Novelty progress update (VN maker)

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#106 Post by Sin »

BigFish wrote:... Alt-Enter is usually used for fullscreen toggle.
Yes I know. The editor doesn't have a fullscreen mode per se, except a mode where all windows but the main view are hidden. (Ctrl+Tab)
The stand-alone games will most likely use Alt+Enter for toggling fullscreen as expected.
BigFish wrote:The only thing I'm worried about is changing the character name on the textbox. To change the character, do I have to press tab, enter their name, and then press tab again to get to editing the text again? While this is not much of a hassle, for visual novels where the characters have long names this could be a problem. Maybe a keyboard shortcut system for character names? Like, shift+b for "Bob" or something like that.
I think that would only complicate things. What happens if you have characters named Bob, Ben and Bill?
To be honest, my description of that sequence wasn't accurate. Actually the caret always moves to the phrase-entry text box. The name will default to whatever name you previously entered or you can drop down a list of all previously entered names. In the future I will add better tools for managing cast members, where characters can have more meta information about them, such as individual text color and vocal sound banks.
BigFish wrote:And lastly, something else I'm wondering is, at some point will Novelty have built-in support for moving character mouths during text typing (like Phoenix Wright)? Obviously, advanced stuff like this probably won't be in the alpha, but one of the main thing that has driven me nuts with visual novel engines is lack of this feature. (.....also, I couldn't help but notice you used a Phoenix Wright sprite in some the screenshots :) )
You're not the first to request this feature. It's not in yet but it's coming. I'm a PW fan so that feature was obvious to me. That and the blip-blip-blip.

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#107 Post by Guest »

Jake wrote:
Nuke_Bloodaxe wrote: Do not lose perspective that once a coder, always a coder, your experience colours your outlook on many matters
Except... I'm not talking about the perspective of a coder, I'm talking about the perspective of a writer. I've been writing prose longer than I've been writing code. ;-)
*Nukes head momentarily explodes at the paradox* *chuckles* Sorry, this sentence is great in many ways, but do get your point (The wording indicates your perspective, but then your reply talks about the perspective from a third party point of view, negating the original intent of the quoted sentence; which was based on talking about your viewpoint, not a third party. Just clearing that up.)

Anyway, that aside, I too have written for longer than I have written code.
Jake wrote: (And please, one of the things I think is best about this whole project is the accessibility for non-coders. I'm well aware that there's a large proportion of the population who are put off of things like Ren'Py because it looks too much like programming; if you look back over my posting history, I've been waving that banner pretty much since I joined this forum. ;P)
Ahh, my apologies, I only read this particular thread on this forum at the moment, I'll do a little catchup.
Jake wrote:
Nuke_Bloodaxe wrote: As for breaking habits, that is good, it requires people to think about what they are writing.
Huh. I'm not sure you're getting the point.

If you were talking about writing habits, I'd kind of agree. It's good to not fall into a rut and only write one particular kind of prose from one particular perspective; mixing it up and trying something new every now and again makes you think more about which bits of structure are there for necessity and which bits are there out of habit, which is fine.

But we're not talking about writing habits, really, we're talking about typing habits. Consider this analogy: programming languages X and Y and Z require that you put a semicolon on the end of each statement and enclose blocks in curly braces and type variables before you use them. Language A comes along and requires you enclose blocks in curly braces and type variables before you use them but requires not a semicolon on the end of each statement, but a special unicode end-of-statement symbol which requires holding alt and typing a four-digit code to enter. Maybe A has some really nice libraries available, or some great language sugars or something which make it an attractive option. It's hard for X, Y and Z programmers to use A, because they keep habitually typing semicolons. (For bonus points, maybe the IDE implements its own clipboard which doesn't support unicode...)

It's not the greatest analogy, of course, but hopefully a programmer should realise how thoroughly annoying it would be to have to use some other complicated-to-type symbol instead of a simple and habitual semicolon. Typing free text isn't a trait of scripting languages, it's a trait of prose, it's just convenient that scripting languages allow people to type in a very similar manner to prose typing.
Actually, I have been there with that analogy... you really don't want to know any more... it was seriously horrible.
However, its also a tad extreme, and I really don't think the difference is quite all that bad here; plus I was actually talking about writing habits here, being affected by the due consideration being induced from the difference in typing ( I can see how the interpretation of my sentence can be a bit off here, my fault ).
Jake wrote:
Nuke_Bloodaxe wrote: Plus with all the dialogue being modular chunks, this is really no different from paragraph writing. But if it is a problem, copy and paste from whatever editor you like.
This kind of comment makes me wonder if you've ever done any serious writing. I mean, writing things longer than one or two thousand words. Pasting in a short bit of script in front of each line of dialogue would be a lot less hassle than pasting the entire ten-thousand-word script in a line at a time, switching between two applications for each line.

