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Currently I am thinking about crafting my first VN as a deconstruction of the Girl Chases Boy genre (GxB). It is, of course, going to be comedic with absurd, surreal, oftiimes cheap sight gags. The problem I have been having (besides teaching myself how to draw, create sound, make music, and write something that may be a little more than a random selection of words with a period at the end - which is difficult for me since I am near legally blind, tone deaf, and having a penchant for my sentences to keep going and going - only separated by dashes and quaint braces as if I am coding a function - only resuming my main points more or less when I feel like it) has been my total and complete lack of genre exposure.

So I have decided to ask anyone who cares to answer:

What makes, in your mind, a typical GxB VN?

In my mind, the foundation of such stories is desperation: The G is desperate to gain B for some nefarious purpose better left unsaid.

I would appreciate anyone who has any experience in the VN community (or anyone who has ever actually persued a boy and caught them) to respond, expound, and explain.

Thank you in advance!
-MWG

Maybe I'm answering this wrong and you are ONLY looking for chasing scenarios, but...I wouldn't say GxB necessarily HAS to do with pursuit - (except for maybe the player's (not MC's) ambition to touch some butts). I actually think most of the GxB I've played revolve more around the MC (G) being thrown into a situation with B or Bs (Harem), and she just has to deal with it. GxB is usually aimed at females audiences, and it would be off-putting for most, I think to play with some 'nefarious' goal in mind. More often, it seems that GxB goes about trying to get a guys attention by proving how pretty/nice/clever/etc. she is. Less chase and more...trap?

What is a "typical" GxB VN? The girl is very cute, intelligent, and has one hobby she's really good at like music or art. But she's seldom confident. Then either by random chance, or going to the same job/school as all these boys, a diverse range of guys suddenly fall for her during their various interactions (that she rarely initiates on her own). Now she's conflicted about which guy she's actually in "love" with, despite the short time of knowing each other.

They always fall under a few archetypes/cliches. The funny guy, the playboy, the intelligent guy, the athletic guy, the rebellious guy, the sophisticated guy, and of course, the childhood friend. And the guys usually look very feminine, or "pretty boys."

The girl rarely tries to seduce the guys, or initiate conversation to flirt with them. She just acts her normal, cute self, and the guys always say something along this line: "there's something special about her."

It's wish fulfillment for girls, like harems are wish fulfillment for boys. You act your ordinary self without being super attractive or having a strong personality. And these idealized versions of the opposite sex are suddenly attracted to you for unknown reasons.

But this is a "typical" GxB VN. It's written by people doing fan service/wish fulfillment, or people who have absolutely no idea how dating really works. It's always one or the other.

These games don't show girls how to get boyfriends. They don't teach how to have social skills, initiate conversation, or have confidence. Basically, as long as you're pretty and act you're ordinary self (emphasis on being ordinary) guys from all walks of life will suddenly crave you.

This is just what I've seen from one too many successful dating games, that like a lot of anime-style stories, seldom resemble reality. They don't really try to capture what life is really like, and if they try, I've yet to see a good job at it, honestly.

Look up, "anime archetypes," sometime. The fact that anime fans can so easily and accurately categorize so many anime characters, that are supposed to be so unique, is both hilarious and a little sad.

That's my observation/experience/tiny rant. So don't take what I say too seriously, lol.

Hey there! I've given your OP a read over and I actually have a question for you:

What makes, in your mind, a typical GxB VN?

You said that you have "total and complete lack of genre exposure.", and in my own experience, it's usually a good idea to get your own grip on a genre before you start to have a go at writing it. Would you like me to provide some recommendations for GxB games so you can come up with your own conclusions on how to deconstruct it?

mediawriterdude wrote: In my mind, the foundation of such stories is desperation: The G is desperate to gain B for some nefarious purpose better left unsaid.

