Language-Learning VN Game for Japanese

[chocoberrie]

Hello, everyone!

I have been inactive on the forums for quite some time, but the spark to get back into Ren'Py recently hit me - so here I am! ^_^

I'm interested in making a language-learning game for Japanese, and I'd like some feedback on how I could go about doing this in Ren'Py. I did a search on the forums, and found two games-in-progress: this one and this one for hiragana. (These threads haven't been updated in a while, does anyone know what's going on with them?)

I also came across a few threads (here and here) in general about language-learning games that brought up some important issues:

• Needs to be engaging and fun, i.e. have a story/plot of some kind (educational content only would be too dry/boring)
• Avoiding information overload
• Voice actors - having them or not, how to get Japanese voice actors ($$)
• Target audience
• Learning styles
• Having in-game feedback - like milestones/goals to track progress, and instant corrections on quizzes or mini games
• Glossaries, dictionaries, links, etc. that are clickable (not copy/paste)

Based on this list, I want to:

• Come up with a fun, engaging story - should this be linear or branched with different endings?
• Organize learning material into lessons - how would these lessons be incorporated into the story?
• Add interactive elements - quizzes, a dictionary, lesson summaries? (would mini games be too difficult to code?)
• Include a resources page with clickable links - how many resources is too many resources?
• Add audio elements - I have audio of native Japanese speakers pronouncing hiragana, but what about more complex things like full words or sentences?
• Incorporate instant, in-game feedback - like a page that shows correct and incorrect quiz answers (with explanations), and a bar at the bottom that shows lesson progress (e.g. part 1 of 2 in an individual lesson)

What do you guys think? Any feedback on how I could go about accomplishing these things would be much appreciated! ^_^

[firecat]

1) Linear, should help. branched story would mean the player would have to relearn the lessons again, if they already know the words then its just going to annoyed them, not teach them.

2) Music? it always seems to work with people who want to learn a language. however not everyone is going learn by music since the human mind learns in many ways besides this fact. if you can give the option of having users read, listen, follow-along, and image learning then they could learn the basics.

3) not everyone likes games in learning softwares, its even harder to make it fun since anything too fun would break the learning lesson, anything too boring will make the player quit. i recommend not adding mini-games, takes away too many resources on the vn, people won't buy it because of past experience with other softwares, and it doesn't really help learn anything.

4) I would think anything 200 is too much, people do want to learn but too many will cause confusion. Again the basics is better to learn than nothing at all. Don't let the words have the same meaning, spelling, "sound-alike", or slang words.

5) unknown answer, this can go anyway possible.

6) no please don't people have been shown to rush into getting to the finish line. its human nature to finish, people will not learn because of the bar nearing the end. I do like the correct and incorrect quiz answers, just don't make it long.

oh one more thing, don't make it too anime. people will not try it if there is a theme attach to it.

[trooper6]

I played a language learning game for German I thought was very good called "Himmelscheibe Von Nebra." It was put out by the Goethe Institute. Perhaps you might find some inspiration from trying it out: https://www.goethe.de/en/m/spr/ueb/him.html

[Tempus]

TrickWithAKnife has been developing a VN that sounds a lot like this for quite a while now. He has an old WIP thread for it but it doesn't really seem representative of the VN as it is now. He hangs out in the #renpy IRC channel on freenode though. (I've pinged him with this thread.)

[chocoberrie]

I played a language learning game for German I thought was very good called "Himmelscheibe Von Nebra." It was put out by the Goethe Institute. Perhaps you might find some inspiration from trying it out: https://www.goethe.de/en/m/spr/ueb/him.html

I tried playing the browser version of that game, and the web page didn't load anything! Even though I installed the Unity Player and refreshed the page

I'll give the iOS version a try! Thanks for the suggestion!

[chocoberrie]

1) Linear, should help. branched story would mean the player would have to relearn the lessons again, if they already know the words then its just going to annoyed them, not teach them.

Good call! After thinking about it, I agree - a non-linear story would be confusing to navigate for learning purposes.

2) Music? it always seems to work with people who want to learn a language. however not everyone is going learn by music since the human mind learns in many ways besides this fact. if you can give the option of having users read, listen, follow-along, and image learning then they could learn the basics.

Multiple methods of presentation are important for encoding new information in long-term memory, so interactivity in terms of reading text, listening to audio, and presenting visuals would definitely go a long way. Music is a great idea! What about using audio snippets, like from HelloTalk?

