Beginnings

A place to discuss things that aren't specific to any one creator or game.
Forum rules
Ren'Py specific questions should be posted in the Ren'Py Questions and Annoucements forum, not here.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Amecha
Regular
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:17 am
Contact:

Beginnings

#1 Post by Amecha »

Beginnings are difficult in any medium and how you go about it affects the reception of your game or novel or any other consumer experience. For something like a VN I know it could be similar to a book but I think it has its own sort of difficulties. With a book you hook a reader with the first line, pull them through the first couple of paragraphs by keeping it interesting and building up your plot. But on the other side video games have to hook a playing with the idea and mechanics. A clunky tutorial may push players away, etc.

How do you think this is different with VNs? If you've made one what was your goal with the beginning of the game? And of the ones you've played, which ones had the best beginnings and why? Because it had a good hook for the first line or because the beginning was just cinematic in a way that caught your attention?

User avatar
isak grozny
Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:17 am
Projects: The Bitter Drop [Modern Fantasy][Gay Romance][BxB]
itch: grrozny
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Contact:

#2 Post by isak grozny »

Honestly, I'm shallow for this, but what I look for in a VN is good-looking art (if it's an OEL VN, art that doesn't look like animanga is a huge bonus). I think good visuals are essential for a strong VN beginning. It is, at least partially, a visual medium!

Also, I think a beginning and a set-up that aren't cliché go a long way. I can't think of a worse way to begin a VN than with a "waking up" scene, for example. That's been done over and over again in so many mediums that it honestly just makes me yawn, no matter where it turns up.

User avatar
Amecha
Regular
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:17 am
Contact:

Re:

#3 Post by Amecha »

isak grozny wrote:Honestly, I'm shallow for this, but what I look for in a VN is good-looking art (if it's an OEL VN, art that doesn't look like animanga is a huge bonus). I think good visuals are essential for a strong VN beginning. It is, at least partially, a visual medium!

Also, I think a beginning and a set-up that aren't cliché go a long way. I can't think of a worse way to begin a VN than with a "waking up" scene, for example. That's been done over and over again in so many mediums that it honestly just makes me yawn, no matter where it turns up.
Your not the only one for sure, I judge a VN at first glance by the art and if it's in a genre I know I like. (Although I'm totally fine with the animanga stuff.) If it's not I rarely if ever give it a second chance so that's a major consideration of course. But cliches are also a huge turn off. At least for most people. Some people really like certain cliches as well and will actually seek them out (hell I know I do). But that's probably one of the easiest basics, is it a cliche? Don't do it.
I think cliches are especially important to consider with this medium as it is so dependent on the story and writing.

User avatar
isak grozny
Regular
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:17 am
Projects: The Bitter Drop [Modern Fantasy][Gay Romance][BxB]
itch: grrozny
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Contact:

Re: Beginnings

#4 Post by isak grozny »

I think there are fun clichés and boring clichés, is the thing. Late for first day at new school? Boring cliché. Forbidden love between members of two rival factions? Fun cliché. At least IMO -- YMMV here.

Another thing is that bad use of language and bad grammar (especially misplaced commas or improperly punctuated dialogue) turn me off any piece of fiction pretty fast, no matter the medium, but I think I'm kind of snobbish in that regard. By "bad use of language", I don't mean unusual or dialectical use, I mean clunky and awkward writing. It turns up in translated works sometimes, when the translator's not very good.

jeshii
Regular
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:25 am
Contact:

Re: Beginnings

#5 Post by jeshii »

Imo, having a solid beginning is very crucial. Like you mentioned, book authors do it, and in the movie industry I heard that they strive to pull the audience in within the first 10-15 minutes. Im definitely guilty of stopping a movie on Netflix if the intro gives off a poor quality.

If a vn had poor images, bad writing with many typos, then I'm sure I wouldn't be so inclined to continue any further. But maybe if there were many good reviews, I would still try to stick through with it, so there is that.

User avatar
Ghost of Crux
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:17 am
Projects: To Weave A Thread
Organization: UNICORSITY
Tumblr: unicorsity
itch: namio
Location: Indonesia
Contact:

Re: Beginnings

#6 Post by Ghost of Crux »

Despite the fact that I'm also a very visually oriented person, I would go ahead and say that a VN needs a solid writing as a hook rather than anything. Good art + bad writing = feeling of great sadness for the visuals, which is already solid. Bad art + good writing = I'd focus more on the writing, and maybe even offer to do the arts for any future projects.

The thing about visual novels is that because there's no actual mechanics or player interaction save for clicking and the occasional choice-making (not counting some RPG-like visual novels, that is) what you're left is narration in form of, well, text. The narrative, which most people play VNs for anyway, is the main character here. So I'd argue, if you're not really someone with an artistic group who might be able to pull off nice things and add some background visual storytelling elements (like showing the state of the world instead of you having to describe it) you will really, really need a strong writing. Especially for the beginning. (Which basically also includes avoiding pitfalls that makes normal novels/writings boring or just a huge turn-off, such as annoying tropes that really, really ought to stop)

On the other hand, you don't have to only use text to deliver all of the narrative. Provided you have a good artist and programmer in your group, there are some amazing things you can do. Honestly one of the things I remember most is Locked-in's beginning-- The very clean visuals with the cutscene of a car crash, and the music that drifts after it all really set the tone for me, and all that without a word. It doesn't even look very flashy. Everything was in monochrome-- but it IS very visually pleasing by expertly framing the things that matter with the colors. But that's really not a topic that belongs here so I'll cut it short before I get too distracted.