-MWG

This rings more truth in the BxG genre, where occasionally you'll get 'gotta sleazebag 'em all' MCs. If we're discussing the absolute typical GxB JVN, the foundation is closer to 'being discovered'. The MC is usually a normal, somewhat mediocre character who finds herself getting attention from guys she meet who 'notices her for the first time'. More often than not the MC is confused/shy, and has no agenda beyond baking a lot of cookies for guys.

Zylinder wrote:
This rings more truth in the BxG genre, where occasionally you'll get 'gotta sleazebag 'em all' MCs. If we're discussing the absolute typical GxB JVN, the foundation is closer to 'being discovered'. The MC is usually a normal, somewhat mediocre character who finds herself getting attention from guys she meet who 'notices her for the first time'. More often than not the MC is confused/shy, and has no agenda beyond baking a lot of cookies for guys.

Lol, that last sentence was so true and funny.

Rinima wrote:Hey there! I've given your OP a read over and I actually have a question for you:

What makes, in your mind, a typical GxB VN?

You said that you have "total and complete lack of genre exposure.", and in my own experience, it's usually a good idea to get your own grip on a genre before you start to have a go at writing it. Would you like me to provide some recommendations for GxB games so you can come up with your own conclusions on how to deconstruct it?

I agree with Rinima. If you want to deconstruct something I think you have to immerse yourself in the genre first. You need to know how to construct if before you can deconstruct it.

But there is another reason I think you should play lots of GxB for yourself--which is also implied by Rinima's last quote. What will make your deconstruction interesting is if it represents your unique vision of the construction of GxB. I don't really play romance games for the most part (my exceptions were Magical Diary...which I didn't play as a romance the first time through, and Coming Out on Top)...but I have seen my share of romantic comedies...and I don't generally like romantic comedies at all. (I like romantic dramas though).

But my reasons for disliking romantic comedies comes from who I am and my view of the world. My deconstruction of romantic comedies should be based on what I see as the thing needing deconstructing. For example, many people are irritated by a female MC that is too passive and boring. They would probably work on deconstructing that. I'm less bothered by that than by what I see as a romanticization of abuse. What is presented as something romantic I see as abusive and nothing that should be portrayed as ideal. So my deconstruction would focus on that...but I don't actually need to do that deconstruction because Magical Diary already did that (I love Magical Diary). So I might go and look for something else that might be in need of deconstruction in that genre. But I can't have people tell me...I have to do that work myself. I'd probably go with my constant irritation that many romantic comedies reinforce the idea that men and women can't be friends. I hate that. So maybe I'd deconstruct that. Someone else might be upset with the sexual fetishization of innocence. Someone else might feel the lack of racial diversity needs deconstructing. Someone else might feel that the reinforcement of outmoded gender norms needs deconstructing. Whatever. But it should be unique to your view of the genre.

I agree with some of the others, you need to backtrack a little because you are putting the cart before the horse. This is a matter of not breaking the rules until you know the rules.

I suggest playing a whole bunch of otome games, and if you can't play them for whatever reason, at least reading up the synopsis of quite a few. i think that while you will find a lot of common threads, you will find a lot of deviation from the patterns as well. Take Sweet Fuse for instance, where you play as a smart and outspoken protagonist. I think the 'typical' otome game doesn't exist nearly as frequently as people make it out to.

I then recommend you play through some games that are already deconstructions. I'm thinking less ones that outright mock the genre, rather ones that play with perceptions and stereotypes. Hatoful Boyfriend for me is hands down the best example. It has the full range of archtypes from best friend to playboy to teacher and then promptly punches you in the face with where the story goes, and I'm not talking about the fact that they are all birds. We did a clumsier version a bit back with Ristorante Amore.

Deconstruction of otome games is fairly common (sometimes more common than straight forward versions somehow) so I think it's important for you to understand what these are and where they are coming from if you are planning on doing your own as well

Good luck! It's a fun topic so I hope you enjoy it.

