On Moe-Moe

[mikey]

...moe is indeed one sided. However, it shall be the job of a visual novel writer to make the reader believe this is not true.

Agreed (for the VN writer who will want to include moe in his work)... and...

But to answer your original question, moe is nothing compared to love. The desire for love is the power source from which the cogs of moe are spun. Without love, moe would not be possible, but without moe, love would still be possible.

... agreed!

Except that maybe I wouldn't say it's nothing compared to love. It's really different (and linked as you said, probably even both ways - that real love is kept up by the desire to be perfect, and moe is kept up by the desire to be real) and as I said in the previous post, I think it's perfectly possible to live both kinds of affection in parallel, if you're not obsessing over either one - since obsession is just the illusion of a more powerful feeling (at least for me), and in general it's a bit nonsensical to compare "who loves more", since the affection is always tied to the specific people and unique for them, since every person is unique.

[rocket]

Moé!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could I possibly have overlooked this topic for so long? How could I have let it lie fallow? For nothing could be dearer to my heart (or closer to the core of Anime culture) than this very subject! Indeed it was the desire to fully understand Moé that led me to consume and eventually create my own VNs...

Well, hopefully not too late, I shall jump into the fray!

First off, bravo Samu-kun! Nice essay, clearly heartfelt, and well argued. I was very much struck by your keen observation that,

Otakus are fragile creatures, filled with disappointments, regrets, and sorrows. They are neither the strong nor the powerful, nor do they desire for such things. And above all, they wish for intimacy, not obedience.

I personally think that most defenses of Moé have not convincingly answered the charges of sexism (and specifically marginalization of women) in a convincing way. But I think that is in large part because of their refusal to confess what you have just done. I think you're onto something important here. Something that most Otaku would not readily confess because it runs counter to nominal notions of masculinity.

The argument traditionally goes something like "Moé is a demeaning objectification of women," with the implication that "Moé is a demeaning objectification of women by insecure weak men, who want to be dominating ubermensch! (forgive lack of umlauts)." This is followed by the ritual stoning of the ubermensch (joke).

The traditional defense of Moé focuses on denial of the charges of objectification (and/or demeaning).

Samu-kun I think you've taken an entirely different tack. First of all you attack the implicit charge of pig-headed macho-monster-man with an observation that takes the starch out of it. And once the demon of totalitarian patriarchal oppression is out of the room, you get a chance to expand on the subtle distinction between 'objectifying' and 'idealizing'. Obviously the Moé character is not realistic (sorry, naturalistic). But in the realm of representation there is a difference between a caricature on a bathroom wall and a Greek Orthodox ikon. Caricature and and ideal. The line may be fuzzy, and often times intent makes the difference, which brings us back to the original insight.

If I might paraphrase, "Moé is an abstraction (*cough* which makes the feminine/female accessible and nonthreatening *cough*), which may well be demeaning and objectifying, but is primarily motivated by fragile hearts seeking not power, but ideal love."

Two thoughts:
1. Once again the subs get all the power, ne?
2. The road to hell...

Well, before I expand on that (and other wonderful insights in this thread) I must run off and just leave my own contribution to moétic studies as food for further comment.

* Verb: To moé, i.e. to experience the feelings of adoration elicited by characters containing moe (noun / adjective) attributes. “I moe Noriko-chan. (*^ ^*)”

* Adjective 1: To be or have moé, i.e. to embody or contain certain moetic attributes (attributes to be defined latter). “Noriko-chan is *so* moe!”

* Adjective 2: The specific attributes which contribute or convey moé-ness. “Band-aids on the nose are definitely moe! I mean, that of combination of clumsy enough to scrape your nose, endearingly vain enough to try and cover it, and determined enough to keep at it, is perfectly moe!”

* Interjection: To express the active experience of moéing(verb), i.e an “uncontrolled” exclamation which states “I am experiencing moé” in it’s verb sense for a character exhibiting moe attributes. “Noriko-chan, moe!! Ganabare!!”

