What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#16 Post by RotGtIE » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:59 pm

The following is a list of lessons I learned either from the past six months of writing my script, or from watching others fail in their own projects:

Write what you know, and conduct extensive research on what you don't. Don't ever just wing it on a subject you know little about, and don't handwave away the details of a necessary part of your story because you aren't interested in said details. If one of your characters is a biologist, and you don't know anything about that career field, it's time to do your homework.

Reread what you've written, and be prepared to toss out large chunks of it or even rewrite entire scenes. Don't refuse to rewrite because you feel like you already spent enough time on a section. Don't avoid the painful task of ripping out a chunk of your shoddy work so that you can replace it with better execution. It's a pain in the ass, but just do it.

Learn the conventions and prove that you can execute them competently before you break away from them. Any idiot can ignore the rules and make something dumb. Bending the rules with finesse requires an understanding of what makes those rules work in the first place. When you bend the rules, it should be out of respect - not disdain - for them.

Expect your audience to be lazy. Be prepared to entertain them. Don't make them work for anything. Present your story to them in as digestible a form as you can. Purple prose is a constant temptation, but until you actually try reading your own script from the perspective of the audience, you cannot appreciate the simple luxury of intelligibility in a piece of writing.

Mass produce ideas, then throw most of them away. Preferably the bad ones. Let your story be the result of a survival of the fittest products of your imagination, or the collective imaginations of your team. There is always wasted, lost energy in transfer. The same is true of the creative process. Get used to creating excess so you can afford to lose some of it along the way.

Keep in mind the narrative purpose for every scene you write. Make a plan for what every piece is supposed to accomplish in terms of pacing the story, completing the events of a given chapter, linking one important scene to another, or affecting the reaction of your reader. Don't just start winging it and expect to be able to keep anything you write out of sheer spontaneity.

Keep working. Don't stop to check on social media, don't hang around in IRC indefinitely, and don't lurk forums without a clear purpose while you've still got work to do. You can get so much done in the time that you waste bullshitting around that it'll make your head spin if you really think about it. You can bullshit when you're done and have produced something to be proud of.

Use every resource available to you. Maximize your efficiency with whatever works, and push away distractions. What works is not always going to be what you want. You may have to listen to ambiance instead of your favorite music. You may have to shut off podcasts and talk to yourself instead. You may need to find a better program to work in. Use what works, not what you like.

Keep your eye on the prize. Make long and short term goals for the completion of your project, then pursue them aggressively. Tell yourself you're going to hit a certain word count every day, or a certain average daily word count every week. Don't forget that you have an objective, and every step you take forward brings you closer to achieving it.

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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#17 Post by Kailoto » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:39 am

I don't believe in universal truths... and the same applies to visual novels. Everything has an exception, even if it's completely remote and implausible. But I do believe in having personal standards and rules... so I guess I'll share some of mine, when it comes to writing and game-making in general.

Do: Know who your target audience is. (I see too many people trying to please everyone they can... figure out a demographic, and stick with it.)
Don't: Lose your creative direction. (This goes with what others have said - don't bow down to others to the point of losing sight of what you want to do.)
Do: Understand player intent. (If your game has choices, you have to consider what the player will be thinking and what their motivation will be. Design it into the script itself.)
Don't: Make something that doesn't rely on the medium. (I don't like stories that could just as easily be a book or movie rather than a VN. Some kinetic novels are great, but I'll never make one for this very reason.)

And finally, a big don't and a game killer for me: Don't make choices arbitrary. In most cases, a player should be able to understand the given intent behind different choices, and if there's a right and wrong answer, the information to make the right choice has to be available to the player. I don't believe in "tricking the player," and if a game does it to me, it absolutely destroys the experience.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#18 Post by namastaii » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:05 pm

A lot of these are really great. :)

I think I can think of a couple Do's and don'ts (AT LEAST IN MY PERSONAL OPINION OR MY PREFERENCE)

Do: Give the player lots of freedom (if its a game and not just a story)
Do: Unique gui or game concepts that aren't too overdone
Do: Create your own characters personalities and not go off of basic overused general ones
Do: Include something exciting in the first part of the novel to suck in readers/players


Don't: Use horrible spelling or grammar
Don't: Make adventure games MOSTLY just straight dialogue of conversation...That honestly just makes me want to stop playing, especially if the dialogue means NOTHING
Don't: Copy someone elses story plot and 'make it your own'

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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#19 Post by namastaii » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:07 pm

Kailoto wrote:I don't believe in universal truths... and the same applies to visual novels. Everything has an exception, even if it's completely remote and implausible. But I do believe in having personal standards and rules... so I guess I'll share some of mine, when it comes to writing and game-making in general.

