Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#16 Post by HiddenCreature »

I agree with Aviala, Kuiper. Creators have to take at least some responsibility for the messages they send out.

My concern with this demographic for most dating games, is practically no one is showing them the actual side to dating. You don't have to be super talented or buy a bunch of gifts. And starting a conversation is far from difficult, which is all you need to do to have a date.

My problem isn't necessarily that they make games with unconfident protagonists. My problem is they stay that way, and still get the girl in the end.

It's reinforcing the idea that being this way is okay. That you don't have to improve yourself, because you can still get that super desirable date.

Instead, why not make a game with an unconfident protagonist, that learns how to actually be more confident and secure? People would see the character is just like them with similar problems, and how he reasonably overcomes them. Instead of how life is conveniently scripted to always work out for him.

The reason I can't enjoy these games is because I know how unbelievable they are. I can believe a story about a wimp deciding to grow up, get confidence, and finally date an attractive girl at school. I can't believe a story about a wimp who conveniently gets all these attractive girls interested in him, when he himself is far from interesting.

But there are people who do enjoy these games, because like Kuiper said, it's believable to them. And that's because they have no dating skills, and don't know what dating is really like.

Yes, it's their job to discern fact from fiction. But unless your parents teach you what dating is really like, all teenagers know is what they hear from their friends, and what they're exposed to in the media. And the majority of media targeting teenagers, profits from giving them this false idea of dating.

This is a problem almost anywhere, but I think even more so in Japan, because of the cultural differences. Keep in mind, I'm not a sociologist, but I've been studying the culture a bit. At least compared to Americans, they don't approach strangers as much. Neither do we, but they even more so.

And when they get spouses, it's usually not because they went out and tried to find someone. Usually their friends/parents arrange a date, or they meet someone near work. By the time they're married with kids, they never really had a dating life growing up, in school or even after it in their twenties. So there's no skills to pass on to their children.

I understand not wanting them to date when they should focus on school. But what about when they graduate and should be dating? Again, no skills to pass on and the cycle repeats.

Without your parents, there's almost no role models showing you how to have practical dating skills. This was a problem for me and a lot of guys back in school. I mean, isn't that why in these games, the guy who dates a lot of girls is so cool? Because for the average guy, getting a date is difficult, so of course the guy who gets one is considered admirable.

But I could argue the social implications all day. At the very least, I'd just like to see something done differently with these kinds of games more often.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#17 Post by Kinjo »

HiddenCreature wrote:I agree with Aviala, Kuiper. Creators have to take at least some responsibility for the messages they send out.

My concern with this demographic for most dating games, is practically no one is showing them the actual side to dating. You don't have to be super talented or buy a bunch of gifts. And starting a conversation is far from difficult, which is all you need to do to have a date.

My problem isn't necessarily that they make games with unconfident protagonists. My problem is they stay that way, and still get the girl in the end.

It's reinforcing the idea that being this way is okay. That you don't have to improve yourself, because you can still get that super desirable date.

Instead, why not make a game with an unconfident protagonist, that learns how to actually be more confident and secure? People would see the character is just like them with similar problems, and how he reasonably overcomes them. Instead of how life is conveniently scripted to always work out for him.
Agreed. As much as I enjoy good fantasy stories, I think I'm not the only person who'd like to read a story that actually teaches applicable skills in the real world. Those are the ones that stick with you, where you feel like you've learned something valuable. So it's pretty important that a creator, if they decide to send a message in their story, does send a good one.

A good message in this case would be one that shows it's not all that hard to learn social skills or get a date and both the protagonist and the player end up learning something valuable to put into use in their daily lives. That would feel pretty rewarding -- now that the protag has the confidence to get a girlfriend, the player can too!

I also agree that I'd be interested in reading stories that don't necessarily end once you "get the girl", because I'm sure there are a lot of interesting plots that could work with that. What if it doesn't work out? What if she's cheating on you? What if you cheat on her? It's not always happily ever after, and it'd be interesting to read some stories where more complicated things happen (as they often do in real life).

It probably stems from the evolution of the medium. Dating sims were simple and straightforward at first, but now there's interest in them getting more complicated now that we're able to do more things with the technology (and people are getting tired of the same old thing).

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#18 Post by philat »

...did I really just read a post criticizing another culture for not being American enough in how it approaches dating?

ETA: And also state that being socially awkward is "not okay"?
Last edited by philat on Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#19 Post by papillon »

HiddenCreature wrote: My concern with this demographic for most dating games, is practically no one is showing them the actual side to dating. You don't have to be super talented or buy a bunch of gifts. And starting a conversation is far from difficult, which is all you need to do to have a date.

