Sup guys? I'm about to go to bed, but I figured I would say that this discussion is also hella OLD and the question of why no one cares about OELVNs has been answered already. Right here. Of course the majority of you will probably act like little kids and ignore it, but it's your loss, as it is quite enlightening. Check it out:
Since this discussion seems to be a good opportunity to bring this up, I'll zoom out to something fundamental, and actually I don't expect everyone to agree, even the forum regulars...
but it's on my mind, so here it goes:
I had a discussion with a friend some time ago about how it is more important for this board to be nice, than to try to help - if ever these two things should come into conflict. In essence if you'd ask whether that means "when in doubt, sugar-coat your comments", that's exactly what it means.
I will agree of course, that the tone of the posts in question wasn't anything of chan board caliber, and I'd also agree that this would be perfectly acceptable in a typical anime board. However, for LSF, it's still too sharp, and many people explained what it was that got them a bit upset about the way the posts were made. Of course the logical outcome will be accusation that LSF is hypocritical, that they never want to call things by their true names, but this is the price to pay. I'm much happier if the LSF is being perceived as a community of people who stroke each other's backs and overlook faults in their games, since I think it's actually the purpose of LSF to motivate and help people to finish their games, rather than it is to get people to achieve some kind of excellence.
This may be a reason (not the only one, of course) why some of the more ambitious projects are developed outside the community. LSF has this amateur aura and associating with the community usually has this negative connotation - recently I've found quite a number of negative references to Ren'Py/LSF. But as the number of projects grow, it is also a good time to remember what the actual purpose of LSF is.
For me, it's supporting people in making their games, especially those who never made any. Inspiration, rather than training. You can see it as primary school - the most important is to understand the medium and what one can do with it - what you do next - stay at LSF, or make your own team and forums - is up to you.
Usually people who are already established in one way or the other and want to start their main production on the forums will want a different attitude from the comments - more precise, to the point, direct, without needing to make everything relative by saying "oh but that's just my opinion, and there's no harm in making a different decision regarding [something]". I think often a lot of the frustration of existing or even longtime members of LSF comes from the fact that it's really in this primary-school level, that LSF doesn't help anyone to expand and grow once they have grasped the basics. It's great for making your first VN, but probably not so great for your large and ambitious project, the "real deal", so to say. For that, you need clarity and direct and honest opinions from your team members or potential audience as well as a direction. Coming to the LSF for this kind of feedback however, will often end up in frustration because here, everything is more or less relative.
Again, as you will have noticed, this relates only marginally to the ongoing discussion about having arguments on the forums. Also, it doesn't mean you can't make an ambitious project through the LSF. But if people need more space, where there are their rules in order to advance to the next level, then the LSF primary school of VN-making may not be the right place.
Not to undermine the significance of LSF or to suggest that primary school is less important than high school or university - it's just to really think about the different approach. The forums have to have at least a general focus, a primary objective, and that to me would be supporting the very beginners. It doesn't mean the forum is full of beginners, but it does explain why it's so crucial to be over-polite and think about how people may take your comments, admittedly more than in other communities.
"I do, to an extent understand what you mean by "doesn't start off with a hook" and I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion. However, Nicol, you phrased it in a much better way than A22. "
Translation: "Lawl I agree with everything but the phrasing was not simple enough so I totally misunderstood and took it as trolling."
I'd say this really brings it to the point - it really is only in the way of saying it. Let's call it having more simplicity in statements, being more civil, descending to the LSF's sugar-coating of words, whatever term works for you. But this should have been done, and the argument would have been avoided.
And if you'd ask why one would need all this extra care in formulating things - that would be the whole primary school theory, asking ourselves what really is the purpose of the forums.
Again, I don't expect even the forum regulars to agree with me, but I really think that it's more important for LSF to be all nice and avoiding conflicts, than it is to help people if there ever should be a conflict between these two.
Courtesy of Mikey, BTW.
tl;dr you guys would rather be nice than actually provide criticism. That is why outside of this insular community, OELVNs(and LSF) are seen as a joke, because this is the forefront and you'd all rather circlejerk than work towards accomplishing something good. Which is apparently what you want. News to me. This is ESPECIALLY hilarious because Noughts just brought up how the problem might be people wanting to just make a VN, not a good VN. Hilarious because "hey any VN is better than no VN" is, according to mikey, the philosophy of LSF.