Do: Know who your target audience is. (I see too many people trying to please everyone they can... figure out a demographic, and stick with it.)
Don't: Lose your creative direction. (This goes with what others have said - don't bow down to others to the point of losing sight of what you want to do.)
Do: Understand player intent. (If your game has choices, you have to consider what the player will be thinking and what their motivation will be. Design it into the script itself.)
Don't: Make something that doesn't rely on the medium. (I don't like stories that could just as easily be a book or movie rather than a VN. Some kinetic novels are great, but I'll never make one for this very reason.)

And finally, a big don't and a game killer for me: Don't make choices arbitrary. In most cases, a player should be able to understand the given intent behind different choices, and if there's a right and wrong answer, the information to make the right choice has to be available to the player. I don't believe in "tricking the player," and if a game does it to me, it absolutely destroys the experience.
I agree on the choice thing. THOUGH, if it's meant to try to build a bond with a certain character (especially if there are multiple players you can gain relationships with) I think it's acceptable to possibly not know some of the 'right' answers. As if in real life, when you're getting to know someone. You don't know if you guys are going to 'click' or not. At least, that's how I look at it.

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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#20 Post by Quelcezot » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:00 pm

I think that there are a lot of really good points in this thread, the only one I don't currently see being made is that while it can seem attractive to veer towards extremes - a golden mean is often good as well.

For example, it's all perfectly well to make a game that only you could like - but for most of us we do hope that others will play them. Taking others expectations into account and providing an experience you think will be meaningful to them is my personal first priority.

Same for writing and structure, it's good to have at least a rough idea of structure but focusing too much on structure can close opportunities for fresh discoveries while writing. Going completely without a guideline isn't ideal either of course, I imagine that would be very challenging.

As for marketing and the like, it's important but not more important than everything else.

Another completely personal "do" for me is working consistently. Some people work in mad artistic bursts, and for those that works for good for them. However most people do not work effectively this way despite wanting to.

Even if you're not feeling particularly inspired one day don't put off today's work to pile on the next.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#21 Post by Kailoto » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:53 pm

namastaii wrote:
Kailoto wrote:And finally, a big don't and a game killer for me: Don't make choices arbitrary. In most cases, a player should be able to understand the given intent behind different choices, and if there's a right and wrong answer, the information to make the right choice has to be available to the player. I don't believe in "tricking the player," and if a game does it to me, it absolutely destroys the experience.
I agree on the choice thing. THOUGH, if it's meant to try to build a bond with a certain character (especially if there are multiple players you can gain relationships with) I think it's acceptable to possibly not know some of the 'right' answers. As if in real life, when you're getting to know someone. You don't know if you guys are going to 'click' or not. At least, that's how I look at it.
I agree; those actually fall under the rule. Perhaps I wasn't clear, in which case I apologize. What I meant was that choices have to be written in a way that the player can clearly see the difference between the two, and that each option conveys a unique intent.

For example, say you're in a conversation and hit upon a sensitive topic. You have three choices, A, B, and C. The intent behind each option is A), to keep pressing the matter, B), to make a joke and try to avoid the topic, or C), to apologize for asking. That's a good set of choices, because each intent is different, and provided that the player is able to understand the intent in each of them, they can make a decision based off of what they think is the right answer. Even if the player doesn't know what the "right" option is, it's a fair set of choices.

A bad set of choices would be, say, "Dodge to the left" and "Dodge to the right." There's no difference in intent between the two, so you're giving the player a choice that is essentially a coin toss. That's what I meant about screwing over the player - if one of the choices is clearly the right choice, the player should be able to at least make an educated guess. It's okay if they're wrong, but they have to be given a fair chance.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#22 Post by namastaii » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:33 pm

Kailoto wrote:
namastaii wrote:
Kailoto wrote:And finally, a big don't and a game killer for me: Don't make choices arbitrary. In most cases, a player should be able to understand the given intent behind different choices, and if there's a right and wrong answer, the information to make the right choice has to be available to the player. I don't believe in "tricking the player," and if a game does it to me, it absolutely destroys the experience.
I agree on the choice thing. THOUGH, if it's meant to try to build a bond with a certain character (especially if there are multiple players you can gain relationships with) I think it's acceptable to possibly not know some of the 'right' answers. As if in real life, when you're getting to know someone. You don't know if you guys are going to 'click' or not. At least, that's how I look at it.
I agree; those actually fall under the rule. Perhaps I wasn't clear, in which case I apologize. What I meant was that choices have to be written in a way that the player can clearly see the difference between the two, and that each option conveys a unique intent.

