Random outcome no matter the choice?

[Harliqueen]

Sorry for the vague thread title, wasn't really sure how to word it

I'm currently working on a large VN, and at one point the player has to make a choice about how to handle a situation. But I thought it might be kind of cool to have it so no matter the choice made the outcome will be random.

For example you have 3 choices on how to handle the situation, and each choice will lead to three distinct outcomes based on that choice, but the outcome will be random.

Does that make sense?

It wouldn't just be random for no reason, the situation is one where I want the player to feel like, even though they are making a choice, there are forces in this situation beyond their control. I was hoping the randomness of the outcome would reflect that?

So, really, my question is- How would feel about that as a player? Would it really annoy you that no matter your choice you didn't always get the best outcome, but instead a possiblity of, say, 3 varying levels (good, bad, medium)? Or would it feel like I hoped, and you would realise that no matter your choice sometimes you can't predict everything?

Your choice would still matter, as the varying outcomes would be different based on the choice you make.

[wendybirdx]

Hm, I don't know. While it would feel realistic to have, say, another character's randomized choices affect an outcome, it might be a bit annoying to never be able to reach all the endings if the computer chooses against that option.
Maybe one of the options could be to allow another character to have a choice in the matter, as well? I just feel like the possibility of never getting to all of the endings might be a turn off for some people, but it's definitely an interesting idea to play with if getting all of the endings isn't important.

I'd probably play it since it's a different idea, but that's a personal choice, really.

[trooper6]

It wouldn't just be random for no reason, the situation is one where I want the player to feel like, even though they are making a choice, there are forces in this situation beyond their control. I was hoping the randomness of the outcome would reflect that?

So, really, my question is- How would feel about that as a player? Would it really annoy you that no matter your choice you didn't always get the best outcome, but instead a possiblity of, say, 3 varying levels (good, bad, medium)? Or would it feel like I hoped, and you would realise that no matter your choice sometimes you can't predict everything?

Your choice would still matter, as the varying outcomes would be different based on the choice you make.

Two thoughts.
1) In theory I have no problem with randomness if it is done as a deliberate artistic choice. The question there is if it is done well or done poorly.
2) About your specific idea...would I realize that no matter my choice sometimes I can't predict everything? I don't know, it depends on how your do it. I mean what happens if the random choice is the thing that I wanted to happen all along? How would I know that it was a random choice? If it is something I didn't want to happen, how would I know the bad result was because of randomness rather than just a bad result? So, I suppose you'd have to really think about how you telegraph to the player that they are suffering the whims of a random fate rather than just getting a bad/good result.

[Kailoto]

Like trooper6 stated, it really depends on the execution. In general, a player expects a VN with branching paths and choices to allow for agency, and by negating their choice (and substituting it with something random), you'd be breaking that implicit promise. That doesn't mean you can't do it anyways - but you have to set it up in such a way so that it clearly serves a purpose and that purpose is conveyed to the player. Another way of thinking about it is like so: If the random choice can be substituted by a regular choice and nothing is lost, then there's no reason to pick the option that will screw over the player.

I think part of it would depend on how important the choice is, as well... even in a basic galge I wouldn't mind if it was a trivial choice, but doing something like this for a pivotal moment had better be exceedingly well justified.

I've seen games that play with determinism and lack of unlimited agency before (Bioshock Infinite comes to mind), but I can't think of a good example of a game that uses randomness as a motif. If it were built into the story itself, I think something like this could have wonderful potential.

[trooper6]

I've seen games that play with determinism and lack of unlimited agency before (Bioshock Infinite comes to mind), but I can't think of a good example of a game that uses randomness as a motif. If it were built into the story itself, I think something like this could have wonderful potential.

I agree again with Kiloton on their whole post, but I'll pull this quote to add to.
I could imagine an Alice in Wonderland sort of VN with a high level of randomness that could work well.
Also, lots of RPGs have random mechanics like random encounters or random loot drops.
So randomness can certainly be used.

