A lesson in Price vs Value

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Harliqueen
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A lesson in Price vs Value

#1 Post by Harliqueen » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:18 am

Normally, I'm able to brush off most things that annoy me. Keeping positive is the way forwards!

But, today, I had a bit of an eye opener when it comes to pricing commercial indie games/visual novels.

I went out with my friend to a coffee shop, nice place, and he was saying how he wouldn't buy indie games that were over $10. Even if they really interested him, and had great design, etc, he didn't think it was worth it, and even then he usually only gets them in the sales.

He then proceeded to buy a large coffee, a sandwich, and a piece of cake that totaled around $15 (I'm guesstimating as it was I'm from UK and it came to about £12).

Without a second thought he spent more on his brunch (which lasted him a whole 15 mins and took about 5 mins to prepare) than he was willing to pay for a game that someone had probably spent months/years pouring their heart into, and would last him much longer than that sandwich.

It's the same with books- I've seen people put down a book at a store after seeing the price, then hop over the road and buy a Big Mac and dessert for the same amount.

Now, I'm not saying everyone should go around charging a fortune for their games :D But, I was wondering why people are willing to pay so much for so little, but then bulk at the idea of spending the same amount on something which they will have forever and most likely bring them a good amount of fun?

TL;DR- Why do people pay a fortune for coffee, but are wary of spending the same on an indie game?
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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#2 Post by Jae » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:07 am

Apples and oranges.

Value. Risks. Personal mood at the time. They all factor in.

But for the sake of comparing, you need food and drinks to keep yourself alive, but games won't do that.

In addition, games typically don't end that quickly. For food, you eat, you enjoy it, you move on. You know exactly what you're paying for and you know exactly what the results will be like. No risk.

For games, you play, you play, you hope it's a fun ride the entire way through without it risking to become a burden to finish. You may not know beforehand how you'll feel afterward. You simply won't know until you play through it all the way or spoil it magnificently by reading and watching everything about it beforehand. Personally, at that point, I don't even know what's the point in making the purchase.

I rarely buy games in general (my iPhone has zero games on it; haven't installed a game, free or paid, on my phone in close to 7 years). All simply because I spend much of my time doing other things.

PC and console games I rarely purchase unless it's due to:

1. Raving reviews and it's a social injustice for me to not at least try it out.
2. Peer pressure from friends.
3. Research purposes.

Visual novels I may sometimes buy/download simply because I want to check out other authors' voices in that medium,. I want to know how they write, choose their words, and construct their stories. I want to see what they did to achieve effects. I watch movies for similar reasons. Really sinking deep into why a director chose to portray a scene a certain way. Why would alternatives get cut? What's his message?

Then again, I'll gladly pay $100 for a nice seat in a baseball stadium, spend another $40 on food and drinks, and watch a 3-hour ballgame. Again, different values, different levels of risks you take for what you're engaging, different moods at different times.

I paid $60 for The Witcher III and put in about four hours of gameplay into it. It's not a bad game. It's got great reviews. But I personally bought it because I wanted to study the narratives and direction. Within the first binge playthrough I felt I got my money's worth already and learned what I wanted. I might go back to it another day, but I feel I can get more value out of my time doing something else in the meantime.

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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#3 Post by SundownKid » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:16 am

Well, it could just be that he has a large backlog of games that he is interested in. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he thinks indie games are objectively worthless, rather than just not *necessary* to spend money on.

If he does think they are not worth that much, it is totally his prerogative. If the developer never puts it below $10, it's also their prerogative. As long as it isn't piracy, they can ascribe whatever value they want to it.

I do think however that bundles are a highly destructive trend in indie games and a race to the bottom. Nintendo has demonstrated that if a game is good enough, people will buy it at full price forever and ever and ever.

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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#4 Post by Harliqueen » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:00 am

@ Jae- You're totally right, I never thought of it that way. With things such as nice food, you know what you are paying for upfront. It will be a nice experience with no risk. Where as buying something unknown is definitely always riskier.

