Noob to professional game creator?

[jQ_theeNHK]

Let me start off by saying I know I'm going against conventional wisdom, pretty much everything I've ever read on this forum and I may sound like a complete fool, but I remain optimistic!
So this will be my first visual novel game created, but I want to make it a solid, full length commercial game. At least 3-4 hours of game play with multiple characters (8 characters who could be considered "major" characters and a few other minor characters)and probably far too many backgrounds. It won't have a ton of branching story lines, mostly minor differences in dialogue, (as of right now), but I do have one major branch about halfway through the game, where you decide who you want to fight for. So 2 endings and about 10 different ways to die during the course of the game ha.
I already have the story mostly planned out. I know the beginning, middle and endings, and I'm gradually transferring it to Ren'py, working on the UI and making changes here and there as I see fit to improve the story. I honestly have very little experience playing VNs, but I'm afraid that playing more now will "taint" my mindset and alter how I write my story. I'm hoping that by not playing a ton of VNs, hopefully I can bring something new to the reader. Maybe it's a naive way of thinking but I am hoping that's not the case. I quit my job about 2 months ago so I've been dedicating about 8-10 hours a day writing my story and trying to "dig deeper" into my characters and story line and develop them more and make them more realistic and believable (and spend most waking hours thinking about it!).
The reason I write this post, is to ask if anyone else has gone this route through Ren'py and had "success" (made enough money to continue doing this as either a full time job or just made good money off their games in general.) I've dabbled in java and other forms of video game development as well (Game Maker, RPG Maker and minimal app development), and decided to quit a pretty decent paying job to follow my dream of becoming a full time Indie game developer. I know many (many, many, many) people have failed going this route, but I feel optimist I can achieve this. I was curious, has anyone else here had success doing this? I know there's a whole business side of it to consider, which I think about constantly. I know it's about more than just having a good idea and some artistic talent.
I guess by now this has officially become babbling, but any feedback or just conversation on the matter would be great! Cheers!

[MoonByte]

I had done that with my "Cards of Destiny" project.
I had simply jumped in and made the game, including a complicated fighting system with cards, eight romance options, fourteen endings (or something), 27 Backgrounds, about 116 character pose images and about 60 CGs.

BUT I had no "success". It is - up to this day - a prototype.
Mind you, the script is there and stands. If it would be a non-visual game, it would be done and published long ago, but the thing is that the visuals were WAY too much for me to handle alone in the amount of time that I had (and I had like 1 1/2 year of spare time to continously work on it). Half the CGs are sketches that never got colored. Five backgrounds are just blank because I didn't even get that far. I had big plans for it, I also always dreamed and thought about it and consistently worked on it.
It didn't help, despite me still having the six docs for various things (character descriptions, design document, story explanation, branching paper, etc) and a whole folder filled with my sketches.
The game may have had a chance, if I would have had a team or at least one other artist behind me, but I didn't and it failed because of my limited ability to invest all I have into just that project before being at the point where the game was unfinishable (my style had developed over those 1 1/2 years to the point where I would have had to redo EVERYTHING which I was just not willing to do).

I have since made three commercial games on Unity and I can really only say: It IS possible that the first project will work out perfectly and everything will be awesome and a success, BUT chances are small. Even people with apparent "instant success" such as the creators of Undertale, FEZ and SuperMeatBoy had made games or game mods before. They didn't have much experience, but there was SOME.
I myself had made four Unity games before publishing those three commercial games. The ones before weren't BIG (and one stayed a prototype that is buggy as hell), but I had to get used to how the engine worked, what was possible and what I could actually do with and without help.
Same with my current project. I could have just started, but I have made a short prequel game and will likely make a second, simply to get used to the engine and the processes.

Why not try something similar?
Just make a short game, 2000 words or something. With 2 or 3 characters talking where you try out the features that you want to have for your big game (imagemap, choices, RPG fighting system, Drag-Feature, whatever), so you can not only test that everything will work, but also to get USED to how it works and if it feels good while playing.
There is after all a reason why even long-time professionals usually HAVE TO make a short demo game when they pitch their game to a publisher. NO publisher would accept only a document with an idea unless the team is like a guaranteed money producer (and even then they most likely want a short example in form of a demo).