For example, say you're in a conversation and hit upon a sensitive topic. You have three choices, A, B, and C. The intent behind each option is A), to keep pressing the matter, B), to make a joke and try to avoid the topic, or C), to apologize for asking. That's a good set of choices, because each intent is different, and provided that the player is able to understand the intent in each of them, they can make a decision based off of what they think is the right answer. Even if the player doesn't know what the "right" option is, it's a fair set of choices.

A bad set of choices would be, say, "Dodge to the left" and "Dodge to the right." There's no difference in intent between the two, so you're giving the player a choice that is essentially a coin toss. That's what I meant about screwing over the player - if one of the choices is clearly the right choice, the player should be able to at least make an educated guess. It's okay if they're wrong, but they have to be given a fair chance.
Ah! Definitely. Yeah, I agree 100%

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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#23 Post by trooper6 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:11 pm

Kailoto wrote: A bad set of choices would be, say, "Dodge to the left" and "Dodge to the right." There's no difference in intent between the two, so you're giving the player a choice that is essentially a coin toss. That's what I meant about screwing over the player - if one of the choices is clearly the right choice, the player should be able to at least make an educated guess. It's okay if they're wrong, but they have to be given a fair chance.
Choices don't always have to be about intent to be fun. Cause of Death did a good job with "Dodge to the left" and "Dodge to the right" choices. Usually, in the process of trying to succeed in some fight or pass by some trap. There are clues throughout the scene as to what the right choice is, and if you are paying attention you'll get the right answer.

I think there are a lot of different ways to do choices successfully. Again, the creator just has to make their creative choices well and with deliberate thoughtfulness.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#24 Post by Kailoto » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:47 am

trooper6 wrote:
Kailoto wrote: A bad set of choices would be, say, "Dodge to the left" and "Dodge to the right." There's no difference in intent between the two, so you're giving the player a choice that is essentially a coin toss. That's what I meant about screwing over the player - if one of the choices is clearly the right choice, the player should be able to at least make an educated guess. It's okay if they're wrong, but they have to be given a fair chance.
Choices don't always have to be about intent to be fun. Cause of Death did a good job with "Dodge to the left" and "Dodge to the right" choices. Usually, in the process of trying to succeed in some fight or pass by some trap. There are clues throughout the scene as to what the right choice is, and if you are paying attention you'll get the right answer.

I think there are a lot of different ways to do choices successfully. Again, the creator just has to make their creative choices well and with deliberate thoughtfulness.
Again, that actually falls under what I was saying. If you write clues into the script about which choices are right and which ones are wrong, then there's no problem.

Let me put it this way: there's two types of choices in games. Those that are actually choices, where you can pick whatever you want without being wrong, and those that are really just problems in the disguise of choices. If a choice has "right" and a "wrong" answer, or at least answers that are better than others, then it's a problem. If the choice is a legitimate choice and simply determines a local scene or what arc you begin, then it's a choice. Choices are forks in the road, problems are obstacles that you can pass or fail.

Choices have to be designed with intent. If there is no right or wrong answer, I need to know why I'm being given this choice. Is it so that I can pick which scene I want to see? To express my personality through dialogue? To get to a certain arc? If the writing isn't clear, or if there's no difference between choices, then that choice doesn't have to be there in the first place.

Problems have to be solvable. This one's more flexible; there's some leeway as to how much you have to enable the player. But for the most part, the player should be able to solve the problem without getting lucky or looking up a walkthrough. There should be some information that hints at the correct solution, and a savvy player should be able to pick up on that and use it to solve the problem.

I haven't played Cause of Death, but from what you've stated, it sounds a lot like the latter. Those aren't arbitrary choices; they're fair game as well.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#25 Post by Mad Harlequin » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:25 am

Kailoto wrote:Don't: Make something that doesn't rely on the medium. (I don't like stories that could just as easily be a book or movie rather than a VN. Some kinetic novels are great, but I'll never make one for this very reason.)
It seems I'm going to end up violating this rule twice . . . don't hate me!
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#26 Post by Kailoto » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:57 am

Mad Harlequin wrote:
Kailoto wrote:Don't: Make something that doesn't rely on the medium. (I don't like stories that could just as easily be a book or movie rather than a VN. Some kinetic novels are great, but I'll never make one for this very reason.)
It seems I'm going to end up violating this rule twice . . . don't hate me!
Don't worry! That's just a personal rule that I follow. And many kinetic novels actually do make use of the medium, even if it's just through voice acting or BGM.