* Noun 1: Generally images (but also figures, text, sound dramas, hand puppets or basically any media) which convey to the viewer (reader, user, etc.) a character (hence an implicit narrative) who contains the attributes of moé, and therefore induces in the viewer the experience of moé. Causing the viewer to express his experience by exclaiming “moe” is optional. “I’m gonna hop on Danbooru and get me some moe!”

* Noun 2: The historical phenomenon in late 20th century Japanese visual culture where by moé was generally adopted as a term to express a feeling and an attribute. “The emergence of moe is inexorably linked to the rise of cheap high-quality bishoujo figures, erogames and visual novels, and the decline of millitant messianic and hyper masculine otaku culture.”

* Noun 3: The impulse within anime culture to create idealized and infantile feminine characters, which are simultaneously objects for the manipulation and exploitation by, and alter egos for otaku. “Though not regularly used as such, moe is a trend which can be identified as early Tekuza Osamu’s work.”

[Samu-kun]

Yup, you definitely are correct Rocket in your analysis of moe and sexism. I think the issue of gender inequality has coloured the discussion of moe for far too long and it's time we tried looking at it from another perspective. In any case, moe isn't about inequality or exploitation, as it's about hope and dreams.

I'm not sure about your definition of moe, since all of them define it using the word moe. XD As for definition noun 3, a part of my essay was written as an answer to it.

[zanaikin]

Wow, epic topic, and definitely one of the most interesting discussions I've ever seen =).

The essay was absolutely splendid Samu-kun.

Although I must re-read it later to do it justice and fire up my own thoughts, my brain is currently 60% C++ and 30% TIP ( and who knows about the last 10% ).

Of course man shall say that moe is superior to love - but in at the end of the day, it is fundamentally impossible for moe love to be superior to real life love. People love moe because they have such high expectations for romance in real life. They seek for the ideal of love and not for love itself - and in the end they are disappointed by what they find. That is why they turn to moe instead - a world where such an idealized romance is possible. However, for these same men, the appeal of moe is nothing compared to the appeal of true, real life love. So they may claim that moe is superior to real life love, but in fact, had it not been for their desire for real life love, then moe would not exist at all. Moe is completely dependent, subservient to the desire of men to want such a true romance in real life. Offer any man even a shimmer of unlikely hope that such a true romance is possible in real life and he will drop moe in an instant and chase after it.

I've heard that iconic moe is only treasured so because most otakus never really found love, or at least a stable relationship in which to express it. Even for those who have established themselves in a relationship, whether short or long term, it's often arguable if they actually found true love, or simply a form of short term attraction that turned into enjoyable and convenient companionship. I certainly don't ever remember falling in love myself, and thus moe still retains every essence of its appeal to me =).

Be it idealism or virtual reality, moe is, at least in my belief, an escape from the often distasteful MMORPG we all know as 'IRL' or 'Outside', or possible a fallback one retreats to after failing to meet expectations or achieve results in a real life relationship. The fake is obviously... never as good as the real thing.

But then, like most other dreams moe still does intersect with real life, sometimes in significant amounts. This is when moe stops being just an 'icon' and really becomes what I classify it as - just another trait, an archetype, an adjective used in part to describe another. Who ever said moe must exist in its full glory and absolute perfection to be considered 'moe'? If one finds moe traits in a real live relationship ( which I definitely believe it doable ), than all the better for them.

In the end, I simply think moe is simply a means to describe something we've ALL discussed amongst friends ( and family in some cases ): "What are the traits you find most attractive in another person, in an irresistible way?" or "How would you describe the traits of what you imagine your soul-mate would be like?". Basically, if something is required to cause one to fall in love at first sight/encounter, then those are the traits that is defined as that person's "moe". It need not be iconic or exist only in fiction and dreams, but it's definitely far MORE likely to do so.

Information after all, is often classified as the most expensive resource in the world. If we could all find our soul-mates, moe-specialist anime producers would go out of business =P.

This is also the same reason I believe 'moe' exists just as much for women as it does for men. I've had to sit through more than my fair-share of sessions where a group of girls next to me are chitchatting about whom they think is hot and whatever. The only difference here is simply the terminology used... as far as my opinion goes.
Besides, moe as a term is used quite often in shoujo manga...