I am aware that it sounds unfair and demotivating, but IT ISN'T.
This is a chance, a opportunity. You haven't mentioned anything about a time frame or deadline in which you want to create that game, so I assume you do it while working somewhere else (part time, studying in college, whatever). So if you have no pressing time problem, then take that time to make a tiny game as a Proof of Concept. It will not only help lever your future success (after all, once your game is finished, people may not know if they want to invest, so if you have a small free game floating around that shows your style, then people may be more willing to invest), it is free advertisment AND a little warm-up practice.
You can say "For one week I work on this and then I start the real thing", if you are really impatient. You can make it a GameJam and decide to invest one weekend on it and see how far you get. It's your choice.

[jQ_theeNHK]

I'm sorry that you weren't able to complete your first project, a year and a half is a lot of time to invest in something that never reached completion. But I definitely understand where you're coming from. And don't worry, I don't find what you were saying unfair. I know what I'm attempting now is a major undertaking, and it's a possibility that it may never reach a point that I hope it does. Besides, I asked for feedback and conversation, not just for people to hurrah me and give me words of encouragement. Honesty would do me a lot more good.

I don't have any games or fighting system in my novel, I'm sticking with just the storytelling aspect of it, so it won't be as labor intensive as what you were aiming for. I will have a lot of modeling to do, but like writing my story, it's something I enjoy and don't mind sinking many hours into.

I didn't think about making a demo of my game, that's something I will have to seriously consider. Put together a free 10-minute demo of the game or something, put it out there and maybe gain some added interest. Might help getting it greenlit on Steam. Thank you for that advice.

As far as a timeline... I'm still trying to figure that out. I don't want to rush things by any means, but I don't want to spend three years developing it either. As far as money goes, there's no real rush in that department. I have a nice cushion built up, and my wife (who's very supportive of me taking this risk) works as well, that's why I'm able to take this chance and dive in full force. If it does end up taking me 3 years, so be it, I want a really polished game to put there. I want my first impression to be something I can be really proud of, and show people I'm serious about what I do.

It sounds like you have a lot of experience in the field, thanks for taking the time out to shoot a response!

[SundownKid]

Most people advise indie creators not to "quit their day job" unless they actually have already found success as an indie. It's really, really difficult to live off your work as an indie developer.

The vast majority of indie devs, if they don't have a dayjob, do freelance and part time work on the side to be able to afford the cost of living. I suppose you can parlay this somewhat by moving to a location with low rent so you don't have a ton of bills to pay. But overall, indie development is usually a labor of love rather than a full career. It may make up for the amount of money spent doing it but the question is whether it will make enough money to live on. For most devs, probably not.

In any case, the best way to hone your skills as a game creator is "make games" and 'start small'. I started with a big commercial game myself, which was a big mistake. It's a typical noob trap to fall in - you have a big idea and want to make it into a game. But only by starting small can you get the full experience of releasing a game. OTHERWISE, you will have a nice and polished game to release that you spent all of 3 years making and then say - "what do i do now?" Because you won't have practice with the latter part of marketing and releasing the game. Or even worse, get stuck trying to make a large game because you have other ideas and just want to get this out of the way.

Basically; your first game will never be incredible. Because you will always look back on it and say "well I wish I could have done that better". So might as well get it out of the way as a smaller project.

[firecat]

Everyone already said the common vn development however no one talked about the marketing side. Vn for the western world is not going to help you make a living. Many people i seen in reddit agree on one thing commercial vn dont offer anything for them. While free games might be played since no one lose anything other than time. You also need to understand your audience, reading a book is almost like reading a vn. You know that if someone does different like adding superman in an anime world, people will comment on it.

I say dont do anything that is too different because have you seen a book that looks different? Nope its the same wording and such.

[Ghost of Crux]

You also need to understand your audience, reading a book is almost like reading a vn. You know that if someone does different like adding superman in an anime world, people will comment on it.

I say dont do anything that is too different because have you seen a book that looks different? Nope its the same wording and such.