I'm the type of person who really wants to push the boundaries of storytelling... it's why I tired of writing novels, because it feels like there's very little room to experiment with the medium. Interactive media, like visual novels and games in general, still have a lot of unexplored territory. They're the new frontier in fiction, which is why I'm drawn to them!
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#27 Post by Mad Harlequin » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:33 am

Kailoto wrote:I'm the type of person who really wants to push the boundaries of storytelling... it's why I tired of writing novels, because it feels like there's very little room to experiment with the medium. Interactive media, like visual novels and games in general, still have a lot of unexplored territory. They're the new frontier in fiction, which is why I'm drawn to them!
I'm the same way. I definitely want to publish some poetry and a novel or two down the line, but interactive media fascinate me. I suppose I should add that while my works in progress are going to be purely novel-like on the surface---well, at least one will be, for certain---I hope to do something interesting with each.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#28 Post by DrivenByTheWind » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:28 pm

trooper6 wrote:
namastaii wrote:Hahaha I totally thought it was satire. XD I see. Yeah, I do believe everyone should do stuff not based on what they think people like lol Variety is more interesting. Unique is more interesting.
And honestly, it is one of my biggest pet peeves. There are, IMO, way too many VNs that are following the conventional wisdom of what is supposed to be good. And it gets boring. Show me something I haven't seen already!
Voltage games make me shudder. While Voltage is a capable company and they produce MANY VNs... that is their downfall; they are capable and they produce MANY VNs--all of which follow a cookie cutter design and play-through that they refuse to deviate from. It just... *sigh* it frustrates me to the core. I have friends who play the Voltage apps on their phones. They LOVE these games and play through them twice to make different 'choices' and see the outcome (which only differ in 1-2 sentences of dialogue). It pains me to see them wasting their time. But if they're enjoying it, I suppose its fine.

As someone who is writing a VN based on a personal experience and writing for impact rather than profit, that's all that I can ask for of others. The goal should be to provoke your audience into feeling whatever emotion you want them to. Make them feel ALL THE FEELZ. That is a DO. :P

This falls under what was already mentioned, however, so many Otome games (particularly those developed overseas) have the protagonist as a... well basically as a Bella, please don't make the protagonist someone that is supposed to be relateable to everyone, because that's just impossible. Make a character that you want to create.

Ah... I need to stop I'm just so passionate about these sorts of things! ^^;

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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#29 Post by Lesleigh63 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:59 am

YossarianIII wrote:Don't: Quit.
I like this one. I see too many people who try and then seem to give up although they've had some modicum of success. It's like if things don't go 100% the way they envision - it's a lost cause (can't they modify what they do have and put out something eventually?). Maybe I'm just being naive.
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Re: What are some Do's or Don'ts in your opinion?

#30 Post by namastaii » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:57 am

DrivenByTheWind wrote:
trooper6 wrote:
namastaii wrote:Hahaha I totally thought it was satire. XD I see. Yeah, I do believe everyone should do stuff not based on what they think people like lol Variety is more interesting. Unique is more interesting.
And honestly, it is one of my biggest pet peeves. There are, IMO, way too many VNs that are following the conventional wisdom of what is supposed to be good. And it gets boring. Show me something I haven't seen already!
Voltage games make me shudder. While Voltage is a capable company and they produce MANY VNs... that is their downfall; they are capable and they produce MANY VNs--all of which follow a cookie cutter design and play-through that they refuse to deviate from. It just... *sigh* it frustrates me to the core. I have friends who play the Voltage apps on their phones. They LOVE these games and play through them twice to make different 'choices' and see the outcome (which only differ in 1-2 sentences of dialogue). It pains me to see them wasting their time. But if they're enjoying it, I suppose its fine.

As someone who is writing a VN based on a personal experience and writing for impact rather than profit, that's all that I can ask for of others. The goal should be to provoke your audience into feeling whatever emotion you want them to. Make them feel ALL THE FEELZ. That is a DO. :P

This falls under what was already mentioned, however, so many Otome games (particularly those developed overseas) have the protagonist as a... well basically as a Bella, please don't make the protagonist someone that is supposed to be relateable to everyone, because that's just impossible. Make a character that you want to create.

Ah... I need to stop I'm just so passionate about these sorts of things! ^^;
Who creates those 'Shall We Date' games? Are those from Voltage? Because I feel like you just described Shall We Date VNs. lool

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