How does one usually work with a programmer?

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GeeSeki
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How does one usually work with a programmer?

#1 Post by GeeSeki »

So I am working on a game, a the moment its a one man team but I'm soon thinking of bringing on along a programmer to do the bulk if not all of the coding for the game. How does one usually work with them? Do I just give them all the files so that they can fix and add lines of code and when they're done, they send it back to me. Should I be paranoid about them stealing the game and claiming it as their own along with my art assets (which may be needed to properly test the game). Etc etc. I'm really new to all this obviously.

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#2 Post by 磯七ラスミ »

I wouldn't hire a person that I don't trust.

If you are only two people, you should partition the project in two (or you can get a bigger share because is your idea).

As an advice, make sure individual work doesn't delay the other's. The more self-dependent, the faster things will be done (and neater).

For a VN, it looks easy. You give him/her the assets and overall instructions about how you expect thing to be done. Remember to keep enough space to both feel cozy and agreeing with respective roles in the team.

I'm a programmer myself, but an inexperienced programmer. I have a little understanding about teamwork, but I hope I can help with my thoughts.

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#3 Post by RotGtIE »

Everyone who is not in charge of the project appreciates having good direction, and programmers are no exception to this. My recommendation is that you provide direction to your programmer through the use of screenplay documents - documents which contain clear and precise instructions detailing absolutely everything that is meant to occur in a particular section of the VN. The more specific your instructions are, the fewer decisions your programmer will have to make on his own, and the fewer corrections you'll have to make after a test build is produced. Measure twice, cut once.

If you are paying your programmer, you should have at least an informal contract with them detailing what is expected of them, what is expected of you, and any terms and conditions regarding adjustments, cancellations, and distribution of completed works. I wouldn't expect to have real legal power from informal contracts, but they do help tremendously in settling disputes before they get out of hand. If you are worried about your programmer flaking out or just getting hit by a bus, the best way to prepare for that is to ensure you know what engine they are working in, so that if anything happens which causes them to break from the project, you can at least recover their work and find someone who can fill in their position. Have a common directory where work on the project is uploaded - Dropbox and Google Drive are effective candidates for this - so that you don't have to lose any productivity if you lose project members partway through development.

Your programmer can produce test builds of the VN without having all the assets ready. While they are still waiting on a finished asset, they can use a placeholder instead - DMB's test builds use pastel-colored boxes in place of unfinished illustrations, for example. You can also use sketches or simple shapes if you really need to. As assets go, you really don't need a damn thing finished before you can start producing test builds - apart from the finished script.

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#4 Post by Mammon »

GeeSeki wrote:bringing on along a programmer to do the bulk if not all of the coding for the game. How does one usually work with them? Do I just give them all the files so that they can fix and add lines of code and when they're done, they send it back to me.
This is actually something I too was wondering about, and which might be part of GeeSeki's question, what work do you shove off on the programmer? I have a faint idea of what they do, but the exact outlines are vague.
The maximum size of what they can do assuming it's a 2-man team of writer&programmer, some are obviously their part, others I'm not too sure of.
-Script to code; putting the script into editra
-Finding art (assuming Creative Commons assets)
-Defining images, changing their names to be easier to work with and 'image x = "image/x.png"' etc.
-The commands, from 'scene' to the persistents.
-The expressions etc. appearing at the right moments of the script
-Finding the music files
-Adding the music files to the script
-Proofreading
-Alpha testing
-Beta testing/finding betatesters

I added all the steps I could imagine being their task. Some like the finding art assets seem clearly not their task, but with the music I'm much more conflicted whether it is or not even though it's the same task in essence. And I wouldn't even know whether a programmer actually reads the story as they're coding it and thus act as a proofreader. And are there any tasks that I forgot to list?
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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#5 Post by trooper6 »

As a programmer I would not find the art and the music. That is the job of the project director. If you want me to be the project director, I'd want to be paid for that separately. But if you are the one hiring the programmer...then you are the project director, no?
Also, I'm not doing proofreading either. If you want me to proofread, then hire me as an editor.

As for the expressions appearing at the right moments of the script. I'll put them in there, but you have to tell me what you want.