The argument traditionally goes something like "Moé is a demeaning objectification of women," with the implication that "Moé is a demeaning objectification of women by insecure weak men, who want to be dominating ubermensch! (forgive lack of umlauts)." This is followed by the ritual stoning of the ubermensch (joke).

That's ridiculous in my opinion. Well, either way I think sexism and racism will never die out, and simply cannot be stamped out. It's nature. It's reality. I can only classify those who cannot accept this truth as idealists. In the developed world of today, sexism and racism has already been toned down to as low as it could possible be for now. The only thing that can further improve the situation now is time... duration of acceptance and coexistence. But this is going off-topic...

One of the first questions asked in any job interview is to pick X adjectives that would "best describe yourself". Well, is that objectification now? What's the difference with moe? (I'll use my argument above as support =P). Arguing that "moe is demeaning objectification" is as absurd as saying "adjectives are sexism" in my view.

[DaFool]

Good arguments. I really hate it whenever moe-bashing turns into otaku-bashing because said otaku is sexist loser pig who doesn't want to deal with real-life 'I am woman hear me roar' types.

Just follow the masculinity and muscularity principle. A woman typically likes someone slightly more masculine (and muscular) then her, and a man slightly more feminine then him. That's why very few asian girls go for black men. The most adventurous ones go for white men. Majority of black women only go for black men. While this can be attributed to typical racial dynamics, I think the masculinity and muscularity principle gives a better overall explanation for the trend. Blacks are the most masculine... asians the least.

Now, otakus are among the most feminine creatures on earth. With this generation of young women being raised to be like Angelina Jolie... guess who these guys will be more attracted too, since there are less feminine women now? 2D girls, that's right! Because... they actually wear skirts! And have ribbons in their hair! Oh my god! Such an outward display of femininity!

[Samu-kun]

I've heard that iconic moe is only treasured so because most otakus never really found love, or at least a stable relationship in which to express it. Even for those who have established themselves in a relationship, whether short or long term, it's often arguable if they actually found true love, or simply a form of short term attraction that turned into enjoyable and convenient companionship. I certainly don't ever remember falling in love myself, and thus moe still retains every essence of its appeal to me =).

Otakus are not unique in that they have never true love. Not a single person in the world has ever found true love because relationships are about understanding and compromise and not about perfection. Also, falling in love does not make the appeal of moe any lower because no matter how many times you fall in love, people will never find true love itself. Some people can accept that and have great relationships, and that will be the superior mindset to hold in this world. (But they don't matter because they're not your target audience if you're ever planning to make a bishojo game. :3)

Be it idealism or virtual reality, moe is, at least in my belief, an escape from the often distasteful MMORPG we all know as 'IRL' or 'Outside', or possible a fallback one retreats to after failing to meet expectations or achieve results in a real life relationship. The fake is obviously... never as good as the real thing.

The real thing doesn't exist. (THE CAKE IS A LIE!) Moe love and real life love resemble each other but they are still two very different things.

But then, like most other dreams moe still does intersect with real life, sometimes in significant amounts. This is when moe stops being just an 'icon' and really becomes what I classify it as - just another trait, an archetype, an adjective used in part to describe another. Who ever said moe must exist in its full glory and absolute perfection to be considered 'moe'? If one finds moe traits in a real live relationship ( which I definitely believe it doable ), than all the better for them.

I would have to completely disagree here. If it's not perfect, then it's not moe. It is operationally impossible for moe to exist in real life. True love is an ideal, a simplification, and real life is too unstable to support such a simple notion. The idea of moe being possible to dilute goes against everything it is supposed to be. Once moe becomes restrained, then it stops being moe. Not only that, but it shall be too irresponsible to simplify individuals to such a degree as calling them "moe." People are complex beings with real emotions. You have to adapt and compromise with them to have a good real life relationship. In moe, there is no need for compromise because everything will be perfect and love shall be eternal. In the end, moe and real life should never be intermixed because they inherently cannot exist on the same plane.