@ sundownkid - Having a few hours to step back from the moment, I can see clearer what he was getting at. Everyone places their own values to certain things. I would never pay that much for coffee and lunch, but then I have a lot less money so put value on things much differently :D
You're right, it is about how different people view different things!

I guess I got so emotional about it because I am close to the subject, what with wanting to sell VNs myself. It's good to be able to see others viewpoints on it and broaden the perspective of a topic :)
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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#5 Post by Aviala » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:45 am

Hmm, now that you mention this it made me think. I very rarely buy games that cost over 10 USD but I sometimes buy pizza for 10 Usd. It's really strange because I'd definitely like to be paid more than that per game once I release something...

I think it's partly because my Steam library is full of games I never have time to play. Buying any new ones, especially expensive ones, seems silly; there's no guarantee I'll ever play this game either so I don't want to spend more than a few dollars on it.

Also, the point about food being a necessity is pretty spot on. Plus it's much easier and painless to go to that nearby Subway restaurant than cook something, even if it is way more expensive. You're not paying for just the food but the service also; the convinience.

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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#6 Post by Kate » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:31 pm

$20 is personally my magic number. It's the final resting price of Sims 3 games/add-ons (which I invest quite a bit in) and the average price of a decent computer game. Nancy Drew's are usually in that ballpark too.

It personally depends on my interest in the game. There was this game, Garnet Cradle, that really caught my attention. http://vndb.org/v1739 But it retails for about $90 USD and it's only for PSP as far as I know :shock: That may be worth it to some players; but that is like, better than a 1/3 of what I make in a good month and I've got college bills. So I'll not be able to play this for a few years.... However, in the meantime, The Royal Trap is at the top of my list with Pirate Mermaid close behind. :) http://www.hanakogames.com/royaltrap.shtml ------- http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... te+mermaid

I admit to spending more on Skyrim. But it was less than a year out and it was about $30. TOTALLY WORTH IT. But it was even better to purchase the full game and add-ons for $20 at the store a few years after release. So I have two PS3 copies lol. Worth it!

Honestly? $10-20 is the magic range. But you have to make people drool and dream of your game if you want to charge any upper prices. This is precisely why I'm eating the front cost of releasing my game with one free route, in an attempt to lure people to my game and enjoy it so much they'll want more mystery routes. :) Press and publicity can be everything.
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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#7 Post by Kuiper » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:33 am

Harliqueen wrote:TL;DR- Why do people pay a fortune for coffee, but are wary of spending the same on an indie game?
What you are describing is price sensitivity. There are some places where people are price-sensitive (e.g. having a fixed budget for games), and other prices where they may be price insensitive (in this case, buying edibles).

Applying the intellectual rigor of deciding the cost-benefit of each purchase is mentally taxing. People want to have the freedom to make impulse buys. When they swipe their card to buy coffee, they want to be focused on the pleasant sensations their coffee provides, not the reduction it is making to their bank balance. The same is true for a trading card enthusiast buying a pack of Magic: The Gathering cards, or a fashionista buying a new accessory, or a indie game enthusiast buying a new Steam release. In part, they buy these things for the utility, but in large part they buy these things because of the positive emotions that they connect with them. A Magic player might by playing cards partly with the intellectual consideration that "collecting these cards will allow me to build a deck that I can play in a tournament, which is an entertaining way to spend a Saturday with my friends," but there is also something about the tactile feeling of cracking open the foil wrapper on a pack of cards that excites him. In that moment, the collector's thoughts can be consumed with thoughts like "This could be a really rare card! I wonder what I'll get?" It can be an emotional rush, but that emotional rush can quickly vanish if his thoughts are filled with, "by cracking open this foil wrapper, I'm burning $3." By the same token, if I want to enjoy a piece of cake, I can't allow myself to think, "based on the cost per slice of this cake, that bite cost me 80 cents." I need to shut off that part of my brain in order to enjoy the cake.

