Games with 100+ characters

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JayBlue
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Games with 100+ characters

#1 Post by JayBlue »

What do you thing about a game with more than 100+ characters?

Note: concider that each character contributes to the story and 70% of the characters are guaranteed to die somehow leaving only 30% of the cast which is a mix of good guys and bad guys.

Edit:
I see that the common opinion is that wouldn't be easy to make a story with all the characters be important, so here's some context and details.

1. Let's say 5% are main characters, 15% are bad guys, 40% are characters who could be anywhere in between somewhat important to very important, 40% are fire fodder used to develop other characters, both good and bad. (To clarify how the characters would contribute to the story, the story would revolve around all 100+ characters trying to not die, so the contribution would be how the characters life or death effect other characters.)

2. What if there were multipule routes that focused on different lesser characters without excluding the main characters involvement from the route.

3. What if the characters could be saved by the player character and characters lived or died based on who you choose to save or not save. Ultimatly 30% of all characters (give or take 10% or so) would have to survive, but the characters that survive would be diffrent in each route and/or playthrough. Example: You chose to Steve in your 1st playthrough thus he's one of the 30% who survived, but in your 2nd playthrough you chose not to save Steve thus he's one of the 70% that died in that playthrough. (The choices would be more complex than just save or don't save Steve. It would be more like, "Should I sacrifice characterA and characterB for the slim chance of saving characterC.")

Note: I might be crazy enough to actually try and make a game with 100+ characters :)
Last edited by JayBlue on Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#2 Post by Vegeluxia »

I think it would really depend on the context. So, without any context, I have to say that just seems like way too much, and, honestly, pretty pointless. If 70% of the characters are just going to die, what's the point of even introducing them? If they're dying just for the sake of having character's die, I can't imagine it's going to have that much of an impact. Plus, in a single story, I can't imagine caring that much about that many characters. Is each character unique? Or at some point does Character A start blending in with Character T, and I can't tell them or their contribution apart later on? How much could each character possibly introduce to the story, and why does each contribution have to be made by a separate character in the first place?

For a single game with a single story, I just can't see it working out. It just sounds too big, too hard to keep track of, and too hard to care about in the long run. Especially if every single one of these characters are meant to be important ones.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#3 Post by Shinoki »

A game with over 100 characters that actually contribute to the game? (I'm assuming, named characters who aren't throwaway NPC A, NPC B)

While I find visual novels useful when there are a lot of characters to introduce because there's always a name that pops up when the characters speak (like a reminder to who the character is), 100 might be a little too much. It could work, but the game would be very... very... long.

If you're trying to make an emotional impact with the characters, you should probably cut the cast size down. After all, it would take a long time to garner hatred, sympathy, empathy, emotions for all 100 characters. When there are so many characters, some are bound to get overshadowed, and their roles in the story will probably overlap.

It's a matter of how much time you spend developing a character. If you can manage to make all of the characters unique in their own ways and make them not just 2D cutouts, having a lot of characters is fine. However, 100... I still think that's too much.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#4 Post by indoneko »

100 character including npc? some rpg games (like Sengoku Rance) have nearly that much (though only a few characters have their own route)
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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#5 Post by SundownKid »

I don't think I'd like the idea, because then if I thought that most of the characters would die, I wouldn't allow myself to become attached to any of the characters because there is a greater chance than not that they will die.

In games like Danganronpa there is a smaller cast, and therefore less of a chance that any one character will die, even though there is still a chance someone will die. But it allows you to get more attached to characters and makes the deaths of others more impactful.

I also dont see how 100 characters could receive much if any development in a single video game.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#6 Post by RotGtIE »

I'm going to go with Vegas odds and say it won't happen.

I'm also going to thrust my unwanted opinion in and say it shouldn't.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#7 Post by Mammon »

If I think of a game with 100 characters I either imagine it to be like Attack on Titan meets shojo lengths of episodes, or a MMO with a lot of insignificant and forgettable characters. I'm not going to dismiss the possibility of it working but I do think it'll be unlikely to happen. In most MMO's there probably are +100 characters but even the main 12 characters are soon forgotten. And even in a longrunning shojo the cast would have to be slaughtered and replaced save for a few survivors every season for them to really get to 100 characters, or be a very long running show.

