Non-writers and their projects

[monele]

The topic has come up a few times lately and it seems to come up once again in Nio's thread about his project. So, curious, I'd like to take this out of specific game/concept threads and analyze the situation.

The idea is not to discuss artists (and musicians/coders/whatever) working for someone else, but rather those who are trying to build a project (thus taking the role of designers), bringing the main concept, ideas and maybe even an outline of the story or descriptions of the characters... but not able to go further because they don't know how to write full stories, dialogues and other writing related work.

There a few things I wonder about when it comes to this and I hope some of us will be able to answer, while the unknown bits will be discussed

1) Are there designers out there who created a project while not being the main writer? Are there such people working on a project right now?
In both cases, how does it go? Is the writer a friend? How much control is kept on the story elements? How does the writer react to writing someone else's story?

2) Are there designers looking for writers right now? Are you looking for someone to flesh out your vague ideas? Someone to write dialogues? Someone to write narration? Do you want the writer to come up with characters within a framed situation? How much control do you want to keep over the project (mood, content, style)? How much are you able to provide for the project, story-wise?

3) On the other side of the fence, you're a writer : would you accept to work under a designer? How much freedom would be required for you to enjoy working? What would you rather do (design characters, write dialogues, write narration, come up with plots or themes)? Is there a point where you'd feel you're doing "all the work" while the designer is just chilling around (how much should the designer provide to be considered an equal and not just a bossy leader)?


Here are my own answers (and additional specific questions) :

There have been many times where I've felt a writer could help my projects. I'd be looking mostly for help with plots and fleshing out stories and characters. I'd be providing a skeleton and some of the "meat" and collaborative discussions would help fill out the blanks. In some cases, I'd consider just giving the main plot and a mood to follow and let the writer go with this (but see my question about the designer being considered a bossy leader ^^;...).
I know I would be pretty strict about some things (maybe I don't want uber drama in the story) and I've been known to reject many ideas, rather bouncing off them into a new direction. I'm thinking this might lead to tensions if the writer ends up thinking (true or not) that his version of the story is better.

A practical example would be when I asked about the theme of witches and people discussed the "evil/trick" side of it. As the designer, I would like to say "no, this is not the kind of focus I want for this story". How would a writer react to this? Is it okay to know what you *don't* want but maybe not know exactly what you want? ^^;
I suppose such cases could be avoided by defining as much as possible first, so the writer knows if he will "click" with the project and isn't tempted to go in a wholly different direction.

[N0UGHTS]

I'll go for #3...

I would accept to work under a designer, provided I know that the designer isn't a... waste of my time, yeah, let's go with that. As for what I'd really like to do on a game... Uh, how about everything? I like being in complete control, and I'm one of those people who wants everything to work according to plan/vision/supposed fate, etc. The only thing I can't really do that well is coding and composing music. And maybe BGs... How is "equal" defined for me... Well, everything's hunky-dory as long as I get credit for everything I do, plus everything else I deserve. Praise, Laughing Cow cheese, that sorta thing. Oh yeah, and the freedom I would need to be able to write? Hmmm... Well, what I think I require the most is being able to have my opinions listened to. I want to be able give input on the whole "vision," that's all. I also want to be able to spend a lot of time with the designer so our ideas can mesh together nicely and such.

[papillon]

I'm pretty bossy and sure that my ideas are Right. If hired to do the writing, I would be likely to get annoyed if after I'd started you suddenly noticed I was doing a subplot with evil witches and told me to stop that.

Set down as many guidelines as possible before your writer gets started! Mention things you do and don't want, write a plot outline if possible. If you don't provide a lot of direction to start with, people are more likely to come up with their own wacky ideas and then sulk if you shoot them down...

