south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

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Taleweaver
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#16 Post by Taleweaver » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:12 am

Let me imagine a situation where this law matters:

1. I hire a South Korean artist for my next VN project.

2. To pay said artist, I get his e-mail address to use for PayPal.

3. I catch an e-mail trojan that sends my e-mail contact list to some spammer in Russia.

4. Said spammer now uses the e-mail addresses he has to harrass and possibly hack the people from my contact list.

5. The South Korean artist can now sue me for not properly protecting his PayPal contact data.

...honestly, what are the odds?
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#17 Post by Ghost of Crux » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:20 am

Taleweaver wrote:Let me imagine a situation where this law matters:

1. I hire a South Korean artist for my next VN project.

2. To pay said artist, I get his e-mail address to use for PayPal.

3. I catch an e-mail trojan that sends my e-mail contact list to some spammer in Russia.

4. Said spammer now uses the e-mail addresses he has to harrass and possibly hack the people from my contact list.

5. The South Korean artist can now sue me for not properly protecting his PayPal contact data.

...honestly, what are the odds?
Indeed, this is a plausible scenario! It's got me thinking-- maybe instead of asking for e-mail address of the artist, perhaps ask them to send an invoice to your e-mail instead? That way, you're keeping things in Paypal, I believe, so you technically can't be blamed for accidental information leakage in case your e-mail contact list is leaked and other similar scenario. Not to mention that asking for an invoice is a good habit, anyway.
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#18 Post by neowired » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:42 am

firecat wrote:Every single time i have to go through this and people are ignoring it:
Perhaps it may be the time to consider the possibility that if every single other person thinks you are wrong, you may, indeed, be wrong?

Nah, let's face it, you are the smartest and most knowledgeable one, clearly everyone else is wrong. I think they are just jealous, and idiots, pearls before swine, why do you even bother? I guess the nobility of your heart and the great wisdom of your mind makes you unable to stop, even though they are all stupid peasants, against all odds, your fight for truth continues. One day, sometime in the future, you will make them see the light.
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#19 Post by Rossfellow » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:58 am

Taleweaver wrote:Let me imagine a situation where this law matters:

1. I hire a South Korean artist for my next VN project.

2. To pay said artist, I get his e-mail address to use for PayPal.

3. I catch an e-mail trojan that sends my e-mail contact list to some spammer in Russia.

4. Said spammer now uses the e-mail addresses he has to harrass and possibly hack the people from my contact list.

5. The South Korean artist can now sue me for not properly protecting his PayPal contact data.

...honestly, what are the odds?
This is an interestingly plausible, although highly unlikely situation.

To be able to sue you, this Korean artist will need to be able to prove two things:

1: Proof that punitive damages were done. In the worst case scenario, he ends up losing money to unauthorized withdrawal/purchases, and he'll need to prove how much was lost. According to this law, he will receive thrice the amount lost.
2: Proof that you directly caused the leakage of information, or whether you were negligent in protecting said information.

#2 is an interesting one. Negligence by definition is the inability to do what any reasonable person would do in this situation. But when you suddenly catch a computer virus, and you have no idea how you got it, what exactly would be grounds for Negligence? Not having adequate anti-spyware?
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#20 Post by Taleweaver » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:39 am

Rossfellow wrote:#2 is an interesting one. Negligence by definition is the inability to do what any reasonable person would do in this situation. But when you suddenly catch a computer virus, and you have no idea how you got it, what exactly would be grounds for Negligence? Not having adequate anti-spyware?
From the way the law is worded, it looks to me as if the legislators were going for the conclusion "if someone is able to steal data from you, then you're not protecting them well enough". So if something happens, that's proof enough it was Negligence.

Then again, I've only read the law in its English translation. No idea whether it's a good translation.
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#21 Post by firecat » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:44 am

Rossfellow wrote:
Taleweaver wrote:Let me imagine a situation where this law matters:

1. I hire a South Korean artist for my next VN project.

2. To pay said artist, I get his e-mail address to use for PayPal.

3. I catch an e-mail trojan that sends my e-mail contact list to some spammer in Russia.

4. Said spammer now uses the e-mail addresses he has to harrass and possibly hack the people from my contact list.

5. The South Korean artist can now sue me for not properly protecting his PayPal contact data.

...honestly, what are the odds?
This is an interestingly plausible, although highly unlikely situation.

To be able to sue you, this Korean artist will need to be able to prove two things:

1: Proof that punitive damages were done. In the worst case scenario, he ends up losing money to unauthorized withdrawal/purchases, and he'll need to prove how much was lost. According to this law, he will receive thrice the amount lost.
2: Proof that you directly caused the leakage of information, or whether you were negligent in protecting said information.

#2 is an interesting one. Negligence by definition is the inability to do what any reasonable person would do in this situation. But when you suddenly catch a computer virus, and you have no idea how you got it, what exactly would be grounds for Negligence? Not having adequate anti-spyware?
don't forget that this is south korea's laws not usa laws. i found many sites saying the same thing and yes they even say you can get sued:

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2 ... untry.html

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/dealing ... al-threats

http://law.stackexchange.com/questions/ ... m-overseas

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2015/11/you ... tters.html

so from these articles this could happen to you, this should be clear.

Extreme level where you broke the law and know it: jail

Normal level where you do business with South Korea on the net and they found that you did broke the rules:
1) same jail or fine
2) your account deleted / banned from Steam or site forever

low level where its confusing and somehow you are involved:
1) talk to a lawyer and win(?)
2) case drop

Anyway just don't give information away, keep everything safe. Steam developer have reported to sold games to South Korea people, its only a matter of time until someone gets sued.
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#22 Post by trooper6 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:37 am

Firecat tends towards the hyperbolic and doom and gloom-y, which makes it hard to buy into. But let's say everything is as dire as firecat says, what I learn from firecat is that as an indie I should just avoid having business dealings with South Korea until they change their laws.

Side note: I lived in South Korea and the government didn't enforce a bedtime, I have friends in South Korea and they have never mentioned a government enforced bedtime...so hyperbolic details like that make it hard time believe everything firecat writes.

Anyway, a question: if you distribute through itch.io or Steam, can you embargo specific countries? Can you say: don't sell to South Korean IPs?
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Re: south korea "PIPA" and why it matters to you.

#23 Post by Taleweaver » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:57 am

While engaging in discussion is welcome and perfectly alright, I strongly recommend everybody to retain a respectful and neutral tone when presenting your own arguments. People are more likely to listen if you don't sound as though you are dismissing every single word that comes out of their mouths.

That much said, please continue the discussion.
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