And this is the thing that I was most worried about when I first read how dialogue was being entered in Novelty - that the people who were designing/testing this interface didn't seem to have actually tried to write anything of any length in it. Usability of interface concerns change quite drastically depending on how frequently the user is expected to be performing particular tasks. ;-)
*chuckles* I do like the way you write, I suspect we merely have very different approaches to writing material for a novel.
I am currently working towards 20000 to 30000 words in the novel, but already have more than that in terms of background material. *looks more carefully at the plan* You know *scratches chin in thought*, I suspect I'm being too conservative, might add a nought later as a joke to distress the team.

My intention is to place each line into Novelty, and test it in position to see if it works with the overall feel of the graphics, the music, audio effects, animated cut scenes, and spoken nature of the work. Naturally I'll do this testing in chunks of 10 or so dialogue screens, or until a special point, whichever comes first. If something does not convey the intent of the work, I'll alter the dialogue and other text until it does. The idea of doing a copy and paste operation in this context does not phase me in the slightest, as its something I've done before with a translation project I worked on ( now, the first chapter, which is all I did, came to *checks translation document* 157000+ words... according to word at least, and I suspect its lying ).

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#108 Post by BigFish »

I think that would only complicate things. What happens if you have characters named Bob, Ben and Bill?
Actually, the same could be said about RenPy's character system. Each character usually has one letter assigned to it. I mean, you CAN use multiple letters in RenPy, but that just ruins your typing rhythm, I've noticed. Besides, in most visual novels, I've noticed that character's names start with different letters, although feel free to correct me on this.
or you can drop down a list of all previously entered names
...how does this work? Do you have to click on the drop down menu to get this list? Or is there a keyboard shortcut?

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#109 Post by PyTom »

BigFish wrote:
I think that would only complicate things. What happens if you have characters named Bob, Ben and Bill?
Actually, the same could be said about RenPy's character system. Each character usually has one letter assigned to it. I mean, you CAN use multiple letters in RenPy, but that just ruins your typing rhythm, I've noticed. Besides, in most visual novels, I've noticed that character's names start with different letters, although feel free to correct me on this.
Well, one thing about Ren'Py's system is that it separates the character's name from how you use that character in dialogue. If I had a game with Bob, Ben, and Bill in it, I'd probably assign them to o, e, and i, respectively... especially if they were the sort of major characters you use throughout the game. (If each showed up only once, then I'd probably just use bob, ben, and bill.)
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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#110 Post by Nuke_Bloodaxe »

The drop down list is mouse manipulatable, but as it's in development I suspect there may be a short-cut in the works ( when selecting that character you immediately gain access to all of their voice and graphical assets; the application shifts focus to them ). However, looking at the way people are indicating how they put together their works, with the emphasis being on speed, don't you find that a bit of a hindrance to quality?

I can certainly understand short-cuts being necessary to in situ writing, but quick switching between characters, and the required change in thinking for that characters perspective, always strikes me as being an important thing to take pause at. Certainly I've found switching personality types for each character, when writing, to take a few moments:- during which time I could be selecting the character out of a list automatically.

Alternatively, I can also see that it may simply be the difference between using Ruby, or coding in C. Additionally, the perspective between a writer of novels, and a writer of visual novels would be different.

Basically, I think what may be happening here is that we have one perspective attempting to shoehorn its methodology into a system for which it is not suitable. Sometimes different systems are just that, and each needs to be kept quite separate to a point, or the result can be *thinks carefully* a "man bear pig" http://www.thinkgene.com/scientists-suc ... g-chimera/; something I'm sure that everyone would agree would be of no help to anyone if released.

I think the real question is which parts of the current paradigm are actually suitable for introduction to a visual interface system, as opposed to a scripting system, and which should be left out [ due to their hindering rather than advancing the application ].

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#111 Post by Jake »

Nuke_Bloodaxe wrote: I can certainly understand short-cuts being necessary to in situ writing, but quick switching between characters, and the required change in thinking for that characters perspective, always strikes me as being an important thing to take pause at. Certainly I've found switching personality types for each character, when writing, to take a few moments:- during which time I could be selecting the character out of a list automatically.
Hmm. Personally, I would agree if you were talking about a scene in which there's a conversation between six or seven characters, or between characters I've not really developed yet, but most of the time I can reel off dialogue - at least, first-draft stuff, which is all I want to write the first time through - between two or three characters I know well enough without pause at all.