[Deji]

*raises hand*
I can respond to #1.
I can't write at all. I mean, I can, but it ends up being awfully cliche and corny and... ewww.... =_=;

For Astre@ I asked a friend to write a story for me. He had an idea, he discussed it with me, I said "ok, do it!" and he started summarizing it, creating the characters, bulletpointing the main events and lstly writting it. He shows me his progress every time he finishes anything, and I'm etitled to criticize anything that others me. I can draw whatever I want with what he gives me, but I'm always open to crit from him.

For Caramel Mokaccino I drew some random characters without anything too specific in mind and asked another friend to write a story for me with those characters. Conrary to Astre@, we both discussed the ideas we had and what we wanted to do. We fleshed out the characters together, to make sure we both ahd the same characters in our mind and wouldn't go OOCing them (in the other's POV). Then we discussed the story, bulletpointed everything together, discarding ideas we weren't sure about and keeping the ones we both liked.
I have the rights to do anything I want to do art-wise, but I ask for feedback from my writer. My writer has the right toi write whatever she wants to write, as long as it sticks to what we've dcussed, and I'm entitled to revise, discuss and ask for rewritting of any part that bothers me. I can also give dieas of what i want to happen that weren't discussed beforehand.

The key here is working as a team, not like "I'm the boss and you do what I say!" When all the team members ahve the same concepts in their minds and have the same guidelines and goals, the more entusiastic everybody will be of working on the project and you have more chances of succeeding =3

(btw, I'm writing a topic about dealing with artists in Visual Novels when you're not drawing, from my own point of view as a member of a team of artists for a VN... xD; )

[tigerrenko]

Well I fit under #3

I think that writing is a trade like any other. A good writer can write whatever is needed for the project. As long as designer/leader know what they want it's easy to work. Same goes for an artist, if scenarist/leader doesn't have a clue, they can't create proper art. I prefer to invent characters, give them motivations, hidden conflict because drama is always about struggle. Also, I like to write descriptions (environment, atmosphere, characters, etc.).

Cheers
TR

[monele]

Little note : I realized the word "director" could also work, if not better, than "designer".

I like being in complete control, and I'm one of those people who wants everything to work according to plan/vision/supposed fate

Mmm.. doesn't this mean you're more of a designer yourself then? o_O. Or you mean controling drawing and writing but leaving the main plot and themes to the director?

(ack, okay, I'll go with "director" from now on XD)

papillon : I think we're pretty similar in that regard then..... We'd so clash And thanks for confirming my thought : establishing as many rules as possible should avoid such bad surprises.
(rethinking about it, though, if I wasn't the one having to work the evil witch subplot in, maybe I wouldn't mind it *that* much)

Deji : It does sound like you're in control, and yet, parts of it feel like a full collaboration.
So, Astre@ came entirely from your writer, main idea and all, from scratch? Yet, you were the one launching the project and now overseeing it. That's very interesting o_o. Have you actually had things changed because they bothered you?
Also, I suppose the implicit "payment" for your writer was that you would draw and code the whole thing as long as it didn't stray too far from your tastes? (I'm using "payment" as a very generic concept of giving and receiving)

Caramel sounds a lot more like true collaboration where both members have an equal say on what's okay and what's not... with shared tasks of writing and drawing.

In both case, I note that rules have been established, and again, I'm pretty sure this is necessary .

I have to ask : would you attempt projects in similar ways with non-friends? I'm guessing having friends write for you is probably safer as you have similar tastes (or at least some shared tastes)?

And yay, another topic on collab . If anyone is up to it, I think a topic on people looking for coders would be nice. It seems some people are actually looking for people who will put quotes around sentences (which doesn't really require any coding), while others might be looking for people to deal with the various medias, adding transitions, pictures and music to a script (not *making* them, just scripting them in). And others are looking for actual coders to create new systems and such (such as mini-game engines or RPG systems).

tigerrenko : would you be okay with writing a complete script for example? (story script, not code script)

Oh, and for both writers who already answered and for the next ones : would you say writing within a set frame is easier or harder? At which point would you feel the frame is like shackles? (only a theme, theme and setting, just characters, etc...)