Mmm I'm not exactly sure I agree with this sentiment; it sounds less like not knowing one's audience and more like bad writing. I mean, I guess it depends on what exactly it is you're aiming for-- a typical anime VN that doesn't seem to offer anything new might be like something comfortable to fall back to as a reader, but sometimes it can sink into the sea of the very, very many anime-style (and I'm talking about both the art and the writing tropes) VNs. Adding Superman into an anime world can be something that helps your audience remember your VN. Whether it's in a good way or not is unrelated to the fact that Superman is in anime world; it's related to how you write it. A well written insanity is still well written, and a good story can keep your audience for a long time.

I mean, in the end, writing is what really keeps your audience-- laugh all you want about Hatoful Boyfriend (which also doesn't have much interesting in the art department, save for some stock photo birds in edited in maid dresses) but the players who read it (and to the end) can all say that it's got its charms. The writing is over-the-top and absolutely ridiculous, and it doesn't hide the entire bird aspect of things. People obviously comment on the pigeon thing, but it doesn't stop them from liking the story.

I wouldn't call twisting the conventional content as changing the physical shape of the book. People break expectations and tropes all the time. It's what we thrive off of.

On the main topic side of things, I'm not sure I can offer anything new. I agree on the fact that you should probably do something smaller-- though if you want to keep it about your commercial project, perhaps a demo would do. Or, you can try to build a little side-story VN that can garner hype for the commercial project, if you have any such ideas. I know the temptation of going out with a bang, but there's really nothing more disappointing and heart-crushing than going out with an explosion... in the middle of nowhere, with very few people who will see it. WIP threads can only do so much-- you need something that lets the passing readers know, "okay, I know this person's stuffs and they're great, I KNOW I want to keep an eye on this". A great idea is a great idea, and people will comment on that, but the chances that they'll stick long enough for the commercial project to be released is quite slim.

[jQ_theeNHK]

(How are you guys pulling someone's previous comment and adding it to your own comment to respond?)

I guess I'm still not fully understanding the importance of putting out a small project first..? I don't know how much experience I would gain as far as marketing and releasing goes, as sundownkid commented, if I'm releasing a free game? I need to ponder that some more.. I do understand what he\she means about other projects getting in the way, I have a second drawing board up in my office with lots of ideas I already have brewing, although I've vowed not to touch them until this game is completed...

I get that it's nice to have something under your belt as a completed project, but is something small and simple really going to do anything for me? I can chop my game way down into something smaller and add graphics and say, "There I've released a game!", but then I'd have to start all over with a new premise and new characters and then I'd just be back to where I am now.. wanting to release a full commercial game. I could see making a demo of my game making more sense at this point I guess. And actually, I do like Ghost of Crux's idea about making a side story VN to my main game to garner interest, that's a really good idea. My game is set in space with a futurist theme, and if my initial game did well, I wanted to continue to build on that universe and develop more plots and story lines all tying into the same universe. I thought that would be a good way to develop a following and lead to help with future titles. Plus, growing up as a Star Trek kid, I've always had a love for space and exploration and it's my favorite thing to write about, so this story-telling type of game play falls right in my wheel house. (Although I'm also drawn into the hikikimori lifestyle and would like to make a future project tying that theme into a space-driven story.)

Firecat commented that making VNs for a western audience isn't going to make you a living, and I agree, I don't think releasing one solid game will be my "golden ticket" to the good life. However, I do see there's quite a few VNs on Steam right now, so these people gotta be making some money right? And if you're able put together a string of quality games, I would think eventually it's gotta lead somewhere.. But maybe that's not the case right now. I know VNs are still more of a niche market now, but maybe that makes it the best time to get in and make a name for yourself. I guess that's me just hoping that they will gain in popularity with exposure and turn into a bigger slice of the gaming community, and that's yet to be seen..

Anyways, thanks as always for the feedback folks! You have given me much to chew on today, and that's exactly what I was looking for. I look forward to continuing this conversation if anyone else has anything to add... Cheers!

[SundownKid]

(How are you guys pulling someone's previous comment and adding it to your own comment to respond?)

I guess I'm still not fully understanding the importance of putting out a small project first..? I don't know how much experience I would gain as far as marketing and releasing goes, as sundownkid commented, if I'm releasing a free game? I need to ponder that some more.. I do understand what he\she means about other projects getting in the way, I have a second drawing board up in my office with lots of ideas I already have brewing, although I've vowed not to touch them until this game is completed...

