Terminology Thread

[Adorya]

Virtual still have a bad connotation as now...
Virtual as non existent, evasive, theoretical, geometry shaped 3D...and even sexual oriented so not quite good :p

[monele]

I know :/... I did think about that aspect of it but... I just don't like "software" or "program" and other technical terms. I keep seeing lines and lines of code or utilities... and not something fun and artistic like a game or a story. Yet, I do think it's important to represent the fact we're not talking about books or movies, but about something you run on a computer. Hence the "virtual" which is often related to computers nowadays (virtual world as opposed to the real world?). But maybe it's too vague and with bad connotations ...

[Adorya]

Well let's try to be imaginative and let's do like any japanese company do when they make a stunning logo : in engrish
Screen Novel/Game
LCD Novel/Game
Flat Novel/Game
E-Novel/Game (E for electronic)
I-Novel/Game (I for interactive)
Fairy Novel/Game
E-Fairy Novel/Game (...)
R'py Novel/Game
Lenpi Novel/Game

Sorry, out of wordplay for now

[Fox Lee]

I like "Narrative game", as sad as it is for KNs. If not, well... "Narrative experience"? That's a bit too elite eh? ^^;...

"Games" is unfortunate because it doesn't agree with purely VN projects... an eBook isn't a game, and a pure VN is essentially just an eBook with pictures. "Experience" doesn't have that problem, but it's very vague... I don't think it adds to the term. Also, "Narrative Experience" is long and awkward to say; it would probably wind up being shortened to "NE" anyway.

Not that acronyms are a bad idea - RPG has become well-known and describes its genre nicely (albeit with a somewhat different meaning in different countries, hence we now have "JRPG" to designate the kind of RPG which really doesn't have much RP to the G.

We could have something like "ING", for "Interactive Novel or Game" and/or "Interactive Narrative Game". Though, "Interactive" and "Game" are kinda redundant.

Also, perhaps, "Gamebook" comes to mind. It has a nice ring to it and it's short and sweet. It covers visual novels both interactive and non-interactive, kinetic novels, VNs with minigames or game elements (e.g. True Love) and games with VN elements. It does have another meaning - sourcebooks for tabletop RPGs - but that's relatively niche and unlikely to overlap (plus we gamers also have "sourcebook" and "rulebook" for those - three terms is just greedy ;p). It still includes "game", but since that word is part of a compound word rather than standing on its own, it doesn't necessarily imply the normal meaning of "game" to a VN which isn't necessarily a game.

I think I rather like this one.

[Neon Lemmy Koopa]

I think Interactive Novel sounds good. Gamebook IMO doesnt sound too appealing. To me it sounds like some kind of 1980's computer or console. But thats just me.

[Jake]

That's exactly why I said that current term of RPG is "bad" since it's not exactly role-playing as you anymore. And it still a role-playing (as Cloud or other characters), it's just branching from original RPG. I think early FF (NES JPN FF1) doesn't have real characters like modern FF.

But when you were "role-playing as you", you weren't really role-playing at all; you didn't have a role. Unless you want to re-categorise Doom as a role-playing game...?

People have been role-playing in the theatre/FFVII sense for millennia, literally, but people have only been playing computer games for a tiny fraction of one.

[LVUER]

I think Doom creator never want you to enjoy the game's story or anything that RPG developers want you (gamer) to. Doom is created so you could be trigger-happy, shooting everything that moves (no brain, just shoot).

Besides, Doom lacks lots of thing to be called an RPG.

[monele]

Gamebook mostly reminds me of Choose Your Own Adventure books . Which... in a sense, is what most VNs are.
Interactive Novel doesn't sound bad. It's actually probably closer to truth than the Visual Novel we use... but does it encompass Sims and other hybrids properly? Maybe. One could say a VN has interactivity (but not much) while a VN hybrid has lots of interactivity. Both *are* interactive, at different levels, and both have a focus on storytelling, hence the Novel.

And Novel could probably swapped with other words such as Story or Tale. Is "novel" the best word? Doesn't it imply a work of some length?

[Jake]

I think Doom creator never want you to enjoy the game's story or anything that RPG developers want you (gamer) to. Doom is created so you could be trigger-happy, shooting everything that moves (no brain, just shoot).

Doom has a story. It might not be high literature, but it has one. And you need at least a rudiment of a brain, because you need to solve rudimentary coloured-key puzzles. The question is "what does (say) Fallout have that Doom doesn't have, and which of those things qualifies it as an RPG?" What are those "lots of things" which Doom lacks? Because you're certainly playing a role in Doom, even if it's not a very well-developed one.