Food is one of the most common places for people tend to be price insensitive, in large part because it's based on a very primal and biological urge, and also partially because it's an area that has a built-in cap on spending. (Assuming that I have a lifestyle that limits the amount I can spend per meal to a sane sum, there is a finite limit to the amount of money I can spend on food, simply because there is a finite limit to the number of calories I consume per day.)

(Incidentally, another reason that I choose to be price insensitive with my food spending is that I consider healthfulness a more important factor to optimize for than price. This allows me to easily pass up the $1 McDonalds hamburger for a $6 salad. Although not everyone looks at food the same way, for most people, there's a good chance that between healthfulness, convenience, and enjoyment, there is some factor that they prioritize above price. Otherwise, they'd be on the rice-and-beans diet.)

The thing is, if you're price-insensitive about everything, it's easy for your spending to quickly spiral out of control. So most people tend to pick one or two areas of their life where they choose to be relatively price insensitive, so that they can indulge in a hobby passionately and get full enjoyment out of it, but they reel in their spending other places. This is why you have people who will balk over the price of a $1 iPhone app after they impulsively bought a $1 candy bar at the checkout line, or people who will complain about the price of eggs going up by 20 cents when they just spent $200 on a dress.

Some purchases are based on an intellectual cost-benefit analysis, but others are simply based on impulse and emotion, and one purchase could mean different things to different people. For someone who is very conscientious about their food spending, the decision of what to order at a restaurant (or the decision to not eat out at all and just pack a lunch or eat at home instead) could be made in a dispassionate fashion, and thus the $15 meal and the $10 game would be categorically the same. However, not everyone operates with that mindset, and so they are free to spend $15 of their "emotional" budget on the meal, while they balk at spending $10 out of their "logical" budget.
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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#8 Post by Harliqueen » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:15 am

@Aviala- I think convenience does have a lot to do with. He managed to buy a sandwich, coffee and, piece of cake in 2 minutes, but to make that would have taken much longer (and much more tidying up! :D ). So, I think that is a big factor in these things too.

And, don't worry, I don't think anyone will think twice about buying your games- your stuff is incredible!

@Kate - I guess everyone has thier own magic number :D It's about finding the right price that suits everyone's budget when selling, I suppose. (I have a couple of copies of Skyrim too, it was very worth it!).

@Kuiper - Wow, I didn't know it had an actual scientific name, though I suppose I should have guessed as most things do :D Thank you for explaining it, it actually makes a lot more sense how people view their purchases after reading that. I started looking at the things I am price-insensitive about, and they probably wouldn't seem a good idea to others!

Though it does make me wonder if people are more likely to buy a physical object over a digital one, as they get that instant satisfaction from holding it? (As you say, an actual pack of cards feels nice to own!).
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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#9 Post by Tempus » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:47 am

What's been said so far about food being a need vs a game being a want is good. I'll add that there's additional psychological forces in play for in-person purchases that aren't present in online marketplaces like Steam. For example, if you're hungry and decide to go into a takeout place and get served quickly you don't have much chance to choose what to buy. Since a lot of people don't feel comfortable taking a long time to choose what to buy when the person serving them is waiting, there's going to be a higher percentage of impulse buys for stores set up like that. This is, of course, taken advantage of by the bigger takeout places like McDonald's, KFC, etc. I haven't been into one for a few years, but I'm sure they still emphasise certain menu items over others on the menu. I'll get back to this point.

