The state of VNs and their future

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mikey
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Re: The state of VNs and their future

#46 Post by mikey » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:50 am

monele wrote:How many people actually *know* about Kana? Whereas you will find tons of people who know the Resident Evil name without ever playing the games. And that's the whole problem, you can't think of selling something that people never heard about. And you can't say people don't like something they've never heard about either.
Maybe you can also view it as a kind of balance. VNs are not popular enough to be mainstream (for reasons X, Y, Z...), but if they were, it would probably mean that their popularity would have to come at the expense of the popularity of something else.

I remember there were always a few dominant genres in gaming, and this handful is also existent today - with somewhat different genres at the top at the moment. So what I am saying is that there is only so much place for the top few, and whenever something new comes to the top, it usually means something else is being pushed down - simply because there is room for let's say five great summer blockbusters.

If you were to make a hundred equally great movies and run them the same summer, no matter how good they would be, somehow I believe a top five would still come out of them. On one side it's overload, so there has to be a selection, no matter how unjust it may be - and on the other hand, people need some sort of a yardstick, to see where things fit in and to build a kind of perspective and orientation.

Usually I am reminded of this whenever I want to try something new - such as plunging into the world of websites about plants. I quickly look for the few that stand out because of their rating or popularity - not really beacause I would think they are the best for me, but I need to establish a basis from which I can then see what I really need. And I think this is a very important role for mainstream.

Even in VNs, you have the top bunch, and to be honest it would be a big coincidence if they were exactly the top games for you, as everyone has their special mix of favorites that sometimes includes some of the the big titles, but also has a few of the amateur works maybe, or something rare, or maybe a game that many people don't like. Also, you will have your favorites ordered in a special way, and the one you like the most doesn't have to be the big title. But it can be.

So there is space for everyone. To come back to the original thought, it's I think more a question of understanding the purpose of popularity and ranking and how it helps, rather than trying to find out why the popularity is on a certain (low) level only and by default making it a goal to increase the popularity. IMO it will develop naturally, if people act naturally. What I especially wanted to say is that it cannot be a bad thing to be less popular, and it's not a bad thing if you don't primarily aim at getting popular.

Of course, you will get the automatic response that this is a virtue out of a necessity, that you are not good enough to make it to the top, so you just invent reasons why not being popular is okay. But striving to achieve popularity or being the best is a goal for a different time and area for different people. A person in his role as a commercial VN developer will often want to strive for perfection in his work, but in his role as a hobby runner it will be enough for him to have participated in the marathon and finished it without setting any greater goals for the future.

A professional runner on the other hand, will want to be the quickest - but in his side job as a consultant for a simple running computer game, he will be happy to see that a certain audience likes his work once it's done - you cannot laugh at him saying it's no good when his game didn't beat Halo 3 in sales figures, because that's missing the point - of the game, as well as how the person perceives his work on the game.

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Re: The state of VNs and their future

#47 Post by lordcloudx » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:58 am

First of all, I concur with mikey's opinion. Not all of us are aiming for popularity at all.
monele wrote:Now, VNs for children, educative VNs, Choose your own adventure VNs... these are ideas that look good to me. It doesn't have to give up the anime root altogether, but it's really what I've been trying to say all along : there are other domains to explore, that might attract different crowds. Now, I'm not saying we should all force ourselves out of our comfort zone. If we're good at doing anime stuff, it's probably better we stick to it. But if *anyone* ever thought of doing something different but gave up because they thought "the community only wants anime games", then it's a problem :/. I mean, the "different crowds"? Chances are they're actually the same as the anime lovers. Don't you all read books, watch TV series, go to the movies for a lot of non-japanese things? Assuming you like super heroes, for example, wouldn't you enjoy a typically comic book like super hero VN? Right now, super hero lovers only have action games to quench their thirst. This tackles one part of the super hero genre, the action... what about the character and story side?
Secondly, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with the entirety of this paragraph including its basic premise.

Frankly, I just fail to see the "problem" that's being pointed out here. Visual Novels - amateur English Visual Novels in particular, are NOT lacking in variety or creativity at all. Yes, there are still other domains to explore, but just one look at the Ren'ai Archives will tell you that a significant number of domains have also been explored by the amateur VN creators scene.