In the end, I simply think moe is simply a means to describe something we've ALL discussed amongst friends ( and family in some cases ): "What are the traits you find most attractive in another person, in an irresistible way?" or "How would you describe the traits of what you imagine your soul-mate would be like?". Basically, if something is required to cause one to fall in love at first sight/encounter, then those are the traits that is defined as that person's "moe". It need not be iconic or exist only in fiction and dreams, but it's definitely far MORE likely to do so.

I would take it a step further and say that moe is creating a girl with these very traits that you desire.

In the end, moe is more than a mere adjective. If people could accept diluted versions of moe, then there would be no reason for moe in the first place. Instead, it is something separate from real life that must be constructed by bishojo game creators. It is impossible for moe to exist in real life. It must be constructed in fiction - and it will be the task of the creator to do that.

Just follow the masculinity and muscularity principle. A woman typically likes someone slightly more masculine (and muscular) then her, and a man slightly more feminine then him. That's why very few asian girls go for black men. The most adventurous ones go for white men. Majority of black women only go for black men. While this can be attributed to typical racial dynamics, I think the masculinity and muscularity principle gives a better overall explanation for the trend. Blacks are the most masculine... asians the least.

Now, otakus are among the most feminine creatures on earth. With this generation of young women being raised to be like Angelina Jolie... guess who these guys will be more attracted too, since there are less feminine women now? 2D girls, that's right! Because... they actually wear skirts! And have ribbons in their hair! Oh my god! Such an outward display of femininity!

Well, you're probably simplifying the real world too much. :3 I'm thinking that what you meant to say is that people "expect" guys and some ethnicities to be manly and "expects" girls and some ethnicities to be feminine. However, I can say that what people "expect" the world to be and what the world actually is very sharply different. I've known some truly terrifyingly manly and commanding Asian women in my life, so I can say just how utterly wrong most of these social expectations are. But I think what you said has little to do with moe. Gender issues and moe shall always be mistakenly intermixed, when in fact, they have very little to do with each other. Real girls will always be individuals with different tastes and beliefs, so it's too much of an exaggeration to say that women in general are more commanding than they are now. Not all women are feminists, you know. :3 Anyways, all of this is irrelevant. Moe doesn't exist because of feminists, it exists because of real life itself. Nothing in the world can be perfect. There must be understanding and compromise if people are to have a healthy relationship. Moe is about having a relationship where there is no need for that, because everything will be so ideal that there will be perfection.

[Samu-kun]

(What Samu-kun actually means by his posts: Your ideas are very interesting guys and any one of you may be right, but I have to keep defending my essay, since I poured in too much effort into it to betray it. XD...)

[mikey]

If it's not perfect, then it's not moe.

This is of course a terminological issue - I think zanaikin meant simply to say that you can find "a bit of moe" in everyday life. Like the sight when your beloved wakes up in the morning - that is really moe-ishly cute. It's not the actual meaning of moe, but it has some of the elements - or to phrase it better - you try and look for characteristics that you know from moe and look for them IRL, so you have a moe-like experience - I think this can be agreed on.

Moe is about having a relationship where there is no need for that, because everything will be so ideal that there will be perfection.

I thought of another element to this theory - time-specific perception.

You see, *maybe*, you can "have moe" IRL, but only for a certain time. Let me explain: For example, you are in a very good stage of your relationship and on top of that, you've had another great event and confirmation of your love - at this point your brain is overloaded with happy substances, you have no negative emotions, everything seems completely perfect - your girl is the most beautiful, you gloss over the "bad sides" since it feels you love them, too - and so on. You're intoxicated, the world is (for that brief moment) perfect and happy. Isn't this qualitatively the same as moe in terms of the feeling?

I mean, at this one moment there is nothing negative, you are optimistic and believe everything is easy and there are no problems, everything is possible.

Well, just a thought. It doesn't mean this is moe IRL, but it can mean at these moments, when life, love and everything feels perfect, you actually perceive (perceive, not have) the same perfection as moe, in real life. Of course by your definition moe means that this perfection actually exists, and you perceive perfection from this "fact". But for the perception of perfection it doesn't matter whether it comes from an objective fact (moe), or from a subjective feeling (life's great).