My problem isn't necessarily that they make games with unconfident protagonists. My problem is they stay that way, and still get the girl in the end.

It's reinforcing the idea that being this way is okay. That you don't have to improve yourself, because you can still get that super desirable date.
Couple of things to break down:

1 - People do not necessarily have to massively change themselves to get a date. And sending the message that they do has just as many potential problems as the other way around.

2 - There already are lots of romance games that are entirely about 'improving' yourself so that your love interest will notice you. That's the basic plotline of many, many life sims.

Yes, it is a bit of a hot button for me when someone starts laying into a genre and declaring that "all X are stupid because". Especially when, in most cases, the person making those statements is not very widely read in the genre they're dissing.

Are there bishoujo games with loser protagonists that girls are in love with for no obvious reason? Sure. But there are plenty where that's not true at all!

If you're going to argue that bishoujo games overwhelmingly feature hetare protagonists, you need data to back that up. Before you can address a 'problem' you first need to see if it actually is a problem! Having seen a handful of games you didn't like does not mean that all games are like that. So - what IS common in game releases? How many games do thing X, and how many games don't? Are there changes in trends over time?

If that sounds like way too much work, then maybe don't make sweeping statements you can't back up. :) There's absolutely nothing wrong with preferring games to be a certain way - so saying that you prefer protagonists who are confident, or become more confident, is fine! People might even be able to give you suggestions for games to play that match your tastes better.

Instead of starting off with 'protagonists in all dating games are too unrealistic', why not talk about a particular example that bothered you? That'll lead to a much more interesting critical discussion anyway, if we have an example to dissect.
Last edited by papillon on Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#20 Post by ThisIsNoName »

Quick note: I wrote this before papillion and philat posted, so some of these points might be repeated.
HiddenCreature wrote: This is a problem almost anywhere, but I think even more so in Japan, because of the cultural differences. Keep in mind, I'm not a sociologist, but I've been studying the culture a bit. At least compared to Americans, they don't approach strangers as much. Neither do we, but they even more so.

And when they get spouses, it's usually not because they went out and tried to find someone. Usually their friends/parents arrange a date, or they meet someone near work. By the time they're married with kids, they never really had a dating life growing up, in school or even after it in their twenties. So there's no skills to pass on to their children.

I understand not wanting them to date when they should focus on school. But what about when they graduate and should be dating? Again, no skills to pass on and the cycle repeats.

Without your parents, there's almost no role models showing you how to have practical dating skills. This was a problem for me and a lot of guys back in school. I mean, isn't that why in these games, the guy who dates a lot of girls is so cool? Because for the average guy, getting a date is difficult, so of course the guy who gets one is considered admirable.
One thing you'll want to be careful of when comparing cultures is Ethnocentricism. You're comparing how Japan is different from the west (and specifically America), but you aren't comparing how America is different from Japan. Americans are absolutely notorious for being friendly and open with strangers, so it doesn't make sense to compare them with a culture that places emphasis on fitting into society.

It's also worth noting that the cultures have entirely different goals. In America, the goal of having a relationship is built into the very idea of the "American Dream": find your dream boy/girl, buy a house, and raise your kids. If you don't have significant other, it's assumed that you just haven't found "the one" yet, rather than something you're doing wrong.

However, in Japan, the goal is to find your place in society. You work hard in school, so you can get into a good college, so you can get a good job, or find a good spouse. Often, people in Japan will look at things like dating sims and anime as a form of escapism, rather than something they should reference. The problem in Japan is that you have people who don't fit into their culture, and end up shut-ins or otaku. They still view the same stuff as escapism, but it's escapism from the fact that they feel like they'll never fit into society, and the problem becomes worse. They won't pursue the skills that they need for dating because they know that, according to societies rules, it's already hopeless. Eventually, that escapism becomes their only hope of finding someone.

I think I got a bit off track, but my point is that different cultures will have different "tool sets" for relationships. So I think creating dating sims as a point of reference for relationships can be as dangerous as the state that dating sims are in now, if not more so.

I definitely think dating sims can use more diversity, but I don't think it should be because people are trying to "fix" them.


EDIT: I should add that the statements I made about Japan are based on informal research a few years ago, and may not represent the current or entire state of Japan, blah, blah, blah. Take above statements with a grain of salt

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#21 Post by KuroOneHalf »

HiddenCreature wrote:I agree with Aviala, Kuiper. Creators have to take at least some responsibility for the messages they send out.

