Lemma Soft Forums

So, I was thinking a little about terminology. We have the terms Kinetic Novel for completely linear story, Visual Novel for story + menus without looping, and various types of Sim games. But I'm thinking that there needs to be a term that covers visual novels, sims, and all other forms of story-centric games.

So I'm thinking we should call these "Story Games".

I think this is becoming a more relevant category as we gain experience and attempt more sophisticated forms of gameplay. We have the card game engine, and now the walkabout engine is underway... so I think Story Games are now our expanded focus.

Thoughts?

Simulations can have a story element, but they are not any more "story-centric" than, say, rpgs, or adventure games. And strictly linear visual novels are not games at all.

Mmm... Interestingly enough, this topic came up in my class about fiction writing. My professor referred to the various computer based stories that are popping up lately as "new media fiction." (Stories in RPGs, visual novels, stories made in PowerPoint, machinima, etc) Sounds kind of scholarly and boring, as you would well expect from a college professor, but I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. ._.;

I commonly use the term "story-based game" to refer to games which are based on some sort of story. This includes games of all genres - simulations, rpgs, action games, even puzzle games. It does not include movies, strictly linear visual novels, or other strictly linear books, because these are not games.

I guess "storytelling applications" would work to restrict the term to stand-alone computer programs (excluding movies and plain-text books), while including non-game programs such as strictly linear visual novels. However, it's an awkward term, and I'm not really fond of it.

"Interactive multimedia story" sound ugly but this should be the correct statement to cover nearly every type.

Side question : when does it stop being a Visual Novel and starts being a Sim or RPG or Race game?
Example: does a RPG stop being an RPG because it has a fishing mini-game? If so, would a VN stop being a VN if it has a racing mini-game? I think I remember some people saying VNs could not include any gaming element more than simple menu choices lest it became something else.

Also, would Metal Gear Solid be a Story Game? Would Chrono Trigger be a Story Game? (just trying to wrap my mind around what would be included and not ^^;...)

monele wrote:Side question : when does it stop being a Visual Novel and starts being a Sim or RPG or Race game?

To me, it stops being a visual novel when the VN part is no longer the main focus of the game; when either telling a story itself is sidelined in favour of something else, or when the story is mostly told through another process.

For example, Guilty Gear X has VN-like segments in between fights, but while there is a story, it's definitely a sideline to the fighting part, so it's hard to call it a VN. On the other hand, Hotel Dusk had puzzles and a 2.5D first-person walking engine, but the story was quite definitely the driver for the game, so it's still a VN to me.

monele wrote: Also, would Metal Gear Solid be a Story Game? Would Chrono Trigger be a Story Game?

To be honest, I have a bit of a problem with the term 'Story Game'. Deus Ex, to me, is a 'story game'; it's a story and it's a game, and the story is not only integrated with, but told through the game, and the game directly affects and interacts with the story. There's no clear delineation where you can separate out all the story bits and all the game bits into different piles; too much of the game would be in both piles.

Metal Gear Solid is a story and a game, but the game doesn't affect the story... and really, the story doesn't affect the game a great deal. For the most part, you can divide the game parts (tactical espionage action) from the story parts (codec and cut scenes). Same with most JRPGs. It seems to me that a more interesting question is where things like Braid lie, where the story-parts and the game-parts are mostly totally distinct, but there are bits of each which make you think differently about the other.

So to my mind, we have a choice. Maybe we need a new term for whatever Deus Ex is, maybe we need a term to cover examples like MGS, where the game does have a coherent story, which is told over the course of the game, but the two could plausibly be separated. Maybe we just need to consider that these are two ends of a very long scale and there's a lot of stuff in between.



As it goes, personally I'd just suggest 'interactive fiction'. It's already in use by the text-adventure guys, who are doing a lot more these days than simple "go north; pick up key" stuff, but really - it perfectly describes everything that's game-like and to do with storytelling. So-called kinetic novels don't really fit into this description, but as soon as you have any choices a VN does... and it ties in with the old 'interactive movie' style of game, most of which were essentially VNs with animated/FMV dialogue sections.

If you wish to avoid confusion I suggest you stick as few terms as possible.
"Story game" is awfully generic.

While I cringe at "interactive fiction" because of all the text-oriented approach it evokes to me, it's err... well... the words totally encompass our VNs. But then again, it would encompass Deus Ex (which I suppose would be a good thing), but maybe also other things as long as there's a bit of story. What about point'n'click adventure games? Aren't they interactive fiction?

