal enough to be considered a world wide pop-cultural movement. Much like French Cuisine with Julia Child, Rock and Roll with the Rolling Stones, Rap with Eminem, all transcend their particular cultural gestational sources and become a larger richer places for taking an influx of diverse talents.

I don't care if my anime was story-boarded in San Francisco or animated in Thailand. What matters is the fan community response!

[rocket]

There is often a certain air lent to a translated title thanks to the slightly-odd phrasing of sentences which marks it as obviously Japanese in origin, and I'm firmly of the opinion that in a lot of contexts, fans get used to this and associate it with the better titles to come out of that country - because those are the ones they played a lot - and western equivalents don't have that odd phrasing, and it's a cue to look down on them. I wonder if a lot of the hate English-language dubs get is because of this, because these days the acting is actually usually pretty good on the whole... but the dialogue has all been fiddled around all over the place so it actually sounds like real people talking in English, instead of this odd off-kilter bastardisation of normal usage which a straight translation will have.

AMEN!

I think you are exactly right!

In fact for Starlight I often consciously choose odd phrasing because it sounded more authentically like an awkwardly subbed anime or manga.

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...

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If we're not careful though, a discussion of what makes modern anime culture unique is easily going to slip into a discussion about moé! (^_^);;

[Vatina]

Well that's a tough question that goes for many things these days :/ Maybe by quantity? As in "there were many nationalities in production, but it was made in Japan, and they were mostly japanese"?

Although I know that doesn't really work every time either.

That reminds me of when the Asterix and the Vikings animation got in the works, I was all excited because I heard it was "a danish movie". In the end there were two or so danish directors, and everyone else was from all over the world Meh.

The truth is, I don't know....
Maybe who it was originally made for?

(Sorry, I almost made a mess of posts by accident there....)

[mikey]

There is often a certain air lent to a translated title thanks to the slightly-odd phrasing of sentences which marks it as obviously Japanese in origin, and I'm firmly of the opinion that in a lot of contexts, fans get used to this and associate it with the better titles to come out of that country

...if a Japanese team made a Gears clone, would it magically be better than Gears because of this? Intuitively the answer is that it's pretty unlikely,...

These are really good viewpoints (that didn't occur to me when I was thinking about this), indeed one instinctively puts the "magic aura" on the good things, not really on the ones that aren't so great.

It could be a katana made in Texas, but if people recognize it as Japanese then without the wiser to them it's understood as such.

Actually, this made me think (also, the Ginsu knife made in Mexico) - if you were presented with a perfectly crafted Katana, you'd admire it and (I'm absolutely sure of this) you would definitely associate it with something Japanese. Smell the sakura, the breeze from Mount Fuji and feel the heritage of the samurai...
- Yeah, but this one was made by Billy Smith who is chewing his American bubble gum while driving his Mustang
I'm quite sure that there IS this form of discrimination, and I'm sure people would want a katana made in Japan, a "proper" Katana, rather than Billy's. Otherwise, when Japanese knives and similar are being marketed, they wouldn't have to have hiragana-style font and a samurai on the cover, they wouldn't need it - but they do, for the aura that exists in the mind. And they generate that by stereotypes.

That reminds me of when the Asterix and the Vikings animation got in the works, I was all excited because I heard it was "a danish movie". In the end there were two or so danish directors, and everyone else was from all over the world Meh.

I have my dishes from IKEA, which is all nice should give you the Scandinavian feel, but actually they are being made in Romania. It says "Design and quality by IKEA of Sweden", but to be honest, just like the katana, many people will inevitably ask - shouldn't it then also be made in Sweden?

But the other question is, should the Danish have a monopoly on Vikings? Or the Japanese on Katanas? Clearly, that can't be right...

[Jake]

I have my dishes from IKEA, which is all nice should give you the Scandinavian feel, but actually they are being made in Romania. It says "Design and quality by IKEA of Sweden", but to be honest, just like the katana, many people will inevitably ask - shouldn't it then also be made in Sweden?

Similarly, but a little more curiously, every bit of Apple hardware comes proudly branded "designed by Apple in California"; neglecting to mention the "and made by people in Shanghai". The last bit of that kind of confuses me, though - I'd have thought that the Apple name had enough cachet on its own without having to mention it was in California? Sure, California's where the infamous Silicon Valley is, but that's not what most people think of when they hear of the state, and... Apple isn't even in Silicon Valley anyway, they're in Cupertino.

But the other question is, should the Danish have a monopoly on Vikings?

I have Norwegian friends who would say 'no'...

[bloodywyvern]

I'd rather not get in to the deep intricacies of what defines something as any particular culture, there are too many variables to consider. In the end though it depends on the person, doesn't it? Each person can have their own individual opinion as to what constitutes a "Japanese" game, or anything really. It would be impossible to collectively create a single base line for what makes something "Japanese".

As for me, I consider the art to be the real decisive factor in deciding the origin of anything, while the line has grown exceptionally thin over the years you have to look back to the origin of the style in general. You have to admit anime has a real distinct style to it, so to me as long as that style is retained then I'll consider it "Japanese". Much like the mentioned Katana would be so, because the traditional origins of the work was from Japan. It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the people creating it, or the language it is in. Style used in every game, VN, etc. have been created somewhere before...or at least part of them (since innovations can't be counted, only the foundations it's working on). That's how I'd judge it.

[PyTom]

But the other question is, should the Danish have a monopoly on Vikings?

Well, Minnesota seems to have their fair share.

Seriously, I've seen too many lousy anime series to believe that there's some sort of magic factor that makes Japanese productions magically better. Rather, I believe that there are two effects at play here:

- The filter effect. Generally, the anime series we see are above average, since there are a limited number of people to translate them, and they're only going to bother bringing over series that are good, or at least passable. With local productions, however, we're seeing 100% of the product, and sturgeon's law applies. (90% of everything is crap.)

- The content effect. Another thing is that anime/manga/games are able to be serious in a way that US-based animation isn't. When US animation actually tries to be serious (the DCAU, Avatar, some of the best episodes of Futurama) it can be very good. But that's rare, and there are a large number of genres that simply haven't been touched by American animation. (Like a harem show, or a high school romance.)

It's interesting that there's beginning to be some notice taken of western VNs in Japan. Katawa Shoujo was publicized on a number of boards a few weeks ago, and Ren'Py along with it.

[Vatina]

But the other question is, should the Danish have a monopoly on Vikings?

Lol! I hardly noticed that I actually mentioned Vikings there until now... xD But yeah, of course not

[mikey]

I have Norwegian friends who would say 'no'...

^_^ Touche... actually I knew that, I just said Danish because Vatina said... ah hell, I should have added "Norwegians" in brackets.

You have to admit anime has a real distinct style to it, so to me as long as that style is retained then I'll consider it "Japanese".

I agree with your arguments, as they are really logical, this is also my point - despite this, these kinds of production will probably be referred to as "in the style of Japanese anime", rather than "Japanese", simply to note the fact it's NOT Japanese. But maybe this is all inevitable.

- The content effect. Another thing is that anime/manga/games are able to be serious in a way that US-based animation isn't. When US animation actually tries to be serious (the DCAU, Avatar, some of the best episodes of Futurama) it can be very good. But that's rare, and there are a large number of genres that simply haven't been touched by American animation. (Like a harem show, or a high school romance.)

On the other hand, I am missing sarcastic comedies that American animation does, and also (believe it or not) shows where sexuality isn't put into the foreground - like many Disney adventure films and series, the equivalent anime would have fanservice and something sexy in it - which isn't always great and over time it gets tiring.