If you want to make a completely arbitrary distinction that the computer game genre that is generally known as "Western RPG" is what you want to think about, then fine. Just be aware that the "Western RPG" genre doesn't really involve any more or any less role-playing than the JRPG genre, and also often includes games like Diablo, which are more closely related to Doom than Baldur's Gate.

[delta]

There is a Doom RPG, look it up.

In the most real-world meaning of the term, an RPG is a "game with play mechanics focused on character stat building", nothing more, nothing less. If hit has that plus something else, it's a game of another genre or hybrid (most of what we consider "classic RPGs" have heavy strategy elements, but that's not really a requirement). That storytelling lends itself to such a game easier than most others is a side effect.

[Jake]

"game with play mechanics focused on character stat building", nothing more, nothing less.

So Championship Manager is an RPG in the same sense as Baldur's Gate or FFVII?

But really, I'm not talking about 'RPG's, I'm talking about 'roleplaying'. Which is far older than RPGs, and still probably more widespread. And pretty much universally involves playing someone other than yourself, one way or another. The point is that saying JRPGs are "the kind of RPG which really doesn't have much RP to the G" is pretty weird, because really, they just have a totally different brand of roleplaying to most Bioware games.

(And roleplaying is traditionally about interacting and communicating with others in the assumed role, regardless of how much choice you get; so Championship Manager wouldn't be roleplaying, because none of your interactions are really within the role; neither would Doom, because you basically don't communicate at all, you just shoot stuff. But Baldur's Gate, FFVII, pretty much any first-person VN and people who do historical re-enactments are all sharing that same nugget.)

[delta]

Seriously, there is not a single computer game in existence that comes even close to what you mean by the term "roleplaying". Even Baldur's Gate does not even come close, and is more similar to Pong than to a D&D session when the chips are down. And just about any VN I've ever seen has far less depth than that, because you're always completely on rails - you don't PLAY the role, you ACT OUT the role. We can now coin the term "Role Acting Out Games" and move on.

[LVUER]

Of course Doom has story. I don't know whether Pong has it too but most games have stories. The point (at least for me) is what the developer wants/objective. One of most simple (and lazy) is to ask Doom creator (forget the name) whether Doom is intended/created as RPG or not.

How about Grand Theft Auto? Although it seems not like it, recent GTA (starting GTA 3, I think) has lots of RPG elements. So much that we could starting called it RPG. Characters customization, stats growth, equipments, side-quest, plot and character developments, etc. But is GTA RPG?

What Doom lacks as an RPG? If we set aside hybrid RPG concepts, then for sure it lacks stat buildings.

As you can see that nowadays, there are lots of game crossing their own genre, creating hybrid games (consciously or not), bluring the barrier between genre.

But I think the developer still wants the game categorized as one of the genre although it's not necessarily "correct" anymore.

There is Fallout and then Fallout Tactics. Final Fantasy and then Final Fantasy Tactics (which has lots of RPG elements). How about Square's Racing Lagoon (a racing RPG)? Rockman X and Rockman Command Mission?

If we want to define correct terms, rather than popular terms/seemingly correct and widely accepted terms; that's a tough job. Do it right and who knows we can "legalized" the terms and put it in Cambridge English Dictionary ^_^ (and LSF is credited for it).

[Fox Lee]

But really, I'm not talking about 'RPG's, I'm talking about 'roleplaying'. Which is far older than RPGs, and still probably more widespread. And pretty much universally involves playing someone other than yourself, one way or another. The point is that saying JRPGs are "the kind of RPG which really doesn't have much RP to the G" is pretty weird, because really, they just have a totally different brand of roleplaying to most Bioware games.

As the person who made that remark, I stand by it. You will rarely find a JRPG which gives you much opportunity to express a character's personality (whether it's a personality you define yourself, or a pre-defined one) rather than making you just float along and do what your friends want you to do. I'm not saying that's wrong - I'm a sucker for JRPGS (Eternal Arcadia and Suikoden II are two of my all-time favourite games). I'm not saying it's not an RPG - of course it is. But it's hard to argue that it really involves much "roleplaying" - trying to act according to the personality/PoV of a given character - any more than does any other game which gives you control of one character during gameplay.

Again, I say "much". There are usually some choices. And I'm not saying that no JRPG has lots of roleplay elements. It's just a general rule.

I suppose you could argue that the "silent protagonist" genre is its own kind of roleplaying, because it's designed to encourage the player to project themselves onto the protagonist's blank parts, but I don't really buy that myself.