Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#31 Post by trooper6 »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:Fair point. I suspect much of Jack's audience is the already existing VN market, which skews his results. Though it is a relevant piece of information - if you are releasing a VN and wish to attract an audience from existing genre fans anime-style art is a safer (i.e. more profitable) bet.
I agree, there is merit to that. There was even a blog post on gamastra (I think) once, that basically said, if you want to be a professional VN developer, what you need to make is anime art style dating sims set in high schools. And I'm sure that is the safest way to go. But there have been notable exceptions...and if someone really wants to make visual novels for people who "hate" visual novels...novelty might be an avenue to pursue.
LateWhiteRabbit wrote:
trooper6 wrote:I'd like more games not set in a high school at all.
Well, yes. I don't want more games set in a high school myself, but I thought it was a pertinent example, since high schools are different all around the world, yet most developers never set a game in their own country's high school system, instead choosing the 'exotic' setting of a Japanese high school. I'll admit, 25 years ago I found the Japanese high school setting unique, interesting, and exotic, but, as they say, "familiarity breeds contempt".
Just agreeing again. While I'm a bit fatigued with high school stories in general, I would be interested high school stories set in places other than the US and Japan. I would be really interested in a VN set in a Brazilian High School. I'd be especially interested if it weren't a dating sim. Coming of age set in a Brazilian High School? That sounds cool!
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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#32 Post by Pommy »

trooper6 wrote: Just agreeing again. While I'm a bit fatigued with high school stories in general, I would be interested high school stories set in places other than the US and Japan. I would be really interested in a VN set in a Brazilian High School. I'd be especially interested if it weren't a dating sim. Coming of age set in a Brazilian High School? That sounds cool!
This is very much what I've been thinking while mulling over the whole idea of high school-based stories, games, and visual novels and why they just do not appeal to me any longer. Japan and the US high school settings can, for sure, breed interesting content, but it's such well-worn territory that it's hard to get all that excited about those kinds of settings and stories any more. I'm far more interested in learning more about someone and their work if they can produce some work of fiction that ties deeply to their own experiences somehow.

From a creator's standpoint, I can see both wanting to make a thing similar to your interests that may have inspired you, and that it's definitely the most popular setting, but in my experience, folks that aren't already plugged into anime, manga, and visual novels just do not want to try and connect with it be it due to just not liking those mediums or preconceived notions of what those kinds of stories and characters are.

When I struck out into the world of VN creation it was out of my own desire to do something deliberately NOT that. If you wanna see change, try doing something yourself and all that. By doing so, I knew I'd be limiting my audience substantially because the audience that enjoys more anime-inspired things will mostly put off by it, but at the same time maybe someone who isn't necessarily into VNs might give it a shot and think, "Hey, that wasn't so bad," and maybe want to check out other things in the medium.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#33 Post by rito »

In regards to art style, I do think that reasoning must apply to traditional VN haters the same way Overwatch and Splatoon were the first shooters to interest me ever. Of course, I'm not going to argue with a pro, but I do think there must be a way to make VNs more welcoming through art style.

Now, this isn't too pertinent to the theme of the thread itself, but I thought I had to add my two cents from personal experience:
High school in Brazil is boring. We don't have a tradition of after school activities; generally we get to school at 7 and go home around 1, and when we don't, it's because there's more normal class. I don't mean there's nothing fun for teenagers to do in Brazil, but if it's school life you want, some settings are better than others. (On the other hand, college was fun and I might dig a Brazilian college life story.)

I'll be the first to admit that, when I see "Japanese high school", I tend to close the tab. However, if the art is superb, or there's a good reason for it to be set in Japan, I'm more willing to give it a chance. In those cases, my advice would be simply "make an outstanding product". You're free to write about what you want, but you'd better give me a good reason to play your game over 50 others with the exact same premise.
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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#34 Post by gas »

Oh, what a lot of topics here to discuss!

I'll be VERY verbose.

A: whatever you think, Visual Novels ARE NOT GAMES.
A game need these things to qualify as a game:
-Manageable randomness
-Offer choices of action
-You can develop a skill to turn the odds
-A goal to reach
-You can fail to reach that goal.
So, whatever you do, WHATEVER, a visual novel can't be a game. When the game begin, the visual novel end, and viceversa. That's a game making dogma by game designers of renown (one is Richard Garfield).
The moment you add gameplay, you're killing the visual novel.

B: Visual novels ARE anime surrogates.
Whatever you think, believe, keep faith into, you approach visual novels as once you were an anime/manga fan.
So, stories and visuals you expect for are these.
Please remember how YOU come in contact with visual novels. It's the same path for everyone.
That's why Visual Novels are purchased.
And that's for a reason.
The casual arcade player manage his time in search of quick and gratifying experiences.
Manga/anime fan is already, by his own mindset, a "story reader" and a "character passionate".