Auro-Cyanide wrote:I agree with some of the others, you need to backtrack a little because you are putting the cart before the horse. This is a matter of not breaking the rules until you know the rules... Deconstruction of otome games is fairly common (sometimes more common than straight forward versions somehow) so I think it's important for you to understand what these are and where they are coming from if you are planning on doing your own as well

It's not easy to write a parody or a genre deconstruction. If you're not very familiar with a specific type of story, then your attempt to parody/deconstruct it will likely come across as superficial. Let's say you wanted to deconstruct 1990s girls' comics. If the only stories that you know are Sailor Moon, Fushigi Yugi, and Rayearth, then you might be able to create a few relevant jokes. However, those three titles don't represent everything that was notable about '90s shoujo. You might be surprised to learn what Basara did differently, and how much the Utena franchise shook up the category.

Writing a sincere story is also difficult. Sometimes, you want to create fiction that's sober and bleak, or stories that are intentionally ridiculous. Challenge yourself. Think about what you already enjoy, and what sort of stories you want to create. If you need to do some research before writing, that's fine. Just make sure that your VN comes across as a story rather than a term paper.

mediawriterdude wrote: It is, of course, going to be comedic with absurd, surreal, oftiimes cheap sight gags.

Please don't do this.

For one, it's been done, and it's generally not funny more than once.

For another, as previously mentioned, a meaningful deconstruction or parody requires a deep understanding of the subject at hand. If you have only superficial knowledge of it and try to make a 'funny' commentary? It will almost certainly come across as straight-out-insulting.

mediawriterdude wrote: What makes, in your mind, a typical GxB VN?

In my mind, the foundation of such stories is desperation: The G is desperate to gain B for some nefarious purpose better left unsaid.

Again, it's already been pointed out that this is the complete opposite of the way girls in these games are typically written.

Now, by that standard, it would be possible to make a funny commentary on the games by writing a girl who actually IS desperate for a boyfriend and is going around enacting all sorts of otome cuteness intentionally to try and trick boys into loving her. However, you need to play enough games to know what those bits of otome cuteness are first.

Knowing nothing about them, but jumping straight in with the idea that they're probably dumb and it'll be easy to make fun of them, isn't exactly a promising start.

I wish to thank everyone who posted: for their ideas, comments, and commentary. I believed my post would be hardly noticed, but I was completely wrong (as usual). Just to let everyone know: I attempted using my bleak and weak anglo-nordic humor to lighten the mood. Unfortuantely, my attempt was taken at face value: $1.35 + VAT.

So, just to exacerbate my position (my bleak and weak humour again!):
I am old. Very old. So old, my first anime was Gigantor (Tetsujin 28 for those otaku amongst us - you know who you are!). So, I have been exposed to much anime (back then, english-speaking otaku called them CARTOONS, an english word meaning ANIME). It was only during the mid-1980s that I found out the connection to Japan. Eventually, I played my first Visual Novel circa 1996 thanks to the usenet newsgroup: alt.japan.hentai.scat.games.virus.fans . It was thanks to them I became hooked on games featuring sharp stills of young 18+ japanese schoolgirls splayed seductively all over the screen (a hallmark of modern-post-1980s japanese anime action scenes - see any episode of Sailor Moon for examples). After what seemed like a lifetime of work, relationships, and betrayal, I finally gained some time on my hands and checked out a site recommending FREE games. And it brought me here. So, I immediately downloaded as many as I could within 6 hours and played them all within 21.78 minutes. So I decided I could probably create something akin to embarrassing myself, my friends, and my family name and downloaded Ren'py, Gimp, LMMMS, a pdf on how to draw a stickman, and lots of alchohol to create a serious VN about authority and the systematic abuses of society...

...but it made me depressed.

So, I thought to cheer myself up by doing something so insanely stupid, no one would recognize it as the subversive, mindaltering tripe it actually is. After designing the overall structure of my struct(s), I then posted the above that started all this.
(While this reply does not actually expound in any way on my exposure to, or my intellectual insight on the current post-modern japanese otome developer mindset, I believe it does define enough of my background and intentions on my current project. The fact that the usual suspects, erm, I mean regular posters here have replied en mass has left me both speechless and mindblown. A perfect mental-state for any reply on any forum on the internet.)