I actually doubt it. With a very big project I might see it happen but even then I highly doubt it. Also don't underestimate having to make the sprites for a 100 characters, people won't even be able to remember their names most likely so you'll have to make a 100 differently looking sprites to even stand a chance at making part of them memorable.
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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#8 Post by Parataxis »

I have what I'd consider an almost absurdly big cast for a visual novel at 50 characters and I am barely get away with it. I don't even have to make you care enough about 70% of them to make you feel something when they die. I am skeptical that a game with 100+ characters could work unless it's like, 60+ hours long. There's just only so quickly you can introduce/kill off characters and expect your audience to remember everyone. In terms of narrative effect, one character who your audience remembers is worth a dozen they hazily recognize. I have found that the optimum cast size for a VN is 20-25 characters, 30 if you have episodic casts that come and go in groups. Are you sure your story is impossible to tell with fewer characters?

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#9 Post by KittyWills »

Here's the thing. Instead of making 1 game with 100s of characters. Make 4 or 5 games set in the same universe using 20 characters. Think the Marvel or DC universe, they have 1000s of characters but you only see a couple at a time so not to overwhelm readers. Players are only able to remember so much information and if you're killing off characters left and right, I have no reason to try to remember or care about them.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#10 Post by JayBlue »

Parataxis wrote:I have found that the optimum cast size for a VN is 20-25 characters, 30 if you have episodic casts that come and go in groups. Are you sure your story is impossible to tell with fewer characters?
The story would work in arcs and be very episodic, like how anime like onepiece has story arcs.

It's possible to tell the story with less characters but the story might be a bit lackluster because of the story's layout and themes I would be using. Not to mention that it would indeed be a very big game.
KittyWills wrote:Here's the thing. Instead of making 1 game with 100s of characters. Make 4 or 5 games set in the same universe using 20 characters. Think the Marvel or DC universe, they have 1000s of characters but you only see a couple at a time so not to overwhelm readers.
I would probably use very large story arcs instead of individual games. I would reveal 10 or so characters each story arc. Each arc would probably have to be big enough to develop the cast, so that should help the player develop a connection to the characters. It would a trial and error kind of thing, probably.
Parataxis wrote:I have what I'd consider an almost absurdly big cast for a visual novel at 50 characters and I am barely get away with it.
I would like to play that game :)
firecat wrote:i have about 40 characters (side characters included) in my game, all do play a role but not all of them can be revealed all at once.
I would like to play that game too :)


So maybe the best way for me to go with this is to start small with the cast and see if the plot can support a larger cast as the story develops?
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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#11 Post by hikarinakano »

Touhou gets away with it, but that's because it's a series (it's a bullet hell game, if you aren't familiar with it).
In each game, there are usually 2 or 3 reused characters, and then the other 7 or 8 are new in every game. I think that Touhou has something like 129 characters now, or something ridiculous. And a significant amount of the cast is memorable, too. I think the reason for that is because every character has something very distinct about them, that makes them different in the mind. Usually it's a hat, though. I guess that's typical of a "small girls with hats" bullet hell game.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#12 Post by Vegeluxia »

Okay, now that I have context...

I'm still against a number as large as 100 for a single game---even episodic. If the goal is "keep people alive," the game would start to feel like it's dragging on, I think. For a series though, I can see it working if treated right.

1. 40% of throw away cast is an awful lot. Yeah, it's sad if Character A's brother dies, but if the brother character is just plot fodder, that definitely takes the effect down a notch. Especially if it continues to happen and my connection to Character A isn't very strong.

2. That would be a good way of approaching it. If all the routes had every character, that would get repetitive and old real quick. A single long running route also probably wouldn't be much better.

3. The Zero Escape games do this with a cast of only 9, and the plot branches off in like thirty directions. With 100, that sounds insane, and insanely hard to keep track of for both the creator and the player.

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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#13 Post by Parataxis »

I am still not getting the impression that you really understand what you're undertaking here. How long is this game? Story Arcs are fine, but by my math you have like 10 story arcs, minimum, for this game and not simple ones either if you're introducing 10 new characters in each one.