3) not everyone likes games in learning softwares, its even harder to make it fun since anything too fun would break the learning lesson, anything too boring will make the player quit. i recommend not adding mini-games, takes away too many resources on the vn, people won't buy it because of past experience with other softwares, and it doesn't really help learn anything.

Ah, really? I was thinking that mini games like drag-and-drop and a memory game (flip over two cards that match) would be helpful for basic grammar and hiragana/katakana. These mini games would be accessible from the main menu, and out of the story, so-to-speak, available as a study tool.

4) I would think anything 200 is too much, people do want to learn but too many will cause confusion. Again the basics is better to learn than nothing at all. Don't let the words have the same meaning, spelling, "sound-alike", or slang words.

Good idea! Homophones are definitely confusing. I was thinking of making a first game that covers basics, maybe the N5 level only (as far as JLPT levels go).

6) no please don't people have been shown to rush into getting to the finish line. its human nature to finish, people will not learn because of the bar nearing the end. I do like the correct and incorrect quiz answers, just don't make it long.

oh one more thing, don't make it too anime. people will not try it if there is a theme attach to it.

Hmm... What about having a table of contents that shows how long each lesson is?

I definitely wouldn't put 200 resources or long-winded explanations. If anything, pointing to one or two outside resources would be more helpful than having a wall of text.

Thanks for your feedback, it's much appreciated! ^_^

[RotGtIE]

You should make a game about a dude who takes a plane to Japan and has a homestay with a pair of cute sisters who dress up in yellow tour guide uniforms to show him around the country.

[TrickWithAKnife]

Hi.

As Tempura mentioned, I've been working on something similar for maybe 4 or 5 years.
I work at a glacial pace due to real world commitments, but never really stopped, except for 2 months when Dark Souls 3 came out.

I'm also a permanent resident of Japan and a teacher. Different languages, but many of the skills are transferable.
Also, I've had a lot of help from Japanese friends and family.

Anyway, I have run into a lot of the same issues as you, and figured out possible ways around most of them. I'm happy to share with you if you have some way of having more private discussions (Tempura mentioned the #renpy IRC channel).

Some of the methodology I would prefer the potential audience not to see.

[Shagwrath]

Teaching myself Japanese atm, and the idea to do something like this occured to me. I just see it being A LOT of work if you want to teach someone anything useful, more than just hello, goodbye and the kana, and learning how people. Years of work where you will have to acquire new skills like how to teach, how people learn, etc.
Not trying to play devil's advocate though, would love to see and play something like this if it was done well. Just had to add my 2 cents

[TrickWithAKnife]

I'm 4 or 5 years in so far. You aren't wrong.

[firecat]

Hi.

As Tempura mentioned, I've been working on something similar for maybe 4 or 5 years.
I work at a glacial pace due to real world commitments, but never really stopped, except for 2 months when Dark Souls 3 came out.

I'm also a permanent resident of Japan and a teacher. Different languages, but many of the skills are transferable.
Also, I've had a lot of help from Japanese friends and family.

Anyway, I have run into a lot of the same issues as you, and figured out possible ways around most of them. I'm happy to share with you if you have some way of having more private discussions (Tempura mentioned the #renpy IRC channel).

Some of the methodology I would prefer the potential audience not to see.

As teacher to teacher that is not very nice, also your knowledge might not be correct. japanese is not something you learn in 4 or 5 years, heck it takes people more or less than 10 years to learn the basics and still have to go through the harder words. I been teaching my students english, nearly none of them very care about it, the few that do only understand "Hi and bye" talks. Now understand that even with many new tricks I try, it never works out to be how I wanted. The main problem with that is me, where yes I do understand english but no I can't get grammer to work for me because english grammar is very different.

So what i'm saying is don't think you know everything, native people in japan will know your mistakes.

[TrickWithAKnife]

I'm not sure what I wrote that offended you. I've been teaching for 8 years. My students are doing very well. If you are struggling to teach English to Japanese people, I would be more than happy to bat around a few ideas with you. That kind of discussion has helped me a lot, especially in the first few years.

I also understand that it can be difficult for people who speak English as a second language to teach it.

My Japanese is not good. That's why I have 4 Japanese people helping me with that side. One of them is even a qualified Japanese teacher. They stand by my teaching methods.

[Rossfellow]

I'm not sure what I wrote that offended you.

