Novelty progress update (VN maker)

[Sin]

To quench some of the worries regarding the XML I decided to conjure up a new tool.
It's called Novelty XML Designer and is a text-editor for designing Novelty objects in XML.
The good part is that it will automatically build and show a preview of the object as you're writing it(!).

It also has syntax highlighting for easy reading and an auto-completion feature that will show you all the currently valid tags and attributes. You're never left guessing. All of the assets appear in the window on the left and they can be compiled into a single content file, ready for use in Novelty.

Note: Let me stress (again) that a tool like this is only useful for making complex, multi-layered objects, such as this dialog box background:



Also note how the XML-code itself looks. It should be fairly self-explanatory (except the first row which an XML-standard-thing and included automatically).

PS. It took me only two days to make this tool and now I'm going back to working on Novelty :p

[KuraiX]

To quench some of the worries regarding the XML I decided to conjure up a new tool.
It's called Novelty XML Designer and is a text-editor for designing Novelty objects in XML.
The good part is that it will automatically build and show a preview of the object as you're writing it(!).

It also has syntax highlighting for easy reading and an auto-completion feature that will show you all the currently valid tags and attributes. You're never left guessing. All of the assets appear in the window on the left and they can be compiled into a single content file, ready for use in Novelty.

Note: Let me stress (again) that a tool like this is only useful for making complex, multi-layered objects, such as this dialog box background:



Also note how the XML-code itself looks. It should be fairly self-explanatory (except the first row which an XML-standard-thing and included automatically).

PS. It took me only two days to make this tool and now I'm going back to working on Novelty :p

This looks more than promising. If you release it soon, then I don`t have to read all the tutorial on Ren`Py (Even so I think ren`py is a great tool)
There is only one thing I`d like to ask about your Project:

You said something about XML, and here you say that you have writen a new tool for Novelty. Well it is really that difficult to work with XML? I`m just curios, because I think that a good old "Helpmenu" would be a good Idea. There you could just put some tags in like "adding music". And when the user clicks on it, the Code, which he/she has too use (seems that there isn`t much need for code, but you said that everything added, had to be declared in XML. At least if I understood you right ^^).

Well, I really can`t wait for my first session with this VN maker.

[monele]

It looks easy enough to me. But I stress that we should have wizards for simple things like a regular text box with a background texture... or for characters, or buttons... stuff like that. Now if people want to have multiple pictures, animated, and moving around the text box... since it's not standard, they should go through the effort of building it themselves

[Sin]

You said something about XML, and here you say that you have writen a new tool for Novelty. Well it is really that difficult to work with XML? I`m just curios, because I think that a good old "Helpmenu" would be a good Idea. There you could just put some tags in like "adding music". And when the user clicks on it, the Code, which he/she has too use (seems that there isn`t much need for code, but you said that everything added, had to be declared in XML. At least if I understood you right ^^).

Yes. The XML is what you see in the screenshot:

Code: Select all

<Texture name="etna" src="data/textures/characters/etna2.png"/>
<Canvas name="My textbox" size="800,200"/>
...

It's not really 'code' in the programming sense of the word. In fact Novelty requires no programming. It's more about describing objects and their relation to one another. It's not too complicated and the tool will give you hints on what to type next. But of course I wouldn't release it without including proper help files.

However, I get the notion that you're misunderstood my post. This is not the visual novel maker. This is a seperate tool for making content. In the case of adding music, you would type:

Code: Select all

<Audio name="My song" src="songfilenamehere.mp3" />

You save the file and then the mp3-file will appear in the asset browser within Novelty as 'My song'. But in the case of audio and textures(images) you won't need to use this tool.

It looks easy enough to me. But I stress that we should have wizards for simple things like a regular text box with a background texture... or for characters, or buttons... stuff like that. Now if people want to have multiple pictures, animated, and moving around the text box... since it's not standard, they should go through the effort of building it themselves

There will be wizards for importing textures and sounds and stuff but you seem to want to go one step further. The question is how far Novelty should go in assuming how a VN should look?

In the case of the text box, is it a single image? ..or is it a border*? Does is include any buttons for quick saving/loading?
The text box I made in the screenshot could also had been built in Novelty by simply stacking objects on top of eachother. But by typing out the XML, I get to say that it's all one single object and that the components should resize together. Stuff like that is really hard for me as the developer to predict and build a wizard for.

Buttons are also a good example. A button could be made from a single image or to up to four images (default, pressed, hover, disabled). It could also be made up of a scalable border box and have a caption (text-object).. Maybe the caption should show in a different color when you hover the button.. You get my point.

I could easily make a wizard that asks the user some question and then makes a vanilla button based on the input, but I'd rather write an extensive tutorial on how to type it out in the XML designer**. I don't know. It's a tough call. Novelty will still include a bunch of sample buttons and textboxes for anyone who just want to get going and isn't interested in art design right off the bat.
_________________________________
*: 'Border' is a native object type that works like an 'image', but it stretches the center of it's texture, ie. a texture of a circle will stretch to look like a box with rounded corners when you size it up. Useful for making scalable boxes.

**: It's not terribly hard. Here's an example of a button:

Code: Select all

<Button name="Button1">
  (Images, borders or whatever goes here)
</Button>
or
<Button name="Button2">
  <Default>
   ...
  </Default>
  <Hover>
    ...
  </Hover>
  <Pressed>
    ...
  </Pressed>
  <Disabled>
    ...
  </Disabled>
</Button>

[monele]

I can see the difficulty of making a wizard, although in my mind, for the button wizard, it's more like asking :
- Simple button or button with states (hover/active/etc...)?
For simple button :
- Choose a picture for the button / enter text
For complex button :
- Choose text (can be empty)
- Choose standard picture
- Choose hover picture
etc...