So... it doesn't change the definition of moe as you proposed, but it may mean that qualitatively the same kind of feeling of perfection that moe gives people can also be felt through other channels - maybe just for a short time, but still.

[Jake]

A woman typically likes someone slightly more masculine (and muscular) then her, and a man slightly more feminine then him.

So if I have a thing for tomboyish girls, does that make me really masculine or gay? ;P

[DaFool]

A woman typically likes someone slightly more masculine (and muscular) then her, and a man slightly more feminine then him.

So if I have a thing for tomboyish girls, does that make me really masculine or gay? ;P

Jake is uber-masculine. Remember the concept drawing of Jakob in NT (before he had glasses) and you said it looks uncannily like you? That was an uber-manly person!

That's why he has no problems with feminist women (*cough* British women), because they're typically manlier than your average woman. (apologies if I inadvertantly insult any British woman with that statement)

Ask some gays and deep down they want real, manly boyfriends who are men-- the same as what women want. Lesbians want cute girls. Masculinity and muscularity principle still applies.

My argument is solid.

[Ren]

A woman typically likes someone slightly more masculine (and muscular) then her, and a man slightly more feminine then him.

So if I have a thing for tomboyish girls, does that make me really masculine or gay? ;P

That makes you a perfect candidate for a Yaoi doujin.
Don't listen to DaFool, you're gayyyyy...gayyyyyy......gayyyyyyyyyyy! @D@*Hypnotises you*

Did I rebuild your carefully-constructed stereotyped view of Ren like this?:3

[papillon]

My argument is solid.

... I hope you're making a joke.

There are plenty of people who are uber-'masculine' who want someone to be similarly uber-'feminine', or vice-versa. (Hello, Gor!) Just as there are girls who don't care if their boyfriends are MORE 'feminine' than they are.

Anecdotally, the type of man who marries the 'more masculine' woman is often somewhat 'more feminine' (as guys go) rather than 'even more masculine than normal to compensate' - although he'll claim to obnoxious guys picking on him that he's more manly than they are because he's not threatened by the power of his woman.

If all lesbians were looking only for kawaii femmes, the butches would never get dates, not to mention those that fall more in the middle.

When I first came to England, I was warned that British women were expected to be LESS feminist and that I should expect a lot of obnoxious sexual joking in the workplace...

The world is still full of girls wearing skirts and ribbons. They have not disappeared. Some of them are still feminists.

And to quote Chasing Amy:

"...and to top that off, I’m a gay black man - notoriously the most swishy of the bunch."


People are different.

[zanaikin]

Not a single person in the world has ever found true love because relationships are about understanding and compromise and not about perfection.

I think I know plenty of people who would disagree to that notion. Besides, I don't think true love in any ways involve a complete lack of argument, that simply isn't possible in real life, and in my opinion too boring even in simulation. Anime/VN couples still have their disagreements, even if it is nowhere as often ( not to mention they typically only live in a high school environment anyways, where one's reality is far more sheltered ).
Not to mention some moe traits revolve around a heavy dose of disagreements ( even it does not necessarily involve compromising ), tsunderes being an obvious one.

I would have to completely disagree here. If it's not perfect, then it's not moe.

How many heroines in anime/VN could you classify as 'perfect'? Not to mention even if they're perfect in your point-of-view, it doesn't necessarily transfer to another.

This is of course a terminological issue - I think zanaikin meant simply to say that you can find "a bit of moe" in everyday life. Like the sight when your beloved wakes up in the morning - that is really moe-ishly cute. It's not the actual meaning of moe, but it has some of the elements - or to phrase it better - you try and look for characteristics that you know from moe and look for them IRL, so you have a moe-like experience - I think this can be agreed on.

Well, it's part of what I meant. I think the main difference is that I have a slightly more uncommon definition of moe than rest of you. To put it in the simplest manner... moe is a 'collection of traits' to me =P, to be extracted and used in individual or group quantities, but never all-at-once ( unless you want to come up with freakish characters like they did in Welcome to NHK ).

My argument is solid.