Don't sweat it. He misinterpreted the purpose of this thread and your response to it. And trying to let him know that he made a mistake is a colossal waste of time, so again, don't sweat it.

Also, OP, I think plot would complicate the educational material, especially one about language. This is because having a linear plot requires the reader to be totally immersed-- The act of academic learning disengages them from the story. It's like reading the glossary at the back of the book in the middle of reading a heated argument. It's exhausting and it cuts into the experience. If this synthesis between plot and language education is possible, I haven't seen it yet. (Maybe for science... Think Franken Fran.)

You can try the VN equivalent of the 4koma approach, similar to 4koma manga like Geijutsuka Art Design Class, or textbooks like the new New Horizons(the version with the Ellen Baker that went totally viral). Short one-shot chapters about or including the educational material of the day. A format similar to Higurashi's TIPS section might also work for this purpose, where you select a subject and a chapter plays out.

Quizzes are nice to sneak in at certain intervals and make for good review. Minigames are nice for letting people apply what they have learned, but I think those should be supplemental, not mandatory.

[trooper6]

I was quite immersed with the plot of the Himmelscheibe von Nebra even though it also included educational material...so it can be done. I think that it was a mystery was helpful.

[Ghost of Crux]

Also, OP, I think plot would complicate the educational material, especially one about language. This is because having a linear plot requires the reader to be totally immersed-- The act of academic learning disengages them from the story. It's like reading the glossary at the back of the book in the middle of reading a heated argument. It's exhausting and it cuts into the experience.

Mhm, this, and a bit more. I mean in some ways quite a lot of people (especially ones in countries where language classes are terribly expensive and/or is just plain BAD when taught in school curriculum) learned languages through reading things with plot. But admittedly, a lot of the work was done by the person interested instead-- fanfic is hardly a place intended for learning, after all. I learned English through meticulously trying to wade through hundreds of fanfictions using a translator (it was a 2008 pocket digital dictionary, so I had to look up the words one by one). Since it's basically how the suggestion sounds-- ie. using story to incite people to understand language, I have some input:

[*] It wasn't too much of a deal to me to look things up. HOWEVER, it DID mean that I have totally forgotten the conversation just prior, so I have no idea what's happening anymore. Since you end up focusing on looking up words, I'd really suggest having something like a history screen as a reminder of what happened prior.

[*] IMHO plots where "MC goes to place, has to learn how to say things" is kind of... really blatant and quite a bit awkward, though admittedly the one that most prominently came to mind was that semi-disturbing Go Go Nippon thing. Obviously that's just one (questionable) way to approach the idea, but I personally wouldn't be too interested in such a thing for a plot.
It allows the player to "step in", but imho it's too blank slate for me to really care. It's especially true because I'm a POC who grew up in vastly different cultures compared to most "blank slate MC" these types of things provide, so now I have nothing to relate to AND no backstory to give a hoot about.

[*] Analyzing the reasons why I kept going on trying to read fanfics despite not knowing English at all (think a 5th grader dropped into a foreign country with only "What is your name" as the extent of language knowledge), I think it's because less of the plot and more because I care about the characters. I was curious about their dialogue. I wanted to know what they're doing. I think this is primarily why it seems like a number of people ended up learning English because of fanfics-- because the characters are ones we're already invested in. I have no idea how you plan to possibly use this bit of info, but I just thought I'd say it, since it's a sentiment shared by quite a number of my friends, too.

[*] Cons of using plot for learning: It's really, REALLY hard to learn new words without repetition. And nothing breaks a game as much as a native-speaker NPC repeating something 5 times to see if you understand. This is why I would rather use Duolingo for actually learning new words or making sentences.

[*] Pros of using story for learning: You can actually get an idea of how the language is used, which is IMMENSELY helpful in internalizing the learned language and such.

So IMHO if you can find a simple, breakable plot, I think you can give it a try? What seems to be important is that you can relate to the characters and be interested to learn more. Also, for a certain audience, it might be worth trying to have a VN where you and other characters just don't speak the same language. It's a bit demanding of the audience, but I think with a well crafted story and characters, it would teach the players vastly more than if you just make a learning game, since a lot of what I remember involves a lot of time and thought put into actually searching up the definitions. They're not lying when they say that if you want to remember something, you'll have to write or type them down-- the actions leave an imprint on your mind. The words take up more space and leave more impact.