A wizard should only be for the simplest versions and only allow a few choices... and mostly "choose text, choose picture" type... maybe "choose size" (unless they can be resized in the interface itself).

But another possibility would be to give XML templates for the basic stuff. Just like you did in your post . If we have these for simple buttons, complex buttons, text boxes, complex text boxes and a few other elements, we can at least simply change the values for images, color, size, and be done with it. It's retyping everything each time which would be time-wasting in my mind.

[Jake]

I could easily make a wizard that asks the user some question and then makes a vanilla button based on the input, but I'd rather write an extensive tutorial on how to type it out in the XML designer**

**: It's not terribly hard

It's trivial for you, and trivial for I, and I expect trivial for Monele, because we're programmers; we do this kind of thing every day. But seriously - it's my experience that non-programmers will often not even attempt a task they consider 'programming' because they think that they know it's too hard, and that any assurances to the contrary are just programmers being smug (and/or far cleverer than them, depending on how insecure they are).

Seriously - I would recommend not expecting the user to type any XML at all, 'cause it'll deter exactly the kind of user who would really benefit from this kind of tool. Even if the wizards Monele suggests are simple and boilerplate and don't get close to the full flexibility of the engine, I'd suggest they're still very important.

[chronoluminaire]

I thoroughly agree. If you're aiming to make the engine require no programming, then make it not require typing any XML either. It's just the kind of thing that will put off a number of people.

And do indeed keep the wizards simple. I'd recommend having one "Extra-simple" option for most wizards where you just choose one image filename or string of text and let everything else be defaults.

[Sin]

First of all, XML was never 'required'. It's an option for those who wish to make their own characters and other complex objects (characters can have multiple states in Novelty. Smiling, laughing, crying, etc. But again, it's all optional).

I'm well aware that the XML is deterring to non-programmer, but I don't think you can really compare it to programming. It's not anything like programming at all. I believe most people will be smart enough to figure out how to make their own content, if only because the tool is holding your hand all the way. It will give you hints on what you need to type next. It will tell you when you're wrong (typos, invalid values..) and it will constantly show you the result of any changes you make.

I believe I've lowered the level of entry as much as humanly possible in regard to the XML with this tool. A more hands-on tool where you had the same amount of control but had to click buttons and navigate menues would probably turn out more complicated and daunting to beginners than the text editor. Everyone's used notepad one time or another. In combination with good tutorials and examples I'm don't think anyone, programmer or not, will have any problems with it.

But I'm not brushing off any of this as being wrong. You all have a point and I'm I appreciate the feedback. I'm convinced now, thanks to molene, that there could be wizards for basic objects and not just for importing files. I'll put that one on my to do-list.

It's retyping everything each time which would be time-wasting in my mind.

That's a misconception. You only have to do this once per asset. Just as you only make an image once for a Ren'py game. Once the asset has been created it's infinitely reusable. You don't have to worry about filenames or anything like that. It will just work. Any case that I can think of where typing something out would feel like a waste of time will be dealt with by a wizard, as I agreed above.

And do indeed keep the wizards simple. I'd recommend having one "Extra-simple" option for most wizards where you just choose one image filename or string of text and let everything else be defaults.

Of course. Because it's an xml-based system at it's core, all attributes have default values in case something is not defined or invalid.

Lastly I need to emphasize that this XML-based asset system isn't going anywhere and there won't be any alternatives. Removing it would essentially remove what makes Novelty 'a good idea'. I need you to trust me on this. I know I'm shooting myself in the foot by showing off all of this without actually giving you the tools to try it yourselves. I should probably make a push to release something soon. Before you grow sick of my teasing ;D

[monele]

That's a misconception. You only have to do this once per asset.

As you say at the end of your post, we may be confused about how it works. If an asset is, for example, the general concept of a button, then it's good : we create the template of a button once and can reuse it multiple times for many buttons, just changing attributes such as the label and the picture used.
If an asset is a single button such as the "Cancel" button with a particular background picture, and we have to type XML to make this button, and the "OK" button and the "Load" button, etc... then it will be frustrating (unless, of course, there's a Wizard, as suggested).

So which one will it be?

molene

It's actually Monele, pronounced Mo-nuh-luh. Or "Moni" for short

[Sin]

That's true. Although, given you already have the textures ready for all of the buttons you would could make all of them in one go (in the same xml-file). If it's just the texture that differs then you can just make one button, copy the whole block of XML and change the texture-attribute for the next one.

But yeah, I'll make a wizard too.

PS. Sorry for the name thing. :p

[Enerccio]

It's actually Monele, pronounced Mo-nuh-luh. Or "Moni" for short

OT: I always thought that you are spelled as monele ("mone" as mone from mone in yumeria and le as in "le"vitation)

[monele]

OT: I always thought that you are spelled as monele ("mone" as mone from mone in yumeria and le as in "le"vitation)

That's how most people pronounce it if they don't know. Either that or "Monehl". The pronounciation comes from a local dialect, so I don't expect many people to guess it right

[Vatina]

Either that or "Monehl".

That's how I did it ^^; Well, now I know.

[Jake]

Either that or "Monehl".

Me too, although I had a sneaking suspicion that it was probably wrong 'cause if it was supposed to be pronounced like that, wouldn't it be "Monelle"?

My French pronunciation sucks, though, I did German at school - where so long as you've got the 'ch' sound down it's not too far from English...

[Cybeat]

I always thought it was mo-nee-lee or something. I'm bad at this....