A lot of products made by big companies (Adobe, Apple, etc.) aren't actually created to sell lots. Instead, they're a marketing tactic to contextualise the price of the thing they actually want to sell. (Also, note that businesses can do this entirely by accident; in those cases the market naturally selects for them even though they have no idea what they're doing.) Large companies (and it's not restricted to them but they're a good example) create price brackets for their goods. Let's say we're selling a laptop and we want to sell it for $600:
  • $600 - Laptop with charger, carry case, Windows & Microsoft Office pre-installed, and 3 year warranty.
This isn't a good product from a marketing perspective (morally [for lack of a better] it is, but marketing doesn't have anything to do with morals) to begin with, but let's make things worse and say that your research shows that people want their laptops for $500. Here's where price brackets come in. If you want more out of your market than they're currently willing to pay (obviously it can't exceed what they're able to pay) you need to manipulate their perception of prices.
  • $500 - Laptop with Windows (needs to be installed by user).
    $600 - Laptop with charger, carry case, Windows & Microsoft Office pre-installed, and 3 year warranty.
See what I've done here? It's a real dick move. Technically the laptop is available for $500 but it's a pain in the butt to have to install the OS yourself, plus I left all the peripherals in the price bracket I actually want people to buy in. Also note that the difference between the two purchases is nowhere near $100. A charger, carry case, MS Office, and a 3 year warranty would be worth way more than that. In other words most people can see that if they buy the $600 laptop they're saving a lot. Of course, they're not really saving because I'm manipulating them by juxtaposing these two prices. Paying $500 is actually a massive mark-up since it doesn't subtract all the savings I make on not having to give them the peripherals. But we can do better than this:
  • $499 - Laptop with Windows (needs to be installed by user).
    $599 - Laptop with charger, carry case, Windows & Microsoft Office pre-installed, and 3 year warranty.
    $1100 - "Gamer"* Laptop with charger, hard carry case, Windows & Microsoft Office pre-installed, wireless gamepad, and 5 year warranty.
*Quick aside: anything branded "gamer" is ripping you off. Gamer is a marketing identity that was created and sold back to you.

Let's walk through what we've got this time. First we've got our $500 price point to attract people in with "laptops for $499!" (technically not a lie)—remember this is how much people were initially willing to pay. It's a little annoying to have to install Windows and WTF am I going to charge it with? Next we've got the $600 price point and this is what we originally wanted to sell. It's got all the bells and whistles and we also made sure beforehand to price it so that we're making a decent margin. Note that I've docked $1 from each to make them $499 and $599 respectively. If you don't think this works you're dead wrong—Your mind places greater emphasis on the length of the number and the first number's value; the following digits get less attention. So now our $600 price point is being perceived as $500ish which is what the customer was originally willing to pay. This brings us to our last price point, the absurd $1100 "gamer" laptop. It serves two functions: the first is to make the other two prices seem cheaper, and the second is to make the difference of $100 between them look even smaller by introducing a comparatively large $500 gap between the mid and top price brackets. I also deliberately made it go into four digits to make it seem higher (again, length affects perceived cost; the difference between $999 and $1000 seems bigger than it is). And despite being the one who devised these prices I still look at $599 and $1100 and briefly see a difference of $600.

Obviously we'd make better margins on the $500 or $1100 price points since they're over-priced for what they offer but the problem is we can't actually sell many of them. We could put them in the middle of a new price bracket system but remember that the customer has a set of things they want which we only have limited capability to change. They at least want the charger and Windows installed so we're not going to get them to pay for the $500 product. And the $1100 one is too much—we're talking a $600 difference from what they originally wanted to pay vs. a $100 difference. Obviously the latter is easier to convince someone to pay.

Anyway, this all falls under the category of psychological pricing. It's manipulative as fuck and you should feel insulted any time you see it. Never, ever listen to the nonsense businesses say about trying to make things affordable or whatever. A company's goal (and this is mandated by law in countries like Australia and the US) is to make money. This leads to all sorts of bad shit regardless of how nice the people running the company are, and gets progressively worse the "better" they get at marketing. And... accept the fact that if you ever go into business you'd be stupid not to use it in most cases. There are exceptions, such as when having something with a high price is seen as a status symbol (Veblen goods like luxury cars, expensive watches, etc), or you're operating in a small, closed community (no need for this if you're the sole baker supplying a small town).