So, on to the specifics of everyone's posts:

quiltedcorgi stated:
"1) I actually think most of the GxB I've played revolve more around the MC (G) being thrown into a situation with B or Bs (Harem), and she just has to deal with it.
...
2) More often, it seems that GxB goes about trying to get a guys attention by proving how pretty/nice/clever/etc. she is. Less chase and more...trap?"

1) After consulting professional otakus from Hakihabara, A harem is no less than 4. So, 4 boys minimum.
2) I understand completely. Make the girl chasing the boys a trap. Great plot-twist for the transgender crowd! Love it!

HiddenCreature opined:
"1) The girl is very cute, intelligent, and has one hobby she's really good at like music or art. But she's seldom confident. Then either by random chance, or going to the same job/school as all these boys...
2) It's written by people doing fan service/wish fulfillment, or people who have absolutely no idea how dating really works. It's always one or the other. These games don't show girls how to get boyfriends. They don't teach how to have social skills, initiate conversation, or have confidence. Basically, as long as you're pretty and act you're ordinary self (emphasis on being ordinary) guys from all walks of life will suddenly crave you.
3) Look up, "anime archetypes," sometime."

1) Gotcha. a Mary-sue with a fatal flaw. Don't like it. But random chances are good: I get to use python's random number generator to determine the ending the player gets! Thanks!
2) This is perfect! I can actually use this against the player in a weaponized form! (I myself being a complete misanthrope and b*st*rd...) THIS IS PERFECT!! :*
3) Oh, you mean the seven deadly dares, erm, I mean deres! Yeah. It was... obvious yet strangely entertaining on TVTropes. Thanks tho!

(PS: "That's my observation/experience/tiny rant. So don't take what I say too seriously, lol." And if anyone takes me seriously, I will find them and bite them hard on the heinie! LoL! )


Rinima said, in a matter of fact tone:
"You said that you have "total and complete lack of genre exposure.", and in my own experience, it's usually a good idea to get your own grip on a genre before you start to have a go at writing it."
I was joking. Just as I am now when I say: Getting a grip on a genre?... Well, I've got hentai covered then!

"Would you like me to provide some recommendations for GxB games so you can come up with your own conclusions on how to deconstruct it?"
If it's free, on sale, or made by anyone here, GIMME GIMME GIMME! I'd love recommendations!


Zylinder awsomely deduced:
"ivii) where occasionally you'll get 'gotta sleazebag 'em all' MCs." Poke-you-man. Yes. I saw an episode of this one. What the hell IS a mudsquirt anyway?? Scat?

"1. The MC is usually a normal, somewhat mediocre character who finds herself getting attention from guys she meet who 'notices her for the first time'. More often than not the MC is confused/shy, and has no agenda beyond baking a lot of cookies for guys."
1. Beyond the obvious misogyny of women in the kitchen cooking for yucky-gross rapist-pigmen, I like what you said. I think it rings true for much of the otome gaming audience: 40+ year old men pretending to be 16 year old girls on irc, who want to know what it's like to be womanly and a winner! I'm going to use this, since I AM my own primary audience and this fits me to a T!... except for being on irc. I never did that. Not once. Not even twice!


HiddenCreature dressed up and incognito implied:
"Lol, that last sentence was so true and funny."
Obviously, you were not responding to me: I never tell the truth and seldom funny, except to myself. And to me, that's good enough.