I get that it's nice to have something under your belt as a completed project, but is something small and simple really going to do anything for me? I can chop my game way down into something smaller and add graphics and say, "There I've released a game!", but then I'd have to start all over with a new premise and new characters and then I'd just be back to where I am now.. wanting to release a full commercial game.

Yes, the important part of releasing a smaller game is thus:

1) Trying to market the game and get people to play it is a job in itself, one which you cannot master unless you have already tried it before. It's best not to wait until you have a bigger game to release, because you might botch it up and then no one will be interested in said game.

2) Feedback from players, you will probably get some feedback as to what people liked or didn't like, or what you could do better. Of course, you could do that in beta testing for your bigger game, but you reach a bigger audience with an actual finished game.

3) Personal skill development, usually people tend to increase in skill over the process of making a game, which makes making the larger one easier.

4) A common saying is that the last 1% of the game takes as much time as the first 99%. Being able to add polish is difficult and it's a skill that should be practiced on a smaller scale.

Besides you don't have to start over with a new premise. You can always make another game set in the same universe.

[SundownKid]

Everyone already said the common vn development however no one talked about the marketing side. Vn for the western world is not going to help you make a living. Many people i seen in reddit agree on one thing commercial vn dont offer anything for them.

That's not quite true; if you are good at making commercial VNs you can definitely make bank on them. Just look at Moacube, they have solid sales of Cinders and Solstice, etc. There are other groups like Winged Cloud that make.. questionable vns but make a ton of money on them. I think an important thing is to look at success stories and see what actually worked. Going in blindly with no plan will definitely cause you to fail since it's a business just like any other business, where you have to cater to fans and not the other way around.

The trendsetters are usually really small free games with a cool idea to them. Undertale made a big impact with a small free demo, which then led to a larger game. What you dont see is large, or commercial games being trendsetters because in that case devs need to play it safe.

[papillon]

Several of us do make a living on it (I obviously do, I'm not alone!), but most don't. Most indie game creators fail to be a financial success - especially if they put all their eggs in one basket. That's not a VN-only thing.

Are there first-time creators who've gotten lucky and struck it big? Sure, but there are also people who win the lottery.

There are many reasons why new creators are strongly recommended to work on smaller projects first. For one, it will help you find basic problems in your approach that you didn't realise and correct them before you sink a ton of time into your pet project. There are all sorts of ways you could go wrong that you won't know about ahead of time, and trying to correct them after the fact in a big project is much, much harder.

Another useful reason is that, if you dump out a handful of small prototypes, you may get some very useful feedback about what people like. Maybe that silly idea you had about pigeons really resonates with people!

The indie market is super-crowded these days. A strong concept that people really react to is a BIG help.

I honestly have very little experience playing VNs, but I'm afraid that playing more now will "taint" my mindset and alter how I write my story. I'm hoping that by not playing a ton of VNs, hopefully I can bring something new to the reader. Maybe it's a naive way of thinking but I am hoping that's not the case.

This is, unfortunately, a potential red flag. As in, it's something I've seen stated by many other people and usually led to disaster.

If you're not well-versed in the medium, the most LIKELY outcome is that you will waste a lot of time re-inventing the wheel, or run straight into things early VNs did badly, which later developers have found much better ways to handle and meet player expectations.

Now, an outside opinion CAN bring a breath of fresh air to a genre... but if you don't know what the genre already does, you won't have any idea what's new, either!

More importantly, you need to consider what you ARE bringing to the reader, if not a background in VN.

I would be quite interested in seeing a visual novel made by a film director, because their skills/background could give them a really interesting new approach to visual framing. Same for a comic book artist.

Someone with a strong background in some other kind of game, applying those skills to the basic game design of a visual novel INSTEAD of just doing a handful of simple branching choices and endings? That could produce an interesting game.

[jQ_theeNHK]

You might be right about the demo SundownKid, I'm going to have to put a lot more thought into it.. I still want my first game to be a polished, very professional looking game, but maybe releasing a demo to garner interest initially is the best plan. User feedback would only create a better final product.

[jQ_theeNHK]

Papillon, were you part of the team that created Long Live the Queen? I clicked on your link and saw the game there. That is actually the one VN game that I've played and had fun with it!

I actually have Science Girls in my wishlist as well, but haven't gotten it yet. I've put my video game playing to the side for the time being..