This is the point I was making at the end of the first paragraph. Businesses emphasise certain products over others, in part for the reasons above. SO. Why do people pay more for some things and not others? There's a lot of factors. If something is a need like food that means that at least some food suppliers will always make money. Contrast this with games. Every single game company and store could go out of business and humanity would survive. Still... I don't agree that the reason people pay more for food sometimes is because it's a need. You can still get cheaper equivalent food after all. I think marketing makes a huge difference. There may have been psychological pricing at play, and not necessarily at the place your friend bought food. Even if your friend is being 100% rational when buying food, they might not when buying on Steam. Everything I described in the pricing bracket example above plays out on a macro scale between competing business too.

Also, digital goods can be replicated indefinitely and aren't seasonal which means the prices can be dropped much, much lower provided you can capture a big enough audience. Big companies with correspondingly big audiences do this and it can work, but you can't compete on price with them if you've got a smaller audience. If big name title is selling for $5 after a few years and your tiny game that's not as polished or long is also selling for $5... what are people going to buy with limited money? Again it comes back to marketing: you simply can't compete on price. If you can't compete on one axis, switch to another like quality, or representation, etc. and emphasise that. When someone won't buy an "indie game" (itself a marketing term, as evidenced by its nebulous definiton—it has a positive connotation, but vague denotation) due to price... that's marketing gone wrong. You can't compete on price. It's your job as the developer to either change the customer's value system (convince them to value quality, integrity, etc over money) or to appeal to customers that already value what you provide (i.e., you need to find them and make it easy for them to accidentally find you.)

Look, I'll be honest with you. I'm absolutely sick of typing this and I really want to do something else now. Bye!
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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#10 Post by Jae » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:56 am

Obligatory
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I read the majority of it... not all of it, I'll admit that. Interesting stuff, though.

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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#11 Post by YossarianIII » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:09 pm

Tempus wrote: [an awesome breakdown of marketing psychology]
This is great. Makes me want to blast some Minutemen at top volume.

I was going to add something similar to what Tempus mentions at the end: a takeout place has limited competition, but when you're on the internet, you're up against everyone.

Some other digital goods $10 will get you on the internet:

*A volume of Neil Gaiman's Sandman
*60 minutes of Beyoncé
*The better half of Quentin Tarantino's filmography (via 1 month of Netflix)
*Basically any game ever (if you can wait for a major Steam sale)

And that's not even including legally free things like Rick & Morty or the majority of great pre–twentieth-century literature. Kind of overwhelming as a creator... :shock:

But as a consumer, I guess there are some benefits...

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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#12 Post by synedraacus » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:27 pm

By the way, why would player even pay ten bucks for the game when all the miracles of online piracy are a click away? Everybody makes it a question of 'Get coffee OR get the game', but it actually is not, at least here in Russia.
Say, I have three hundred roubles (~5$) and I want a game and a few beers. What I don't have is a particular respect to copyrights, so I go to the shop, get my six-pack, then visit evil-corrupt-pirate-hive dot ru and have a game as well. And also download the entire Transmetropolitan, while I'm at it. And annexing one more Eastern European peninsula because that was real fun the last time. Now, what's my stimulus for throwing out most of the goods I could've had?
VNs have it harder than other genres, because they have literally no way of making the guy above pay. We're working on the game ourselves and when we asked folks on russian boards what they think of our project, we got basically two answers. First, yes, there is an audience. Second, this audience wouldn't pay for a game they haven't played unless it's either by someone known to be great (say, N. Dybowski of Ice-Pick Lodge), or has a raving review from pretty much every site and Youtube channel.

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Re: A lesson in Price vs Value

#13 Post by YonYonYon » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:55 am

Speaking of Russia and other countries with cheaper than USD currency, 10$ is a pretty big amount of money. While for an american it might be just a cup of coffee and a sandwich, for me it's my 2 days meal. I can live a week, if I'll spend money on cheaper food. And no way I'm buying a game I have no idea about, especially if there's no demo.
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