My concern with this demographic for most dating games, is practically no one is showing them the actual side to dating. You don't have to be super talented or buy a bunch of gifts. And starting a conversation is far from difficult, which is all you need to do to have a date.

My problem isn't necessarily that they make games with unconfident protagonists. My problem is they stay that way, and still get the girl in the end.
I don't see why you find this problematic. When you look at the other side of the coin, isn't this what is happening to the girl? If the guy is "getting" the girl, then the girl is "being gotten". She's getting her (possibly) desired partner without having to change or actively try to be attractive to that person she's trying to get close to.

By your logic, shouldn't we be focusing more on teaching girls how to make the opening moves with boys, since by default we're taught that men are supposed to be the initiators?

I also don't see why lack of confidence/introversion is being talked about with such negative connotations. Tons of great people have trouble dealing with their introversion and reaching out to others. That doesn't mean they're any less great, they just have a (might I remind, very common) communication problem. To many people starting a conversation is difficult. It's fine to encourage one to reach for the things they want, but chastising that their inability to do so feels wrong to me.

Lastly, I don't think teenagers are so gullible as to believe introversion will make them popular in romantic affairs. Enjoying these fantasies won't overwrite their beliefs.
Last edited by KuroOneHalf on Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#22 Post by trooper6 »

I don't think there is anything being wrong with being an introvert. And I think, certainly, there should be romance games for introverts.

But the games don't seem to understand introversion, or what introverts need to be comfortable in a relationship...and so the game ends up selling as ideal partners people who are not respectful of introverts boundaries and needs.

On a larger level, the problem to me too often seems to be, not the protagonist, but the love interests. Too often I see an idealization of emotional abuse as romance. That is something I worry about.

Another question I ponder...if otome and bishouju are aimed at 14 year olds in Japan, what does it say that so many 20 and 30 year olds consume this media, or media modeled off of it, outside of Japan? Why do 23 year old Americans (median age and most represented nationality here at LSF according to the 2014 User Survey) want to project themselves into protagonists in stories aimed at 14 year old Japanese kids (or fantasies of 14 year old Japanese kids).
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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#23 Post by papillon »

trooper6 wrote: Another question I ponder...if otome and bishouju are aimed at 14 year olds in Japan, what does it say that so many 20 and 30 year olds consume this media, or media modeled off of it, outside of Japan? Why do 23 year old Americans (median age and most represented nationality here at LSF according to the 2014 User Survey) want to project themselves into protagonists in stories aimed at 14 year old Japanese kids (or fantasies of 14 year old Japanese kids).
first - are either of those things actually true? (I'm dubious about the prospect of the average eroge being aimed at 14 year olds, and many of our forum members are here because they want to do something different than it's done in Japan)

second - even if it were true, what's odd about that? An awful lot of adults get involved in stories aimed at American kids (superhero comics) or British kids (Harry Potter).

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#24 Post by ThisIsNoName »

papillon wrote: second - even if it were true, what's odd about that? An awful lot of adults get involved in stories aimed at American kids (superhero comics) or British kids (Harry Potter).
Except in those examples, a lot of the adults who read/watch those stories are people who either grew up with it, or missed out on it when they were younger. I'm not sure that invalidates your point, but I thought I would bring it up. Maybe a better example would be bronies or adventure time fans?

Anyways, I was trying to find some demographics and I managed to find an article on dating sims and some of the contributing factors of why they are the way they are. It doesn't actually include any of the demographic I was looking for, but I thought it was interesting.

I've only browsed through it myself, so I'm not sure how relevent it is to the thread (or how biased it is), but at least it includes some concrete examples to talk about.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#25 Post by HiddenCreature »

@ papillon

I never said I was talking about all games. That wouldn't make any sense. How could I possibly make the deduction all characters in all those games were a specific way?

@ ThisIsNoName

This isn't meant to be offensive at all, but I think you're over analyzing what I said. Remember, I'm not a sociologist, so take my observations with a grain of a salt. And I cut myself off because it was getting off topic, and further explaining would take a LOT of space, which wouldn't be focusing on the particular topic enough. But I appreciate what you were trying to say.

@ Kuroonehalf

It doesn't matter if it's a girl or a boy making the initiative. What I don't get is how I'm expected to believe someone who would likely never approach strangers for a date, conveniently gets all these attractive people interested in them. I know it's fiction, but there's a limit to how much you stretch the rules, before I stop buying into the story, if that makes sense to you.