C:indie are too "fandom" to create mass products
It's not a secret, look at the average indie game done.
LGBT moe moe.
Moe moe.
Bishi bishi.
LGBT moe bishi.
Otome otome otome.
They are not products conceived for masses. Those are the manga/anime the authors "loved".
Ask a bishi bishi author if he want to create a NO anime bishi story. The reply is obviously "not my thing".
So, YES, you can't go further if the average indie want just to tell his story, and not the stories other people will like.
That's the first and main issue nowadays in the scene.
A very restricted number of people approach it to create a game, instead they want to create his OWN dream game.


That's conclude to...
Do visual novels as they are, the better you can, for the niche they are referred to.
You're a producer, so you give a thing to a market, you're not responsible to enlarge that market.
If you want to debate on a reply I gave to your posts, please QUOTE ME or i'll not be notified about. << now red so probably you'll see it.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#35 Post by trooper6 »

I disagree on almost every point.
gas wrote: A: whatever you think, Visual Novels ARE NOT GAMES.
A game need these things to qualify as a game:
-Manageable randomness
-Offer choices of action
-You can develop a skill to turn the odds
-A goal to reach
-You can fail to reach that goal.
So, whatever you do, WHATEVER, a visual novel can't be a game. When the game begin, the visual novel end, and viceversa. That's a game making dogma by game designers of renown (one is Richard Garfield).
The moment you add gameplay, you're killing the visual novel.
Visual Novels are video games. Video games cover a wide variety of topics. Not all of them have randomness. Not all of them offers choices of action. Not all of them are skill based. Not all of them have goals to real. Not all of them have fail states. Games run the gamut from Myst to Halo to The Graveyard to Journey to Analogue: A Hate Story. There are many different types of video games and Visual Novels are one type of video game.
gas wrote: B: Visual novels ARE anime surrogates.
Whatever you think, believe, keep faith into, you approach visual novels as once you were an anime/manga fan.
So, stories and visuals you expect for are these.
Please remember how YOU come in contact with visual novels. It's the same path for everyone.
That's why Visual Novels are purchased.
And that's for a reason.
The casual arcade player manage his time in search of quick and gratifying experiences.
Manga/anime fan is already, by his own mindset, a "story reader" and a "character passionate".
It is not the same path for everyone. I did not come into visual novels as an anime/manga fan. And the visual novels I play are not anime surrogates. Cave Cave Deus Videt is not an anime surrogate. Digital: A Love Story is not an anime surrogate. Cinders is not an anime surrogate. Cause of Death is not an anime surrogate. While there are many anime inspired VNs, not all of them are and most of the VNs I play are not anime surrogates. I don't purchase VNs for that. There are all sorts of video game traditions from text adventures, to IF, to point-and-click, to text heavy RPGs that draw readers. Do not assume that all people who play visual novels have your experience.
gas wrote:C:indie are too "fandom" to create mass products
It's not a secret, look at the average indie game done.
LGBT moe moe.
Moe moe.
Bishi bishi.
LGBT moe bishi.
Otome otome otome.
They are not products conceived for masses. Those are the manga/anime the authors "loved".
Ask a bishi bishi author if he want to create a NO anime bishi story. The reply is obviously "not my thing".
So, YES, you can't go further if the average indie want just to tell his story, and not the stories other people will like.
That's the first and main issue nowadays in the scene.
A very restricted number of people approach it to create a game, instead they want to create his OWN dream game.
What indie games are you playing? I'm looking at the Independent Games Festival awards nominations for 2017 and I'm not seeing moe moe bishi bishi. I'm seeing a wide variety of interesting artistic experiences. And indie games can also get mainstream success. Not many, but there are indie games that make big splashes.
gas wrote: That's conclude to...
Do visual novels as they are, the better you can, for the niche they are referred to.
You're a producer, so you give a thing to a market, you're not responsible to enlarge that market.
If you want to make a game that has been made before, if you want to stay into one sort of niche...you certainly can. But not everyone wants to do that...and not everyone does do that. I, for one, am glad that people have pushed to enlarge the market...because those people drew me into the world of visual novel video games. If it weren't for those people who made things like The Elevator or FaceTime or Digital: A Love Story or The One in Love or Cause of Death, I wouldn't be here. And I have shared those visual novels with other people who hadn't heard of the genre...and they are sharing it with others. I want to enlarge the market because my market is not people who want moe moe anime games. I want that market who played Cause of Death. I want the people who played Cinders. I want people playing The Walking Dead. I want an expanded market and a larger variety of games.
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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#36 Post by pinto minto »

I feel like VNs have a lot of potential, but when people think of VNs, they think of "Romance/Sim Dating" and it puts them off. They're too embarrassed to play it out in public, or to brag about it to a friend, like they would with Call of Duty, GTA, Assassins Creed, or whatever generic mainstream game there is out there. Take out the romance stuff and add in Mystery, Horror, or Drama, and it should do better with the masses, and even better if it wasn't so "moe fluffy anime". Look at Cause of Death, Ace Attorney, they all fared well without it being a romance game. I'm not saying Romance VNS are bad, in fact, Romance VNS can do extremely well when done right. The thing is, it usually attracts only half of the audiences; (girls). A good example is Choices: Stories You Play, which is in the Top 50 Grossing games on IOS, and was downloaded by 100,000+ times. Choices is also the reason why I don't believe for a second that western style art will break a VN... if you're trying to attract western audiences, then it should be doing better than anime style art.