Cirrocumulus-Cloud floated over and whispered:
I am not going to quote you, nor have fun with it. I think what you wrote is much too intelligent, logical, and insightful for me to even...
amnesia?...
PERFECT! It's now in the design docs! :*
Now whenever someone exposes her inadequecies, she can respond with: "I don't remember what I did. I have amnesia."
You, <place gender-neutral-pronoun-prefered here>, are a GENIUS! I would marry you right this second if I believed in unity amongst anyone! (marriage is a good tax dodge tho!) :*
"Storm Lovers KAI" - I'll look into this one if it's free or on sale for 100% off. I'm poor - both in wallet AND spirit. And health. And manners. And sexual adequecy. Good thing we didn't get married now, eh? (Still a good tax dodge, tho!)



trooper6, thinking he was in Lynn, screamed:
"a. I agree with Rinima."
a. Obviously, your first mistake. As I explained to Rinima, I was JOKING. By listening, you missed it. Stop working on that tenure thing, and laugh a little. It helps.

"33.33) But there is another reason I think you should play lots of GxB for yourself--"
33.33) I'm not listening! *Fingers in ears* LALALALALALA

"ibid. But my reasons for disliking romantic comedies comes from who I am and my view of the world."
ib... (nevermind) Oh... Another misanthropic New Englander. How am I NOT surprised! If we ever met, we would probably feel about each other as we do when we talk to the bulk of humanity: a sense of hopelessness and dread coupled with an overinfalted sense of ego and lots of fustration about the tolls on the Mass Pike, realizing it would do neither of us any good for either one to judge the other. But we'd do it anyway. The favourite past time of anyone who has ever driven east of the 128 Metro west line and lived to tell about it. It's in our blood and heritage. It's what makes us despised and mistrusted by the rest of the world and parts of Reading. It's what makes us happy. Damn. Now I'm beginning to like you. Go away! You'll spoil my pre-winter New England melancholia!

"For example, many people are irritated by a female MC that is too passive and boring. They would probably work on deconstructing that. I'm less bothered by that than by what I see as a romanticization of abuse."
It is said, by those who know much more about this than myself, that true ART creates emotion in the observer. Even if that emotion is negative, only true ART can elevate that above something or other, and blab blab blab. So, with that in mind... The girl should not be passive or boring. Abusive would be neither. But abusive to whom, or to what. That's the tricky part. I gotta think about this one. (Perhaps she is abusive to anyone who is misanthropic perhaps? Perhaps. Per, haps. Hapsburg. She is abusive to anyone related to the Hapsburgs! GOT IT! Thank you! :* )

"...is presented as something romantic I see as abusive and nothing that should be portrayed as ideal. So my deconstruction would focus on that...but I don't actually need to do that deconstruction because Magical Diary already did that (I love Magical Diary)."
Is that anything like that horror movie where they kidnap people and milk them?... I don't like that kind of thing. Mostly because it was low-budget, cheap, and they never really showed you anything. Made me mad. I liked the Philidelphia Story though. Great romantic comedy! Loved Jimmy Stewart, Carey Grant, and whats-her-face. Really funny to see her drunk. Would make a great love triangle VN!

"I'd probably go with my constant irritation that many romantic comedies reinforce the idea that men and women can't be friends. I hate that."
Then may I suggest a film, it's very old, but it may be what you are attempting to find: The Seven Year Itch. About expectaion and reality. Where a man who is thinking about cheating on his wife with his new upstairs neighbor, finds that his fantasies have nothing to do with reality, and they both agree to just be friends in the end as he rushes off to join his wife on vacation. Stars Tom Ewell, and Marilyn Monroe.Directed by Billy Wilder, 1955. I love Billy Wilder. You may also be interested in his other films: The Apartment, Some Like It Hot (both comedies), and Double Indemnity (a very nasty film noir - but one of the best).

Thank you for your thoughtful answers though. I do appreciate them, even though I am trying to appear confident, flippant, intelligent, and ignorant all at the same time. The latter is easy for me, though!



Auro-Cyanide scolded:
"I agree with some of the others, you need to backtrack a little because you are putting the cart before the horse. This is a matter of not breaking the rules until you know the rules."
Rules?... RULES???... Where are they?? I'll snap 'em in half!!! What the hell do you know, any-

AURO-CYANIDE??!!