Here's what's wrong about being unconfident in some of these stories. That you literally make no effort to improve it, and still get relationships. That's not how life works. We all struggle with being nervous from time to time, but we learn how to overcome it.

In some of these games, the protagonist doesn't learn how to overcome it. If you're not secure enough with yourself, can you reasonably maintain a relationship? Of course not. So if you somehow do get a date, it won't last. That's the problem, not being unconfident in and of itself.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#26 Post by philat »

HiddenCreature wrote:This isn't meant to be offensive at all, but I think you're over analyzing what I said. Remember, I'm not a sociologist, so take my observations with a grain of a salt.
...or maybe you could not say things that are both dismissive of other cultures and wild over-generalizations?
HiddenCreature wrote:It doesn't matter if it's a girl or a boy making the initiative. What I don't get is how I'm expected to believe someone who would likely never approach strangers for a date, conveniently gets all these attractive people interested in them. I know it's fiction, but there's a limit to how much you stretch the rules, before I stop buying into the story, if that makes sense to you.

Here's what's wrong about being unconfident in some of these stories. That you literally make no effort to improve it, and still get relationships. That's not how life works. We all struggle with being nervous from time to time, but we learn how to overcome it.

In some of these games, the protagonist doesn't learn how to overcome it. If you're not secure enough with yourself, can you reasonably maintain a relationship? Of course not. So if you somehow do get a date, it won't last. That's the problem, not being unconfident in and of itself.
Frankly, I don't understand why you're so adamant that dating games should realistically portray real-life relationships. They're already patently fantasy, as has been pointed out many times. Besides the fact that NOBODY should be learning "real life dating" from dating games, any more than anybody should be learning how to shoot guns from playing COD, if we really want to talk about how dating games may be harmful, somehow imparting the idea that other people might like you even if you're introverted or socially awkward would probably be near the last thing on my list, coming in way after 1) the blatant objectification of women (and men), 2) the entire notion that your choices absolutely control whether or not someone falls in love with you (people are not vending machines that dispense sex if you successfully enter the Konami code), 3) perpetuation of unrealistic beauty ideals, etc.

I'm sorry, but you're coming off spectacularly badly. Part of this stems from papillon's point that you are making sweeping generalizations without specific examples, which you've conveniently brushed aside as "well, but of course I wasn't!" -- doesn't help, fyi.

If you prefer games with a confident, well-defined protagonist, far be it from me to tell you you're wrong. If you want to make a game with a confident, well-defined protagonist, go for it! What not to do: 1) disparage a vague, undefined something as "unrealistic" despite (admittedly!) not understanding the real culture in which it was made and 2) repeatedly argue with those who have a better understanding of that culture than you.

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#27 Post by Kinjo »

Kuroonehalf wrote:I don't see why you find this problematic. When you look at the other side of the coin, isn't this what is happening to the girl? If the guy is "getting" the girl, then the girl is "being gotten". She's getting her (possibly) desired partner without having to change or actively try to be attractive to that person she's trying to get close to.

By your logic, shouldn't we be focusing more on teaching girls how to make the opening moves with boys, since by default we're taught that men are supposed to be the initiators?
That's a good point, and I think that should be done too. Why should a girl have to wait for a boy she likes to go talk to her? But the point there is that the boy sees something positive or attractive about the girl, yet the girl has no reason to see anything positive or attractive about the boy. Yet the boy wants (and in some cases, gets) a relationship with her.

But about the introversion thing, to me there are two parts to that: first, there's nothing wrong with being shy or introverted. I was REALLY shy for a long time, but I've learned how to talk to people and interact and it's helped me out in a lot of ways. Being shy is a fear of social interaction, and the more you do it and the more you build confidence, the less scary it is and the more you start to enjoy it. I'm still working on overcoming a lot of my shyness but compared to a lot of people I'm not too shy anymore.

That's the real life version, but there's also the literary perspective. It's not interesting to read about a protagonist who stays the same. That's a flat character. The structure for these kinds of stories usually involves the main character, a goal, and the main character overcoming a conflict (in this case, their social ineptitude) in order to reach that goal (get a girlfriend). That's the formula for a story. So when that formula is broken -- the main character reaches the goal without resolving any conflict -- the story suffers from it.

So I think I get what HiddenCreature is saying. In real life, girls (and guys) have standards for who they will want to date. The guy/girl who doesn't know how to interact with people will be at the bottom of that list. The clear and obvious answer is that the games where this happens are simply wish fulfillment, but not healthy wish fulfillment. The alternative is to make a game where the character overcomes his fear and insecurities and gains a sense of internal self-worth, making him attractive to both other people and to himself.