9 times out of 10 when a person say that, their argument is also completely wrong =P

Well, I don't think anyone except the actual gays and lesbians have a right to claim the information you state there.

[rocket]

I'm not sure about your definition of moe, since all of them define it using the word moe. XD As for definition noun 3, a part of my essay was written as an answer to it.

Yes, after reading your essay I find that what I've written (in an attempt to avoid becoming a moé apologist) falls into the same trap as many critics. Let me try again:

Noun 3: The impulse, within Anime Culture, to create characters of idealized feminine attractiveness (usually infantile/childishness, innocence, and purity), which are simultaneously objects of (safe, accessible, and often pliable) desire and alter egos for otaku.

As for the self referential nature, let me then try to be specific as to the attributes which embody/elicit moé:

Moétic attributes: Hyper idealized, yet accessible, femininity as expressed by the specific tropes of Anime Culture. Most commonly childishness/infantility - including behaviors such as clumsiness, sensitivity, selfishness, poor emotional control, or visual attributes like extra large eyes, etc., dependency, innocence/purity, naivety/unwavering optimism or equally guarded aggressiveness (tsundere type), mothering/domestic skills.

This list is problematic, because in our general Western (Non-Anime) Culture, idealizing femininity along these lines is considered sexist, aggressive, oppressive, etc. Even when the motivation is not traditional, the end result of putting 'women on any pedestal' may still be perceived as unacceptable to some. This is true regardless of the specific pedestal. However I do believe that while not comprehensive, this list of moétic attributes is accurate and reflects both usage and history.

While I will not go so far as to champion any specific idealized attribute (in fact I object to some of them) I will join Samu-kun in defense of the role and value of idealized characters. I have a committed and loving relationship with my wife, that is not hampered by my moétic appreciation of some characters, not was my developmental ability stunted. In fact I will go so far as to contend the opposite: Ideals are the wellspring that drive us to become better. Idealizing romance may lead to unreasonable expectations and frustration (and isolation form reality) but they do not need to. In healthy well balanced people, supported properly by society, ideals form a goal and a guide. Unfortunately many Otaku are not healthy, socialized or well balanced, and unfortunately some of the idealized attributes are rather sexist, but I'm beginning to think it would be a mistake to tar the entire phenomenon with the same brush.

In other words, moé no more is the cause of social retardation, than guns are the cause of murder. However the flip side is also true, perhaps guns and moé are best left out of the hands of some people...

In the end, I simply think moe is simply a means to describe something we've ALL discussed amongst friends ( and family in some cases ): "What are the traits you find most attractive in another person, in an irresistible way?" or "How would you describe the traits of what you imagine your soul-mate would be like?". Basically, if something is required to cause one to fall in love at first sight/encounter, then those are the traits that is defined as that person's "moe". It need not be iconic or exist only in fiction and dreams, but it's definitely far MORE likely to do so.

I'm all for saying that the Japanese word 'moé', most closely corresponds to the English word 'adorable, but I think it's important to identify its origin and real world usage because they both impart subtle but important connotations. "Wassup?" "Hello," and "Good afternoon Madam." may all be used with the same intention to greet acquaintances, but they imply very different cultures and time periods. Because the specifics are as important as the generalities I'd prefer to continue to speak of moé as both idealized, and relating to specific moétic attributes.

This is also the same reason I believe 'moe' exists just as much for women as it does for men. I've had to sit through more than my fair-share of sessions where a group of girls next to me are chitchatting about whom they think is hot and whatever. The only difference here is simply the terminology used... as far as my opinion goes.
Besides, moe as a term is used quite often in shoujo manga...

This is interesting. I'm not really a consumer of shoujo manga, so I'd love to know more about the use of the term moé in that context. Do you have specific examples you can point me at? I really want to understand if this is a new broadening of the term as it gain broader traction (much in the way that 'kawaii' moved in the other direction), or if it is a more localized phenomenon.

[Jake]

Jake is uber-masculine.
...
Ask some gays and deep down they want real, manly boyfriends who are men

you're gayyyyy...gayyyyyy......gayyyyyyyyyyy! @D@*Hypnotises you*

*Lusts after self*