[MorchellaGames]

Note that I use the term "game" here interchangeably with VN because they have many things in common and most of the advice you can get applies to both products.

It cannot be repeated enough. Limiting the scope of your first game is one of the most important things a newcomer can do.
People that want to make their first game hate this piece of advice. They have visions of grandeur and want to make something amazing, and now!

It's great to people think like this; ambition is important. But there is a reason why so many people fail at game development.
It's hard as a product to develop, and it's also hard, especially today, to get people to know about your product.
Building a first simple project, if taken seriously, will introduce you to doing both those things (development and marketing).

Making a game independently is a real business, and it needs to be built that way.

Another aspect that is important that may not have been mentioned is the strain on one's personal life.
So you've quit your day job and you say your wife will support you.
Will she still actively support you in three months, in 6 months, in a year?
Will she still support you after your first failure (because a first failure is the most likely scenario)?
Will she still support you once you start injecting money into your project?
I'm sure your wife is very supportive and loving, but keep these things in mind.

On the subject of money, you will likely have some expenditures as you progress.
Can you do everything in game development? Probably not. (writing, programming, art (character + background + UI + company/project branding), sound, music, QA, translation?, etc.)
Will you hire someone? What is your budget?
Will you team up with someone (or more than one person) with revenue split? How will you recruit these professional quality resources as a newcomer?

Final quick pieces of advice.
- Failure is important. Failure is the road most entrepreneurs (because this is what you are now) take on the road to success.
- The most important thing you can do as a new indie is to finish your game. It is very easy to get sidetracked by a new idea(s).

Sorry if I ended up being blunt, but it's very easy to get caught up in the "romantic" aspect of indie game development.
I just want you to know what you're getting into.

[jeshii]

It's great to see so many aspiring entrepreneurs here

But anyways. jQ_theeNHK, I love that you are dedicated to going commercial in this, but I do have to say I am a bit worried that you may be attempting to bite off more than you can chew. From someone who made the same mistake, I highly, HIGHLY recommend for you to focus on a very small project, from start to finish, especially if you are going solo right now.

Ideas are cheap and execution is everything. Not trying to kill your motivation, but I have seen it far too often. Absolutely amazing ideas, that never seeing the day of light due to poor execution (or lack of). Please make sure you are able to see a project through to the end! I cannot stress that enough!!



The triangle above is an infamous tool used for project management. It's great for those just getting started on defining their project. So, for example, you want to have like 12 different endings, 3-4 hours gameplay, and 8 characters. Thats a pretty big scope! So that means that you must either allow more time for the project to complete, put more money into costs of production (or a mix of the two), or ultimately lower the quality of the product (making it less appealing for customers). But if you reduce to 1 hour of gameplay, maybe 2-4 characters, you would drastically reduce the scope, allowing you to maintain quality, time, and expected costs of the project.

So do you want the best quality? Or the cheapest visual novel made? Or want to complete this at neck-breaking speed? In a world of finite resources, remember that choosing one will influence the others. Its up to you to balance it, my friend.

[jQ_theeNHK]

I apologize for the late reply, I didn't receive any notification that there had been any other posts on this thread and stopped looking at it.

Morchella and Mishii, I appreciate the advice as always, never feel the need to apologize for being honest. I didn't want to get into the money aspect too much, but suffice to say I have enough to get me through a couple years' worth of bills and expenditures, alongside my wife's income. I've since been working on a real estate venture as well that presented itself, so I had to step away momentarily, but I'm still working on my game and still plan on putting everything I can into it. I know there will be failure and struggle and setbacks, and I know the reality of the situation is that I've already put countless hours into a game that may never even get enough traffic to be greenlit on steam. But I will be very proud of my game (and myself), even if it only has minimal success, because it will be something that I'll see through to the end and hopefully it will be a game that people will really enjoy. Hopefully that enjoyment will lead to future success in games I create. Initially I was planning to do most of it myself, but have since realized I'm going to need to hire a composer and possibly artist as well, if I hope to have this game finished sometime this year or next. I know many people have told me to limit the scope of the game, but I already have several hours of dialogue and coding written, it's just a matter of graphics, UI polishing and music needed to bring about a finished product.

I will continue to post on this website and will be sure to let everyone know when it is complete! Cheers!