Still, like I said, I would rather see good writing with bad art than the other way around. The thing about good arts is that... usually, thanks to the fact that arts in visual novels tend to be sprites (with the occasional CGs), it's hard for it to really carry a story, because it's not intended to do so. I mean, if you look at a silent comic, each panel has movement and purpose that helps the narrative-- the art itself guides the reader's imagination. A bunch of sprites? Even if you put 15 different expressions into the game, should I block the text, it wouldn't really do any good. Because for the most part, an artist draws sprites to support the writing. The ones who don't are probably drawing comics right now :'p

So yeah. IMHO the focus on writing, unless you've got a really good team who knows a lot about delivering narratives through other means, such as art. The only thing I feel when I see gorgeous graphic with cliched writing is the urge to punch the screen and question the cruelty of the world.
Image Image

misspells everything as unicorn. Call me Namio. They/them. | Honest Critique

Become a patron on my Patreon!

User avatar
MoonByte
Regular
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:18 pm
Completed: Shine (RPG Maker), Heroes (RPG Maker), Lantern Bearer (RPG Maker), Loop the Loop (Unity), Other Stars (Unreal), Sky Eye (RPG Maker), WIN Delivery & Fateful (Ren'Py)
Projects: Weird Is Normal (Ren'Py)
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Beginnings

#7 Post by MoonByte »

I actually judge the art only BEFORE downloading. If it got a pass from me by having me made download it, then it passes. And if the genre, tags or premise sound good, then honestly, I sometimes dont give a fuck.
There's, for example, a horror VN in here about a guy in a hospital hunted by monsters. It had "childish" drawings, but the plot summary sounded cool and once I played it, I was so into it, that I tried for three hours to get the endings. The crude art even made it work even worse, I had literal freak attacks from the female monster.
With that being said:
Art is of course not UNimportant. But you usually know what you get, everyone here posts at least a screen or two, giving you a chance to judge ghe graphics.
I think, like any storytelling medium, what matters is the hook.

And it's not necessarily about writing either. I'm no mothertongue (I can speak five languages and pride myself on my B2 in english, but I am no A1) and I can relate to people having trouble, so unless it is VERY bad (which can sometimes make it hilarious though and still keep me going), it is for me the story.
I agree with izak there, cliches are one such thing.
Good tropes, bad tropes. You have to be careful, BUT some people use old cliches creatively. The old "Wakes up" beginning was done brilliantly in a the sidescroller horror game Neverending Nightmare.
Tropes are tools, they aren't bad in themselves. If eight people have a schoolgirl being late with a toast in her mouth, it becomes boring. If ONE person makes it a guy dressed up as a girl or makes that toast some James Bond device, then boy, I WILL be curious whats going on in that story.

With that said:
I don't have much time to play games next to university and working on my portfolio. But what makes me get a game is not exactly the art, but the tags (BxB is a guilty pleasure and sure to at least make me look what other tags the game has, but its not a guarantee). Cool or unusual tags make me interested into clicking on the thread (hey, I had "pizza" in my game for that reason), the screens and plot description make me download (though big plot descriptions are a big turn-off for me, I want a catcher in five sentences).
Once I've downloaded it, I will care ONLY for the story. If it's good, interesting and smart, then they've got me.
If it's the 5000th rendition of Romeo and Juliet (possibly on a boat to make it more interesting, oh wait, that'd be Titanic), then I will be bored unless the creator spices things up.

Ristorante Amore is a good example for that. The prologue was nice, but it soon bored me and I started skipping text and simply going through to get an ending. When the prologue was over though and the game started, it instantly had me and I was so intrigued that I even went through the prologue again to read it properly.
That's what a good game does, make you willing to spend time with it.

User avatar
Ghost of Crux
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:17 am
Projects: To Weave A Thread
Organization: UNICORSITY
Tumblr: unicorsity
itch: namio
Location: Indonesia
Contact:

Re: Beginnings

#8 Post by Ghost of Crux »

MoonByte wrote:And it's not necessarily about writing either. I'm no mothertongue (I can speak five languages and pride myself on my B2 in english, but I am no A1) and I can relate to people having trouble, so unless it is VERY bad (which can sometimes make it hilarious though and still keep me going), it is for me the story.
I know that writing is often referred to only as the act of writing itself (ie. grammar, word choices, etc) but IMHO it should apply to the entire written narrative itself, including but not limited to plots and characters. It's also how you approach the story; no matter how interesting the premise, if you're approaching it from the wrong directions it might end up bad anyway, no matter how good the writing style is. (Eg. starting FAR too early in the timeline, which leads to the story starting only 20 minutes after the start, or simply the wrong point of view, which might be not as interesting as other povs)

But yeah. Just to clear things up with my post since this made me realise that "writing" could've been taken as style and grammar rather than the entire package.
Image Image

misspells everything as unicorn. Call me Namio. They/them. | Honest Critique

Become a patron on my Patreon!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users