I can certainly understand why some people might want to play a game like this rather than the typical wish fulfillment game, because of its educational value. It's inspirational to see someone overcome goals like that in fiction, and teaches you things that can be useful in the real world (and video games are very efficient for learning real world skills).
trooper6 wrote:On a larger level, the problem to me too often seems to be, not the protagonist, but the love interests. Too often I see an idealization of emotional abuse as romance. That is something I worry about.
Incidentally, you can kind of see how this might turn into an emotional abuse story. If the main character feels entitled to the love of the girls because they should love him no matter how socially inept he is (among all his other unlisted faults) then you can imagine a scenario where a girl does enter into an abusive relationship with him and that's not a good thing (especially for our protagonist to be doing).

I think it's the conflicting ideas of "you're perfect the way you are" and "nobody is perfect". I wouldn't condone asking someone to change who they are, but to improve their flaws. It's important to know what your flaws are so that you can get better at them and become a more well-rounded individual. That's how you get people wanting to date you.
papillon wrote:Instead of starting off with 'protagonists in all dating games are too unrealistic', why not talk about a particular example that bothered you? That'll lead to a much more interesting critical discussion anyway, if we have an example to dissect.

I think some examples both good and bad would be really helpful, because honestly I'm just generalizing a lot of things off the top of my head. :lol:

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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#28 Post by Kailoto »

I think, what I find most harming in dating sim games, is the notion that you have to mold yourself to be the ideal type of person for a girl (or boy, but I'm running with a male protagonist for simplicity.) You tell her what she wants to hear, give her things that she likes, and align your opinions with how she thinks, gradually making yourself a more attractive person to her. And if there's multiple girls (there almost always is), then what you have is a protagonist that doesn't have a consistent personality. It may be the same person in-universe, but each time a different girl is pursued, his personality changes to become similar to hers. And this is only worse in games where you can pursue multiple characters at a time.

I don't agree with the notion that the creator is responsible for being realistic - fiction is fiction, and shouldn't have to come with a warning label stating as such. Parents need to teach their kids how to determine the difference between reality and the virtual, not the people making fictional stories. (And people naturally learn the difference themselves.) But I do think that some aspects of creation can be harmful, but only because they also don't serve a real purpose and don't add to the quality of the story.

Like that tendency that I mentioned in the first paragraph. Yeah, it's completely wrong - healthy relationships in real life depend on both parties accepting each other for who they are, not changing themselves to fit a mold. But I hate it because it often detracts from the experience instead of adding. Characters become flat and static, the protagonist lacks and personality, and there's almost no conflict or struggle present in the plot. The story suffers for the mechanics, a fate which is all too common but nonetheless pitiful.

Whereas something like meeting cute - which is how you encounter 90% of love interests in visual novels - may be unrealistic, but it isn't harmful to the story. In fact it's an extremely useful way to introduce a lot of characters of the opposite gender without breaking the suspension of disbelief. Could a person playing it be led to believe that what they're missing is this first interaction, and not a plethora of other factors that stop them from getting a date? Could they develop bad habits that are reinforced by the experience? Maybe, but that's not my fault for putting it in the story. That's on them.

And something like a story ending after the first date... well, it depends. If the story should stop there - if the main conflicts have been overcome, and the characters have changed in a way that ensures their blossoming relationship will continue to thrive - then yes, I don't have a problem with an arc ending that way. It makes sense. Whereas if the story ends similarly, but without the dynamic characters and resolved conflict - if there's no story in between the beginning and end, only pursuit - then it's a poor decision. Not because it's unrealistic, but because it results in a shoddy story and empty experience.

As I stated before, wish fulfillment does not depend on a blank slate protagonist. Give me a compelling narrative that I have some say in shaping, and you can make it as unrealistic as you want; it'll still be fun and memorable.
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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#29 Post by Chocopyro »