To give you an idea. My game is set up in 11 "episodes" each with a self contained plot. Let's say these are analogous to your "story arcs" mentioned above. The 50 characters I mentioned earlier includes every character with a sprite which means a lot of one-off and world building characters who show up in particular episodes and never again too. Here is a breakdown of the characters in each chapter:

(Episode 1): 10 Important Introduced, 0 Returning, 0 Worldbuilding Total: 10
(Episode 2): 2 Important Introduced, 3 Returning, 2 Worldbuilding Total: 7
(Episode 3A): 2 Important Introduced, 5 Returning, 0 Worldbuilding Total: 7
(Episode 3B): 4* Important Introduced, 1 Returning, 4 Worldbuilding Total: 9
(Episode 4): 1 Important Introduced, 6 Returning, 3 Worldbuilding Total: 10
(Episode 5A): 2" Important Introduced, 1 Returning, 3 Worldbuilding Total: 6
(Episode 5B): 2" Important Introduced, 1 Returning, 3 Worldbuilding Total: 6
(Episode 6): 0 Important Introduced, 7 Returning, 1 Worldbuilding Total: 8
(Episode 7): 1 Important Introduced, 7 Returning, 4 Worldbuilding Total: 12
(Episode 8 ): 1 Important Introduced, 10 Returning, 2 Worldbuilding Total: 13
(Episode 9): 0 Important Introduced, 6 Returning, 0 Worldbuilding Total: 6
(Episode 10): 0 Important Introduced, 15 Returning, 4 Worldbuilding Total: 19
(Episode 11): 0 Important Introduced, 8 Returning, 0 Worldbuilding Total: 8

Notice that as the plot goes on I gradually stop introducing characters and start bringing back old ones instead. This is because the plots set up early on needed to be drawn to a close. Returning characters are a great way to pay off your story for your player. But let's assume you aren't telling a story where characters can come back, fine. Note instead that with the exception of the first chapter I basically never introduce more than 2 important characters at a time. This gives me time for a strong introduction of the character and sufficient cool-down time so that they were fixed in the audience's memory before introduce anyone else to prevent me from overwhelming the audience. Each one of these episodes is like 1 hour of play meaning that I find a natural rate of memorable character introduction to be 1/half hour of play. (These aren't even particularly main characters, just characters who are going to appear again.)

So some math. Let's say that my rule of thumb reflects your main characters, and 2/3s of your villains. At 30 minutes per introduction for 15 characters you'd need a game minimum of 7.5 hours. This by the way factors in no time to develop any of those characters just establish them. So let's say your main characters and 1/3 of your villains need to be developed beyond their introduction, with half an hour of play time devoted to each spread throughout the game, that adds another 5 hours right there. So that's 12.5 hours, which is already pretty long for an indie game. But we're just getting started. Let's combine the rest of your villains and your major side characters into a single group. While some of these will be more important and some less, let's say that on average they require 15 minutes of introduction/development per character. That comes to another 11.25 HOURS of character introduction time--totaling 23.75 hours of play. Your non important characters would need to be introduced too if they have names and dialog--which I think we can agree is required to be considered a "character" here--and we need vaguely to at least acknowledge them when they die so let's block out 2 minutes per character, with an additional 40 characters that's 80 minutes, bringing our total to just over 25 hours, and I have not even touched the just basic plot building time you'll need to make the story work.

A conservative estimate for a visual novel is over 10,000 words per hour of gameplay. By my math by the time you are done with just the basic writing you will have written 2 full length novels. These are AAA development numbers. Not even counting how much art is involved.

Are you absolutely positive that these obscene numbers of characters are necessary? Fate/Stay Night, one of the longest and most involved Visual Novels of all time had 30-40 characters. What themes are you dealing with that could necessitate this size of a cast?

*One of these is an optional Cameo for a character who is properly introduced in a later chapter
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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#14 Post by truefaiterman »

You should be able to make it, but the story and atmosphere should be on a HUGE scale (I'm thinking about Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Legend of the Galactic Heroes or Game of Thrones scale here).

So yeah, if you think you have the skills and resources to pull that off, considering that a lot of long visual novels with like... 6 or 7 main characters can have more than 100,000 words and huge budgets... you can try...
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Re: Games with 100+ characters