But the higher degree of randomness and there more central and impactful the randomness, the more you'd really have to make sure to maintain player motivation to continue on with the game. Can be done, I think. But it should be something that is kept in mind.

Also, I personally think it would be important to have "fair" randomness. What do I mean by that?
Well...not everything in the universe is random. There are a lot of patterns in nature. Additionally, many things are not completely random--some "random" outcomes have a higher probability of occurring than other "random" outcomes.

It is like that random encounter table in D&D. Not *any* monster can be rolled up on that table. If you are in a dessert area, there is a custom tailored "dessert encounter" table. If you are in a forest area, there is a custom tailored "forest encounter" table. So...you aren't going to randomly get a polar bear encounter in a forest. Because that breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Talking to a person...if all their responses to the things I say are random...then I'm going to think there is something wrong with that person.
If I'm charging up the beaches of Normandy and I am randomly hit with shrapnel? That is totally fine...because that is a sort of randomness that makes sense in the situation. That is "fair."
Which trailer home the tornado hits? That being random? Totally believable.
Bank robbers show up and decide to take hostages? Hm....some level of randomness is believable...but I would have a harder time believing that the bank robbers would pick a huge dangerous-looking nobody over an important-looking easier to control somebody.

So...I think it is important to keep the randomness believable as well as thematic.

[Katy133]

I think in the right situation, it could work.

Like for example, if the player is asked to play Rock, Paper, Scissors against another character. Making the NPC's choice random prevents the player from cheating. Same with drawing straws/lots. Or picking a number out of a hat. Really anything that relates to "randomness" in real life, because that feels more believable.

[Harliqueen]

Thank you so much for your replies and thoughts on this! I've got time to think it over, and I will go back to my plan and see if I can't implement it in a way that works and is understandable and not frustrating, if not then I'll scrap it

It's only one choice in the game, and though it's quite a turning point in character development, it doesn't affect the endings, so it will be easy to change if needed.

Thank you again, it's really nice to be able to put a thought out there and be able to discuss it with others

[KuroOneHalf]

This idea feels very wrong to me for some reason, but I'm having trouble identifying and articulating why.

trooper6 brings up a good point in his first post, of whether the player would even realize that the outcome they got was random. What if they went through that choice point again, picked a different choice, but got the same outcome? They'd assume both choices were trivial and had no impact on the outcome of the story, and would finish playing the game not realizing that there was more to it. Is this something you intentionally want to be a possibility?

Maybe I hit the heart of the problem there. This would be just as consequenceless as trivial choices. After all, none would be distinguishable from the other in the sense of them driving the story one way or another. What you're really contemplating is a randomly branching story. You're rolling a dice every time you play as to what version of the story you get. Is that an experience you want to create? I don't quite understand what the upside would be.

Because if your point is to convey the idea that there are ulterior forces beside your character's control that will shape their destiny, then you could do it much more effectively through various plot devices, and not resort to this gimmicky mechanic that would most likely just lead to player confusion and them missing out on content.

[Kinjo]

I've thought about making a game like this before. I think it could be fun, but I don't think it should be straight-up random (unless like Katy said, it's something that would be random in real life like rock paper scissors).

It's also probably only fair if you directly mention to the player that this is how choices might work, so that they know (without having to replay the game and find out the same choice somehow led to a different outcome). I could see the game being fun if it's actually presented as a game between you and the AI. But if it's simply 100% random, that makes the choices almost meaningless.

Even in this case of it being a single choice, I think it'd be best if the player was somehow told it was random. For example, if you had to cut one of three wires in order to stop a time bomb, but the correct wire was randomized each time, that's unfair. A fair example would be if, by random chance, you were stopped from cutting the wire you chose (whether it was the right one or not). And it was made clear to the player that this was a random occurrence ("A dog randomly ran by and I tripped over it on the way to the bomb, so I fell and couldn't stop it in time").

I think that's what you were going for, so it should be fine.