Give me your files, tell me what you want to happen (preferably in script format). Then I'll make it happen.

I will alpha test the code to make sure it works.
Beta testing? That is also on you as the project director. If you find problems, bring them to me and I'll fix them.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#6 Post by Mammon »

trooper6 wrote:As a programmer I would not find the art and the music. That is the job of the project director. If you want me to be the project director, I'd want to be paid for that separately. But if you are the one hiring the programmer...then you are the project director, no?
Also, I'm not doing proofreading either. If you want me to proofread, then hire me as an editor.
As for the expressions appearing at the right moments of the script. I'll put them in there, but you have to tell me what you want.
Give me your files, tell me what you want to happen (preferably in script format). Then I'll make it happen.
I will alpha test the code to make sure it works.
Beta testing? That is also on you as the project director. If you find problems, bring them to me and I'll fix them.
Thank you, those doubts have really been bothering me to the point where I can imagine just doing all the coding myself to prevent that whole debacle. The art was indeed logical not to be their responsibility, but the proofreading for example not. When I made P&Y I proofread while coding and I could decide what expression would fit where as well, which made sense considering I was the writer. But I can have such doubts with almost all the tasks to the point where the programmer would only need to do step 4, and I can do that one myself with greater ease than finding someone to do it. Well, except for changing the main menu etc. but that's GUI.

One last question: when you say you'd prefer it in script format, that just means something like a Word file, right? The whole thing with adding the brackets around the sentences and such (which can't be done while writing because the Word ' is a different symbol than the Editra ' ) falls under the programmer's juristiction?
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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#7 Post by trooper6 »

When I said script format, I meant like a screenplay or a script with directions so I know what expressions to give the characters or where to place them/move them:

Jane moves in from the left standing on th left side of the screen. She is angry.
Narrator: It was a great day for everyone but Jane.
Jane: Where is she? I'll kill her if I find her!
Narrator: Suddenly, the sound of a wolf echos from nearby (play wolf howl)
Jane frightened: What was that?

You tell me that what you want, what your vision is, and I'll give it to you. But I have to know what your vision is. Now if we are collaborating, that might be different. But if you just want me to put your game together, tell me that what you want want and I'll get be you what you want.

As for proofing, I'm a professional writer, so that is a skill I have. But not all programmers are good proofreaders. So... I wouldn't expect that service to be done or done well unless you negotiate that.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#8 Post by GeeSeki »

磯七ラスミ wrote:I wouldn't hire a person that I don't trust.
A simple statement yet it flew over my head.
RotGtIE wrote:My recommendation is that you provide direction to your programmer through the use of screenplay documents
Okay, noted. Obviously they needed the screenplay but it didn't occur to me how much more direction and instruction would help the both of us.
RotGtIE wrote:If you are paying your programmer, you should have at least an informal contract with them
That's definitely a good idea, I knew that I should make one but I wasn't sure how to make one properly and if it needed to be properly legalised and all that jazz.
trooper6 wrote:As a programmer I would not find the art and the music. That is the job of the project director. If you want me to be the project director, I'd want to be paid for that separately. But if you are the one hiring the programmer...then you are the project director, no?
Also, I'm not doing proofreading either. If you want me to proofread, then hire me as an editor.
Art, writing and proofreading would definitely be my job. I didn't really think of myself as the project manager but I guess I am. With music, I could probably freelance a musician for something and to get the rights to use it in the game.

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#9 Post by juunishi master »

*a wild programmer appeared

Maybe I'll share my experience and preference here. Hope it helps.

- Give us the details
I'll use map system as an example.

Please do: "I want this spot to glow, y'know, outer glow? When you hover it. And also the name of the place shown on the screen. After you click/tap on the spot, zoom in a little/show a confirmation pop-up/play a sound then darken the screen and go to the place."

Please don't: "I want this game to have a map system."

I know very well that a prototype for visual novel won't be as detail as I wrote above, but I kinda prefer to be asked too much rather than to be asked too little (which usuallu ended up in I'm being the one who asked too many questions; which I reluctantly do orz)

You can use whatever media for these details, btw, in my case. Video reference, game design document, screen mockup, screen flow diagram with separated one page pitch, etc.