I wonder whether this is at least partly a question of methodology; myself, I tend to be the "edit it later" kind of writer. I'm writing a short VN right now: I started by writing out a brief bullet-pointed timeline, starting a little before the actual story starts and running 'til the epiologue; I then wrote out a sketchy list of scenes which I think the story should be broken down into then fiddled with that 'til it looked like it made sense pacing-wise (all this in notepad); next I opened SciTE and started a Ren'Py script to type it out. Now I'm in the middle of my first draft; I'll write out each scene without thinking a great deal about it, not necessarily writing in the order it occurs, just getting the approximate length and content of each scene down so I can then read through it from the beginning as a first-time reader would and see which bits I think need editing. Later I'll quite possibly cut and paste chunks of it into different places, or fiddle with the dialogue if some of the characterisation's off, or change what happens in one of the scenes... but reading through the whole thing really helps me determine things like pacing and flow, and for that I need to have had my first draft done without spending too long thinking about those things while I'm writing it.

I've known some writers who seem to think that once they've put something on the page it's irrevocable, editing is impossible, and they have to get it absolutely right first time and thus think about it before writing. I can kind of understand where the mentality comes from, and I can see that it would leave the space to select stuff from lists or whatever, but it's not the way I work. By the time I'm really properly spending more than half a second pondering a character's turn of phrase I've already laid out most of the prose and I'm just playing with it. (And as it goes, quite frequently the original dialogue does mostly survive the editing process; often bits are cut or inserted, but I don't usually find that I have to totally change the way characters are behaving, because I've thought about that before I started writing.)
Nuke_Bloodaxe wrote: I think the real question is which parts of the current paradigm are actually suitable for introduction to a visual interface system, as opposed to a scripting system, and which should be left out [ due to their hindering rather than advancing the application ].
Sure, and I wouldn't suggest that - for example - it would be a good idea to require textual definitions of graphic or sound assets in a GUI system. But fundamentally, writing is about words, and you type words, you don't drag-and-drop them with a mouse. Writers aren't afraid of Ren'Py and other script-based engines because they're afraid of typing; anyone who has done any writing before is already perfectly used to typing character names over and over again, their hands not leaving the keyboard for long stretches at a time.

And fundamentally, if Novelty - or any engine, for that matter - gets in the way of just sitting down and typing a script, then writers won't use it. If it supports one writing method and not another, then only some writers will be able to use it.
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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#112 Post by Sin »

I'm curious. What do you think about the other scripting languages? Take the Blade engine for instance, where you have to specifically call a text output command with attributes and wrap the line with brackets?

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#113 Post by Jake »

Sin wrote:I'm curious. What do you think about the other scripting languages? Take the Blade engine for instance, where you have to specifically call a text output command with attributes and wrap the line with brackets?
Personally, I find those pretty awkward as well, and that was one of the reasons I've never really considered using Blade for anything. ;-)

NScripter/ONScripter I had a brief look at when I first started looking around at VN-making, but quickly discarded for impenetrableness.

But, there were lots of other problems with scripting for Blade last time I checked; using numbers to refer to things which should really get textual names, the rather limited featureset, the lack of cross-platform compatibility, and so on. Not to mention that I didn't like the attitude on the forums when I looked them over last.



(I should point out that I have nothing at all against a non-scripting-oriented approach, I'm happy to type into a GUI app instead of a text file... so long as it's not any harder or more awkward. But then, given that I have no problems with coding I guess I'm not really in the target audience anyway. ;-))
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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#114 Post by Sin »

Yeah. Of all of the VN engines I've looked at I thought Blade was the worst by far. Unnecessarily cumbersome scripting syntax and a lack of features.

Btw, I wasn't challenging your opinions. We're both on the same page about most of what's been said here.

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#115 Post by chronoluminaire »

I'd just like to weigh in to this discussion, to mention a couple of things:
1) I write a sizeable fraction of my Ren'Py code as plain-text documents on my Windows Mobile PDA, because that way I can be writing wherever I am. Then I'll transfer the script onto my computer every few days and make whatever slight tweaks are needed to put it into proper Ren'Py syntax. If I were using Novelty, I'd want to be able to do the same.

2) Copy-paste, one dialogue line at a time, for thousands of lines, is emphatically not a solution.

3) I recognise that my use case may not be the target audience for Novelty, because I'm a coder and an avid user of Ren'Py.
I released 3 VNs, many moons ago: Elven Relations (IntRenAiMo 2007), When I Rule The World (NaNoRenO 2005), and Cloud Fairy (the Cute Light & Fluffy Project, 2009).
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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#116 Post by Nuke_Bloodaxe »

Hmmm, actually might there be a way of using a small import application, that takes a large text file with names, and associates it with a given character in the Novelty engine. Then the text could be moved around as appropriate. Alternatively it could be in-built to novelty, adding a bit more power without sacrificing anything already in place [ I'd tend towards that ].