Kuroonehalf wrote: I also don't see why lack of confidence/extroversion is being talked about with such negative connotations. Tons of great people have trouble dealing with their introversion and reaching out to others. That doesn't mean they're any less great, they just have a (might I remind, very common) communication problem. To many people starting a conversation is difficult. It's fine to encourage one to reach for the things they want, but chastising that their inability to do so feels wrong to me.
Yeah, I don't really see introversion as a communication problem, or even synonymous with "Shy" or "lacking in confidence". Introverts simply have a whole different way of interacting and relating to others. Think of it like preferring to use the backdoor rather than the crowded front entrance. I actually feel I exhibit confidence and a secure sense of self, and I will be the first to admit that I am the very definition of social recluse. That said, it's actually really easy to make friends and meet new people for me. And the approach to a conversation can be easy too, so long as I have something other than the weather or, god forbid, sports to talk about. I think the only thing people don't really understand about introverts is, we prefer to ease our way through conversations while remaining mindful of personal boundaries. Since introverts prefer testing the temperature of the water before taking the plunge (So to speak), when an introvert doesn't have something to lend to the conversation, then expecting us to force an answer we don't really have can kinda feel's mildly exasperating. Not so much in a way resembling anxiety, but rather, kind of a rude violation of privacy. And yes, introverts who do have social anxiety, or are shy, or lacking in confidence, would certainly be in a problematic situation, but introversion in and of itself isn't really a communication problem. Then again, I also happen to think of A.D.D. as a residual hunting adaptation in humanity, and not a disorder, so I guess my opinion might just be a wishful mechanism I established so I could continue to exist on believing I don't have any social or mental problems. :lol:
Kailoto wrote:I think, what I find most harming in dating sim games, is the notion that you have to mold yourself to be the ideal type of person for a girl (or boy, but I'm running with a male protagonist for simplicity.) You tell her what she wants to hear, give her things that she likes, and align your opinions with how she thinks, gradually making yourself a more attractive person to her. And if there's multiple girls (there almost always is), then what you have is a protagonist that doesn't have a consistent personality. It may be the same person in-universe, but each time a different girl is pursued, his personality changes to become similar to hers. And this is only worse in games where you can pursue multiple characters at a time.

I don't agree with the notion that the creator is responsible for being realistic - fiction is fiction, and shouldn't have to come with a warning label stating as such. Parents need to teach their kids how to determine the difference between reality and the virtual, not the people making fictional stories. (And people naturally learn the difference themselves.) But I do think that some aspects of creation can be harmful, but only because they also don't serve a real purpose and don't add to the quality of the story.

Like that tendency that I mentioned in the first paragraph. Yeah, it's completely wrong - healthy relationships in real life depend on both parties accepting each other for who they are, not changing themselves to fit a mold. But I hate it because it often detracts from the experience instead of adding. Characters become flat and static, the protagonist lacks and personality, and there's almost no conflict or struggle present in the plot. The story suffers for the mechanics, a fate which is all too common but nonetheless pitiful.

Whereas something like meeting cute - which is how you encounter 90% of love interests in visual novels - may be unrealistic, but it isn't harmful to the story. In fact it's an extremely useful way to introduce a lot of characters of the opposite gender without breaking the suspension of disbelief. Could a person playing it be led to believe that what they're missing is this first interaction, and not a plethora of other factors that stop them from getting a date? Could they develop bad habits that are reinforced by the experience? Maybe, but that's not my fault for putting it in the story. That's on them.

And something like a story ending after the first date... well, it depends. If the story should stop there - if the main conflicts have been overcome, and the characters have changed in a way that ensures their blossoming relationship will continue to thrive - then yes, I don't have a problem with an arc ending that way. It makes sense. Whereas if the story ends similarly, but without the dynamic characters and resolved conflict - if there's no story in between the beginning and end, only pursuit - then it's a poor decision. Not because it's unrealistic, but because it results in a shoddy story and empty experience.

As I stated before, wish fulfillment does not depend on a blank slate protagonist. Give me a compelling narrative that I have some say in shaping, and you can make it as unrealistic as you want; it'll still be fun and memorable.
:shock: This is just... I agree with every point and and thoroughly relate to every opinion made here... Like 100%. And I cannot for the life of me think of anything to either add to this post or take dispute. Well done. ^^
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Re: Protagonists in Dating Games Are Too Unrealistic?

#30 Post by E-night »

I am going to add to Chocopyro and state that introversion is absolutely not a communication problem and not shyness.

Introversion is gaining energy from solitary activitites and to be drained from too overwhelming social activies (such as large gatherings or parties).
From personal experience I can say that I have no problem talking with people, but prolonged exposure to situations where I have to be social with a large group of people makes me mentally exhausted. I need a least an hour or two per day where I can be alone to reharge my mind.

Extraverts tend to get energy from large social situations and be bored when on their own.

Also most people need both to be alone and to be social, so introvert/extravert is simple terms for which part is dominant. That said you can't learn an introvert to be extravert, or vice versa, because they get tired from the activities which strengthen the others.

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