#15 Post by JayBlue »

hikarinakano wrote:Touhou gets away with it, but that's because it's a series (it's a bullet hell game, if you aren't familiar with it).
In each game, there are usually 2 or 3 reused characters, and then the other 7 or 8 are new in every game. I think that Touhou has something like 129 characters now, or something ridiculous. And a significant amount of the cast is memorable, too. I think the reason for that is because every character has something very distinct about them, that makes them different in the mind. Usually it's a hat, though. I guess that's typical of a "small girls with hats" bullet hell game.
Yes, I've heard of Touhou. I learned about it from the "Bad Apple" video.
So making the characters different in both appearance and their mentality would probably help distinguish them. The character's appearance should be easy enough, but their mentality will take a bit of time. Not to mention that it all has to fit into the story.
Vegeluxia wrote:1. 40% of throw away cast is an awful lot. Yeah, it's sad if Character A's brother dies, but if the brother character is just plot fodder, that definitely takes the effect down a notch. Especially if it continues to happen and my connection to Character A isn't very strong.
Then the problem becomes trying to figuring out how to connect people to CharacterA's brother, like having him be important in routeB, and make CharacterA be plot fodder in that route. (This could work if I change which characters are important in different routes, excluding the main characters who should always be prominent to a greater or lesser extent.) Then maybe routeC would have both characters survive, but a different character dies instead. I guess it would be a case of mixing up the character roles for each route.
Vegeluxia wrote:2. That would be a good way of approaching it. If all the routes had every character, that would get repetitive and old real quick. A single long running route also probably wouldn't be much better.
As for which characters get routes, I guess the more important characters and maybe a bad guy should get routes. And to keep it interesting maybe a route could focus on a group (3 or 4 characters) of people instead of one staring character. Or maybe have a route focus on a concept? Maybe I could have routes focus on something else entirely? And then I would probably have a True End where a much smaller portion of the characters died. But then at that point, the players would probably have a favorite character and would get pissed if killed them in the True End.
Vegeluxia wrote:3. The Zero Escape games do this with a cast of only 9, and the plot branches off in like thirty directions. With 100, that sounds insane, and insanely hard to keep track of for both the creator and the player.
I haven't played the Zero Escape games. ...Just googled it, added it to my Christmas list. So maybe by adding a way to identify the characters would help players keep track of them? Perhaps I can use a method of categorizing the characters without making them generic. I'll have to see what I can do.
Parataxis wrote:I am still not getting the impression that you really understand what you're undertaking here. How long is this game? Story Arcs are fine, but by my math you have like 10 story arcs, minimum, for this game and not simple ones either if you're introducing 10 new characters in each one...
...Are you absolutely positive that these obscene numbers of characters are necessary? Fate/Stay Night, one of the longest and most involved Visual Novels of all time had 30-40 characters. What themes are you dealing with that could necessitate this size of a cast?
Responding to most of your post.

Yeah, that's roughly how I was wanting the story to work. I was planning the game to be very big. Big enough to support a 100 character cast. Granted, I didn't consider the math until now, but I guessed it'd take a few years to make depending on how I managed my time, which in turn would be affected by how many people I have helping me.

I like your ideas and how you manage your characters. As far as character introduction and development goes, I'll have to find methods to cut down the time but still be effective with the storytelling." A little bit of symbolism and a few CGs could help there.

I have played Fate/Stay Night. Loved it, and liked how they did the different routes.

The themes I would using would be like that of long running battle anime, survival games, mystery, and SRPGs. (This doesn't completely justify the use of 100 characters.) It would probably be the story/plot that would make the characters necessary and that's still a work in progress. But I would probably have multiple routes which would be different takes on the same story and I would be able to develop the characters more just like how Fate/Stay Night did in their routes. But then as a result I'd probably end up with characters like Rider who was a non-important character and didn't have much character development until the very last route. How did they make that work in Fate/Stay Night?

Yes I understand it would be a huge undertaking. It would be a very long and very big project. Aside from dealing with the story, art, audio, and code. I would have to manage everyone that would actually be willing to be apart of a project that size. But as I write the story, I could end up decreasing the size of the cast, or making multiple games, etc... Anyway, the first demo I put out won't be a complete game either way (maybe just chapter 1) and it won't by any possible means have that many characters. I'll probably just build up the story based on how well received it is.
truefaiterman wrote:You should be able to make it, but the story and atmosphere should be on a HUGE scale (I'm thinking about Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Legend of the Galactic Heroes or Game of Thrones scale here).

So yeah, if you think you have the skills and resources to pull that off, considering that a lot of long visual novels with like... 6 or 7 main characters can have more than 100,000 words and huge budgets... you can try...
Thank you. Yes, the story is going to be extremely huge, while leaving enough room for spinoff games. AndI should have the most of the resources I would need. I can handle the character art and music. I would just need a BG artist(s), SFX composer, and a Proofreader.
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