However, I'm puzzled, the description of the prose and dialogue here seems to indicate a mostly linear structure. Is that the case, and if so, for a non-linear story would the idea of using modular sections of text for import be suitable? [ I'm thinking marking a section group1, group2 etc. Allowing for quick movement of the branches in novelty using drag and drop ].

Sin, what are your thoughts on having the ability to take a simplistic name and dialogue text file, then allowing the user to drag and drop elements around the chapters as necessary?

The Character, and elements for that character, could be already in place, but an import dialogue option could exist. The user could then insert dialogue samples, sounds, movies, image changes etc in between the lines as usual [ or simply associate the data with the dialogue line ]. This feels to me to be the best of both worlds, and does not need a compromise.

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#117 Post by Jake »

Nuke_Bloodaxe wrote: However, I'm puzzled, the description of the prose and dialogue here seems to indicate a mostly linear structure. Is that the case, and if so, for a non-linear story would the idea of using modular sections of text for import be suitable? [ I'm thinking marking a section group1, group2 etc. Allowing for quick movement of the branches in novelty using drag and drop ].
In general, most VNs seem to have relatively infrequent branches, in terms of lines-of-dialogue-between-branches. That is, long sequences of prose between choices.

I'm not sure why it would be better to have to pre-define groups of lines rather than being able to - say - shift-select or ctrl-select to pick a group on the fly? It seems likely to me that the chunks that you're going to be wanting to move around at a later date aren't that predictable... unless I'm missing the point.

(Personally, I quite like the relatively-frequent decision points style, but that seems to be relegated to the 'dating sim' type of game rather than a strict VN. But then, the one I'm working on at the moment has no choices at all. ;-) )
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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#118 Post by Nuke_Bloodaxe »

shift/ctrl-select would most certainly be suitable, I was just thinking that if the writer concerned was doing all the writing exclusively in a text editor, that it would be better to group it. That would allow for faster operation later, if all the text was already grouped [ this does not exclude shift/ctrl-select ].

In addition I am mainly thinking from the frequent decision path perspective. Right now I have branches/decisions very frequently within the text, plus some completely off-base plot changes that shift the story to completely different modes; there is no concrete defined hero, or villain, character for the character perspective choice at the beginning. Your choices swing the perspective of choice from good to evil, and vice versa. I'm also taking the time to allow for completely different arcs, which is an extremely difficult endeavour. No doubt you are already familiar with this in your writing, and the additional headaches it creates with the multi-spectral time lines.

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#119 Post by Sin »

Before I started working on Novelty I wrote up a list of goals that I wanted to meet.
The first one was something like "Make a super easy interface that anyone can use".
The one directly after that was "Don't let the simplistic interface ruin it for the pros".

I still believe that Novelty is as efficient as can be for writing dialogue for a graphical IDE, but I must admit that I was unable to predict the copy/paste methodology. Because you're not working with plain text but prefabricated action-blocks, it doesn't lend itself very well to copying and pasting of large bodies of text written in a different medium or tool.

I've decided to address this by adding another tool to the suite called Novelty Writer (previously mentioned but not named). It will be a seperate tool (much like Novelty XML Designer) that will solve this problem.

I can't go into details (as it doesn't exist yet) but it will be like a non-graphical IDE for editing Novelty games. It will convert a Novelty project into plain text that can be easily read and edited. Anything that's not dialogue will be stripped away, kept under the hood, so you can focus purely on the writing. Non-dialogue actions will still have some sort of representation in the text, but only so that you can write around them.

It's not designed to be a replacement for the IDE. Most work will still be performed in the (very sleek) main editor. It's only meant to serve as a supplement for experienced writers and to address this specific issue.

On branches: Novelty already separates stories into chapters, pages and threads. It was designed on the same observation that Jake mentioned that choices in visual novels are either few and far between or highly regular (like a day-planner game). Novelty and the new Writer will support both scenarios.

I've thought about an import feature but I came to the conclusion that it wasn't a very good solution. An importer must assume that the input is valid and syntactically correct, which obviously can't be guaranteed. Invalid texts may give unexpected results.
Also, an importer is only one-way. A targetted editing mode, or in this case a seperate tool, would enable two-way editing as well as ability to check for and correct syntax errors before committing to any changes to a potentially large project.

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Re: Novelty progress update (VN maker)

#120 Post by Nuke_Bloodaxe »

I think that sounds quite suitable.

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