Actually, another question is : what do we want to encompass with the new term?

monele wrote:While I cringe at "interactive fiction" because of all the text-oriented approach it evokes to me, it's err... well... the words totally encompass our VNs. But then again, it would encompass Deus Ex (which I suppose would be a good thing), but maybe also other things as long as there's a bit of story. What about point'n'click adventure games? Aren't they interactive fiction?

Actually, another question is : what do we want to encompass with the new term?

Point'n click are referred to "interactive adventures" if I recall.

Trying to come up with overly-generic over-arcing categories is probably not very helpful... if it means a huge variety of games, then it may as well not mean anything, it won't help people find what they want.

Pinning things down into specifics is more useful because at least then you can identify "more games like this"... sometimes.

On the other hand, Hotel Dusk had puzzles and a 2.5D first-person walking engine, but the story was quite definitely the driver for the game, so it's still a VN to me.

I haven't played Hotel Dusk yet, but from this description I am guessing it is more a VN than Another Code / Trace Memory is (stupid regional naming schemes making it difficult to talk about the game!). Trace Memory has a plot, sure, but most of the time in the game is really spent wandering around exploring and solving puzzles.

However, I'd probably put both those games and Phoenix Wright and Fatal Hearts and *maybe* Professor Layton into the same category.

But from what I understand from reviews, Time Hollow would *not* fall into that category, because there's no actual puzzle-solving as such. (I'm not totally sure about this, but one review said so.) It would instead end up being filed closer to Divi-Dead, for the same sort of struggling around trying to find the way to proceed, when there is only one way but you have to keep wandering around the map trying to find it. (Could be wrong, don't have the game.)

papillon wrote: I haven't played Hotel Dusk yet, but from this description I am guessing it is more a VN than Another Code

Yes - Another Code was a puzzle game with VN bits; Hotel Dusk is a VN with puzzle game bits.

(More precisely, Another Code had about three characters of any significance, conversations only where necessary and a plot that was only just propping up the puzzle sections, while Hotel Dusk has a good ten or so, has several whole sub-plots explored through conversation, with a story that's a driver in its own right. I thought Another Code was an excellent demonstration of all the cool stuff the DS could do, but not so great a game.)

If I were to put Another Code, Hotel Dusk and the Phoenix Wright games into the same category, it'd be a pretty broad category of something along the lines of "games with VN bits and puzzle bits"... which could also arguably include any straight-up multi-path mystery VN with no 'gimmick' parts...

monele wrote:Example: does a RPG stop being an RPG because it has a fishing mini-game?

No, it starts being an RPG because it has a fishing mini-game. RPGs consist of the following elements:

• A complete world. (<-- The most important part.)
• A player character or a party of player characters.
• Some sort of story or goal.
• Some sort of challenges.
• Some sort of character growth.

Combat is a common choice of challenge, but it is not the only one. A fishing game is an equally valid choice. Replace the combat in any rpg with a fishing mini-game, and it is still just as much of an rpg.

If so, would a VN stop being a VN if it has a racing mini-game?

Depends on the role of the mini-game. Optional extras don't count.

On the other hand, even "pure" racing games often have story-telling segments. Adding story-telling segments to a game doesn't change the essential nature of the game. A game with a strong focus on story is still a game. And a game is not a really visual novel because a visual novel is not really a game.

definitions of 'cRPG'

* A complete world. (<-- The most important part.)
* A player character or a party of player characters.
* Some sort of story or goal.
* Some sort of challenges.
* Some sort of character growth.

That's vague enough to cover a wide range of non-RPGs, while leaving out roguelikes for lack of world.

I point back to http://www.rampantgames.com/blog/2006/1 ... t-rpg.html for what I consider a reasonably detailed explanation.

Recently there has been a sort of "fusion" of several different gaming styles. On portals (casual games) too: match3 mixed with stories (4 elements), adventures with tons of minigames (azada) and more. I really don't know if we should invent a new word to call them "properly".
Personally I would just call them based on the predominant gamestyle. Azada for example is a puzzle game: sure there is a story, but for 90% of the playing time the player will be solving puzzles, not reading texts. In my upcoming game Heileen there are "quests" (small subplot to complete based on menu choices) but surely the game is NOT a rpg, because the main part is still a classic visual novel.