[N0UGHTS]

When I first read "director," it somehow got translated in my mind as "dictator." XD I wouldn't mind being a dictator... :scary evil happy face:

Well, actually, I'm more comfortable being the director who does absolutely everything except code (though now that I think of it, I don't think any of my games will need anything complex...), make SFonts, and compose music.

As for the difficulty of writing within a frame... I'd say it's pretty easy for me to write either way, but it's way more fun without a pale. Though if I have to write within a pale, I've got to have as many specific details as possible, or else... Or else... Well, something like this could happen. You hear that? Could. It never did. Just... It just could.

eem "Why can't I?"
des "Sure, they're stuck on an island, but we're writing a romantic comedy ADV."
des "{i}Romantic {/i}"
extend "{i}comedy {/i}"
extend "{i}ADV{/i}."
extend "You can't have themes of death, nihilism, sociobiology, and human cannibalism in a game like that."
show des_looking_away with fade
show eem_on_verge_of_tears
des "And you'll have to take out the vivid descriptions of cannibalism, too."
show eem_wiping_tears_away_like_a_man
eem "..."
eem "..."
eem "..."
extend "Fine."
show eem_smiling
eem "But what if people think cannibalism is funny?"
show des_pointing_gun_at_self

[Deji]

Deji : It does sound like you're in control, and yet, parts of it feel like a full collaboration.
So, Astre@ came entirely from your writer, main idea and all, from scratch? Yet, you were the one launching the project and now overseeing it. That's very interesting o_o. Have you actually had things changed because they bothered you?
Also, I suppose the implicit "payment" for your writer was that you would draw and code the whole thing as long as it didn't stray too far from your tastes? (I'm using "payment" as a very generic concept of giving and receiving)

Caramel sounds a lot more like true collaboration where both members have an equal say on what's okay and what's not... with shared tasks of writing and drawing.

In both case, I note that rules have been established, and again, I'm pretty sure this is necessary .

I have to ask : would you attempt projects in similar ways with non-friends? I'm guessing having friends write for you is probably safer as you have similar tastes (or at least some shared tastes)?

For Astre@, my writer always puts himself below me, and treats me as the project Leader. He's very humble about everything he does regarding the project and always adds "... that only if you're ok with it, of course" xD;
The only things I told him when i asked him to write a story for me were that I wanted local highschoolers and something that was misterious, scary and probably with a murder or two, since I wanted to draw smething not-cute for once (and I was into Higurashi at that time xD). I remember I came up with an idea of a story myself, but his idea was way better xD;
I don't think I haven't changed anything from what he's shown me, but I've had some ideas and I've clarified some things I wanted/liked to have that he gladly accepted =3
We've been best friends since forever, so we're both happy to do something together =P It's as you say: He writes for me (because I needed a story) and I draw for him (so he can get his story distributed in an interactive visual form and gush about it).

And yeah, Caramel is more like a collab, but it started as "you! write something for me so I can draw it!"

I've never asked somebody I don't know to write something for me with my own charaters... I'd have to give it a try, but I'd probably be really scared. I'm very fond of my creations and if somebody deviates from what I want them to be/think/do (aka OOC-es them), I tend to feel sad/annoyed/complicated/angry xD;;; It hapens to me everytime I do a comic battle in enterVOID with my character DX;

[Nio]

In my defense (as my name was mentioned here. ) I can in fact write stories. I just don’t think they are my strong point (then again maybe nothing is >< ). As PyTom said in the other post, I have a weekly comic that I write/draw. I know, however, that it isn’t going to win awards, but it’s not meant to be serious or deep in the slightest. This is just my negative personal opinion. For all I know people like what I do.

I've tried to work in a team. But the problem I came up against is that each person works at a different pace. I had a writer friend working with me. We would work together, sharing ideas etc. He would ask me to sketch characters to help inspire him. The problem was that I was eager to go forward with the project and he was usually too busy to put much time into it. I would get bored waiting and it would fall apart.