- Poke us sometimes
Please do: poke us every day (or as agreed schedule) for some progress report/discussion/answer-questions.

Please don't: poke us every hour--or, worse--every 15 minutes. :(

Some complicated coding need long span attention. :| And not every programmer think in the same speed (due to many factors); programmer A might spend 1 hour to solve a thing that could be solved by programmer B in 15 minutes. When you poke programmer A when s/he hasn't finished coding a feature, s/he might need to rework the train of thoughts from the beginning.

And please don't go MIA too. :? Programmers tend to find something unthinkable when working on a thing or two. S/he will need to handle it and how to handle it probably affects the whole game.

- In send the files/project folders
I prefer Google Drive and Dropbox, although there's a chance of conflict when editing the same file. (Some programmers work with versioning tools. It's convenience for us, but I don't really want to confuse people with my explanation, so move on.)

Emailing back and forth ... I can work with that, but ask your programmer if s/he's okay with emailing back and forth.

- Work scope?
It differs with different programmers for this case. Our first priority is doing the programming, everything else is second, third, etc. If you ever meet a programmer that reluctantly look for placeholder assets, that's probably his/her reason.

I usually said to my client: "provide me the assets, tell me what I gotta do, and I'll work on it".

In my case, I don't mind if you ask me for artwork/sound/bgm suggestion as long as I don't currently have a programming task at hand.

- Are you going to steal my asset?
As a programmer, I prefer to "steal" other people's code rather than assets. It's about morality and profesionalism, I guess. But, honestly, some good assets are really tempting. (I especially attracted to paid assets from asset store, not a unique original asset not available anywhere else)

If you're worried about this, I can suggest you to give the programmer the placeholder asset. A blue rectangle with characters's name and his/her expression written on it?

==

That's all for me, I guess. Hope it helps clear things up?

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#10 Post by trooper6 »

juunishi master wrote: - Are you going to steal my asset?
As a programmer, I prefer to "steal" other people's code rather than assets. It's about morality and profesionalism, I guess. But, honestly, some good assets are really tempting. (I especially attracted to paid assets from asset store, not a unique original asset not available anywhere else)

If you're worried about this, I can suggest you to give the programmer the placeholder asset. A blue rectangle with characters's name and his/her expression written on it?
I'd prefer the actual assets, especially if I'm going to be asked the do complicated animations, movement, placement, etc. I work really hard today make sure everything is placed just right. That everything is placed well. I have worked with placeholder assets before. What that has usually meant is that I do all this work placing and animating the assets...then when I get final assets... I have to redo placement. Just give me the assets, tell me what you want, then I'll do it.

Also, I'm not going to steal your assets. That isn't honorable or ethical. And I'll be happy to sign a contract saying so.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

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Re: How does one usually work with a programmer?

#11 Post by juunishi master »

trooper6 wrote:
juunishi master wrote: - Are you going to steal my asset?
As a programmer, I prefer to "steal" other people's code rather than assets. It's about morality and profesionalism, I guess. But, honestly, some good assets are really tempting. (I especially attracted to paid assets from asset store, not a unique original asset not available anywhere else)

If you're worried about this, I can suggest you to give the programmer the placeholder asset. A blue rectangle with characters's name and his/her expression written on it?
I'd prefer the actual assets, especially if I'm going to be asked the do complicated animations, movement, placement, etc. I work really hard today make sure everything is placed just right. That everything is placed well. I have worked with placeholder assets before. What that has usually meant is that I do all this work placing and animating the assets...then when I get final assets... I have to redo placement. Just give me the assets, tell me what you want, then I'll do it.
OMG, you're right. I forget about the animation part. orz I was thinking about static character sprite in VN when wrote the reply above. I'm sorry.

trooper6 is right. If it's animation programming that you need, we're gonna need the real asset to work on.
Also, I'm not going to steal your assets. That isn't honorable or ethical. And I'll be happy to sign a contract saying so.
I'm with trooper6 too in this one. Stealing asset is almost the same like a doctor that poisoning you instead of healing you.

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