Your that person who with that other person makes those fantastic VNs everyone raves about but no one will admit to actually playing! I'll tell you the truth, I was thinking about putting a nod to you guys in my VN. I'll contact you on that once I have the gag all settled in! I've actually never played any of your VNs though. I'm much too poor to afford a personality, let alone something I don't really need but want desperately. Like a personality. Alright. I will be serious to you from now on to show my Aussie cousins my respect:

"I then recommend you play through some games that are already deconstructions. I'm thinking less ones that outright mock the genre, rather ones that play with perceptions and stereotypes."
Damn.

"Hatoful Boyfriend for me is hands down the best example. It has the full range of archtypes from best friend to playboy to teacher and then promptly punches you in the face with where the story goes, and I'm not talking about the fact that they are all birds."
Reminds me of that old famous painting where a woman is making it with a crane or pelican or something. Never liked that painting. So, I didn't bother buying the game it's based on. I did buy Long Live The Queen, but that's more DxG (Death chases Girl) than anything else. Played the hell out of it though. Can't wait for Black Closet to go on sale. Seriously, I really should have bought Hatfullof Boyfriends. My cousin dared me, but I was determined to find Princess Maker on Gog.com. I bought FTL, LLTQ, and Zafehouse Diaries - all on sale at a stupendously high price. I think I paid nearly $12 for all three. Got a cool Point-and-Click adventure game for free though, so it was like paying $3 for all four. Five if you count Akalabeth. It was free. Hated it. I was jipped and ripped off on that one! I couldn't really afford any of it and I've been broke since. I mean, I have thousands, but I'm not paying the capital gains tax on any of it, which is why I'll never sell. I'll wait for my stock to go to $0 and get the tax dodge. BTW, Wanna get married? (Another great tax dodge! )


gekiganwing slapped me across the face with an albatross, and blurted:
"Writing a sincere story is also difficult. Sometimes, you want to create fiction that's sober and bleak, or stories that are intentionally ridiculous. Challenge yourself."
A teacher once told me I was challenged, so I doubt it would be difficult for me. I'm currently trying to attain SPECIAL status, but I'm not sure which stat to raise.
If it helps, I once bought an Art Buchwald book. Didn't read it, but I bought it. That's more than most of the reviewers in New York who raved about it did. Would that help?

"If you need to do some research before writing, that's fine. Just make sure that your VN comes across as a story rather than a term paper."
It's been decades since I wrote a term paper. I'm not even sure what constitutes one anymore... Is it one of those things where you sign your name and talk about a book you didn't read but memorized a few Cliff Notes factiods on? If so, I was usually sick during those days and didn't attend. I am, however, planning on writing the story in someone else's famous style, so... If it reads like a term paper, I'll email them and let them know! (I am serious about this. I'd tell you the style, but you would never have heard of it. It'll be a nice surprise, I guarentee! I doubt anyone else has ever wrote in that style either. The person to blame never wrote again. Pity. I loved The Eye of Argon! :'( )

And that's it for this round, folks! Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but without a dedicated internet connection I had to write this all in notpad the night before. So, feel free to keep posting - I'll catch up with everyone as much as possible!
Fnord.
-MWD

Dear mediawriterdude,
I will not quote your post...but I read all of it.
I have only two things to say:
1) I love Billy Wilder
2) I also love you!

I would again like to thank everyone who took the time to post, and currently I have been sick so I have been taking this time to think seriously about all the posts.

For many, the concern seems to be if my project will offend some. I wish for everyone to understand: Comedy usually will, in particular those who take life and themselves too seriously. Yet, my intent is to provide an entertainment, not to change the world. If that is too much for some to take, so be it. Yet, in the end, if this makes ONE person smile, I will consider the project a success.

So, for those who are about to cry, we dilute you. (And if you have no idea what that means, laugh a little more often - instead of raging against a cruel, uncaring world. "For I looked into the abyss, and saw a cartoon. And the world became the cartoon, and I laughed." -Fred Kneechee, PhD. B.S.)

- MWD