Like papillon, I need to be in control and as an entrepreneur I’m hesitant to give up whatever meager income will come from any project I work on.

I've never asked somebody I don't know to write something for me with my own charaters... I'd have to give it a try, but I'd probably be really scared. I'm very fond of my creations and if somebody deviates from what I want them to be/think/do (aka OOC-es them), I tend to feel sad/annoyed/complicated/angry xD;;; It hapens to me everytime I do a comic battle in enterVOID with my character DX;

I feel the same way. I think it is different for someone to ask another to write for their creation than asking someone to draw their ideas.

[Mikan]

People who've lived a childhood like mine are not exactly common, so I'm kinda stuck working on my own game.
I thought about getting writers or maybe an editor, but I didn't like the way they were interjecting their own interpretations of the game world (which is, quite honestly, inevitable, since it is only logical and convenient to fill the missing gaps with what one knows), so yeah... I work alone.
My writing's not that bad. Some say it is funny.

[tigerrenko]

@monele: Sure thing, asking a writer to write a whole script is like giving child a huge candy!

As for the restrictions, there is no hard rule. If theme, or setting, or characters are uninspiring then it's difficult to write, but even then a writer can benefit from a solid frame. The main issue is weather designer/director knows exactly what they want. I wrote articles for all sorts of things that I don't even know about, but I prefer to write about things that interest me. I guess its same for artists. If they don't like drawing mechas, it will be a pain to make them look splendid.

Cheers
TR

[Dusty]

This is a weird question.

I always assumed that, well, since this is a visual novel, the writer would have to be at the top? And then the writer might have to get help from a coder, an artist, or a composer if s/he couldn't do it by him/herself.

This "director" concept seems very weird, unless the producer writes (part) of the script. Hm.

you have challenged me to reconsider my world, congratulations

[sciencewarrior]

I don't see why this should be weird, Dusty. When creating a movie, the scriptwriter isn't the boss; the producer is. Ditto for mainstream games. Magazine editors have very strict rules on what they will publish, and no manuscript ever goes to the printers intact. If you are a better coordinator than writer, and you have a concept you'd like to materialize, this is a perfectly valid route.

[Dusty]

Shh, I'm just a CG naive little kid, stop imposing your views of structure on me! D:

This is just one of those things, where... I'd never ask a writer to write my project. I *might* ask an artist to help. Maybe. I just thought of producers as for big, commercial projects with a big staff, and when you've got... 4-5 people max working on one amateur VN, why bother?

Oh, also, I'm a terrible, terrible coordinator. No group leader positions for me!
I see how other people might be good at it, though, now.

[dizzcity]

*raises hand* #3 here.

Writing is my forte, but my skill is based on raw intuition rather than refined technique at the moment. As I see it, the best way to polish one's skills as a writer is to simply write a lot, and write a variety of things. That's why, even though I feel that I would like to write my own stories, I actually want to spend time writing for other people - working with other people's themes, plots, characters, etc. It's a creative challenge in itself - being able to write to specification, despite the original concept not being your own. Of course, there should be some limits - but I'd prefer to try and filter out projects which I have a distaste for right at the beginning (eg. I don't want to write any ero games, so won't volunteer to write for any), rather than trying to change the course of the project midway.

Regarding the level of direction I'm willing to accept - while I think I'd be capable of being totally free to set up everything myself, I actually would prefer more constraints and greater input from the director, as challenges to expand my skill at writing. As long as the director/designer commits to giving me regular and useful feedback, I can work with it. I don't care if he/she does nothing else to contribute to the project except giving me feedback... maybe that's a bit self-centered, but that's enough for me. Plus, it removes the directorial burden from my shoulders, and rather than asking someone whom I have very little control over to change their work to suit my vision, it's far easier for me to change my writing (the one thing I can control well) to suit someone else's vision. And frankly, for visual novels, words are much less expensive to change than artwork or music.

-Dizzy-