Also, there are some games not listed in the archives based on subjects that some of us would rather not explore. I've seen at least one fully homosexual non-anime VN once upon a random google search.

I think that experimenting and aiming for something unique is nice, but we shouldn't underestimate the importance of fine-tuning our basic skills to make the best out of our current projects.

However, what I do agree with is that there is an audience beyond LSF for our games. I realize that a lot of us (I know a few individuals) create games specifically aimed for the community and nowhere else, yet, I haven't met a single person IRL who didn't like Hikari's Ribbon (shameless self-promotion) after I pressured them into reading it (mini-cd installer with custom cover... powerful stuff :P).

Let's take a successful commercial VN like Tsukihime for example; (yes, I'm repeating stuff I've said before) sure, it's popular among the VN hobbyists, but really, would you expect a normal non-anime person to read it long enough to actually enjoy it? Depends on the person, I know, but I'm willing to bet your average Joe won't even get past the first chapter.

Now take Pytom's Moonlight Walks. It's short but sweet and the stats and comments on download.com speak for themselves. Even if the Author himself admits to the inadequacy of the character art, those who don't really watch/read anime/manga nor study art won't really notice it. Fact is, I'm willing to bet that Mr. Average Joe will get more enjoyment and actually Finish Moonlight Walks as opposed to the "legendary" Tsukhihime.

Now I'm not saying that the games made by this community are superior or inferior to Japanese VNs (They can be depending on what you're using as a point of comparison, but that's beside the point.). The point is that there are people outside this community who can still enjoy our games. It's just that we ourselves need to realize and accept this potential within our own creations instead of wasting time making mostly pointless or otherwise self-destructive comparisons.
How do you make your games? I see. Thank you for the prompt replies, but it is my considered opinion that you're doing it wrong inefficiently because I am a perfushenal professional. Do it my way this way and we can all ascend VN Nirvana together while allowing me to stroke my ego you will improve much faster. Also, please don't forget to thank me for this constructive critique or I will cry and bore you to death respond appropriately with a tl;dr rant discourse of epic adequately lengthy proportions. - Sarcasm Veiled in Euphemism: Secrets of Forum Civility by lordcloudx (Coming soon to an online ebook near you.)

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monele
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Re: The state of VNs and their future

#48 Post by monele » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:35 am

Assuming everyone could access Tsukihime the way Moonlight Walk can be accessed (in english, free, small download), yes, you're right, most people would perfer Moonlight Walk because it very generic in the sense that it doesn't require any anime conventions knowledge.

And I don't think it's about being popular or making the genre popular. I was just thinking of what could bring more people to make VNs. More people = more variety = more games :). Actually, it *shouldn't* become too popular. More popular = more crappy games usually ^^;.

Finally, I don't know why I'm going back into this since I already realized I was initially wrong and that there's not much more to do. And as if to prove me wrong even more, there have been a few very original projects popping up these last week or two. *gags himself and kicks himself out of the debate*

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Re: The state of VNs and their future

#49 Post by PyTom » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:17 am

One fun metric for evaluating the success of visual novels and games is people/persons. (Yes, I just made that name up.) The idea is to divide the number of people who play the game over the number of persons who were involved in making it. For example, Moonlight Walks was played by maybe 40k people, and there was only 1 person on the development team... so that's 40k people/persons.

Compare that to pro games, like Half-Life 2. Half-Life 2 (and its sequels) is a phenomenal game, and one that I recommend to everyone. But it had 100 people or so on the development team. That means to get the same people/persons score, it would need to sell over 4 million copies--- which it did.

People/persons is a sort of metric for coming up with how much a single person's effort affects the world. VNs have some advantage insofar as they can use a small (1-10 man) team, rather than the much larger teams used by commercial games. It also works well as a metric for how people can support themselves, knowing that a game can be a proportionally smaller success as the teams involved grow smaller.
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Re: The state of VNs and their future

#50 Post by monele » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:07 am

I love this new metrics! It's definitely motivating when you show the effort vs result ratio this way ^^

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