*edited*
Last edited by pinto minto on Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#37 Post by gekiganwing »

Want to change fandom? Write a story that's true to who you are, what you like, and so on. This probably sounds obvious. However, I think it's better than creating a visual novel with a goal of "it will sell millions," or "it seems trendy in early 2017."
pinto minto wrote:They're too embarrassed to play it out in public, or to brag about it to a friend, like they would with Call of Duty, GTA, Assassins Creed, or whatever generic mainstream game there is out there.
I grew up with video games in which the main character casually killed thousands of sentient creatures, sometimes including humans. Right now, I find this embarrassing to admit, because only a few of the games which I liked did not focus on violence as a means to resolve conflicts. Also, I was active in fandom for about a decade before I heard about romance games, and then decided to buy one of the few localized titles available at the time -- Thousand Arms.

People deal with their insecurities in different ways. There are individuals who hide their fannish interests, and people who don't care what others think. What is or isn't considered mainstream depends on who you ask. Public views on pop culture media change quite often.
I played Black Ops once around 2010, but I haven't tried most big-name games since the early 2000s.
pinto minto wrote:Look at Cause of Death, Ace Attorney, TellTale Games, LIFE IS FREAKING STRANGE, (how can you guys forget this gem? :'( ...) they all fared well without it being a romance game.
This is an "art form appeals to only one audience" problem. Only one or two types of products are commercially successful. Any other examples are considered one-off artistic experiments. They might end up in a bargain bin, and quickly forgotten by all but a few enthusiasts. (Two examples. When I try to form a mental picture of video games from the 2000s through today, it fades into a gray-and-brown blur of first person shooters and GTA clones. When I try to form a mental picture of comics written in English, it fades into a combination of vintage and 1990s comics covers which I remember seeing in stores.)

If you plan to create an indie VN, and not focus on characters' relationships, then I'll look forward to it. In my opinion, the first thing which fans will want to know is "do I care about the characters and their dilemma?" If it's gameplay driven, then fans will want to know if the video game elements are compelling, and neither too easy nor too frustrating.
I tried Sam and Max: Season One a few years ago, but haven't tried the others which you mentioned.
pinto minto wrote:... if you're trying to attract western audiences, then it should be doing better than anime style art.
The art in a commercial VN needs to appeal to at least one demographic. If the art is a vague combination of contemporary styles from multiple nations, then it might struggle to find an audience. I think that it can be beneficial to have a style which is specific to a region and an era. For instance, a VN could have an aesthetic similar to a Franco-Belgian comic created during the 1990s.

I looked at Choices: Stories You Play for the first time today. My first thought was "it's a 2D drawing." Some people might like its glossy, somewhat realistic art aesthetic. The app is free, and it seems reasonable that more than a few individuals have downloaded it. However, I don't know how many users have decided to use in-app purchases.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#38 Post by Kinmoku »

pinto minto wrote:I feel like VNs have a lot of potential, but when people think of VNs, they think of "Romance/Sim Dating" and it puts them off. They're too embarrassed to play it out in public, or to brag about it to a friend, like they would with Call of Duty, GTA, Assassins Creed, or whatever generic mainstream game there is out there. Take out the romance stuff and add in Mystery, Horror, or Drama, and it should do better with the masses, and even better if it wasn't so "moe fluffy anime". Look at Cause of Death, Ace Attorney, they all fared well without it being a romance game. I'm not saying Romance VNS are bad, in fact, Romance VNS can do extremely well when done right. The thing is, it usually attracts only half of the audiences; (girls). A good example is Choices: Stories You Play, which is in the Top 50 Grossing games on IOS, and was downloaded by 100,000+ times. Choices is also the reason why I don't believe for a second that western style art will break a VN... if you're trying to attract western audiences, then it should be doing better than anime style art.

*edited*
Totally agree. Choices and Episode (Read more here: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2939 ... atform.php) are probably the two most financially successful "visual novels" in the west. Whilst I agree romance sims put a lot of people off, Episode in particular focuses on the little dramas/ romances of real life, and girls/ women like it. It's comparable to a soap opera or drama, except you interact with it. Even though I personally don't like these stories, I can see the mass appeal.

I think platform is a big factor of this too. When you visualise a VN player, you think of someone sat with their laptop downloading a game from Steam or itch.io, or perhaps playing Vita/ 3DS. Either way, you don't really think mobile, and that is where a huge, casual audience lies. Nearly everyone has a smart phone and most people likes to read. It's a huge opportunity imo.

And, like many have said, anime is not for everyone. If I see a moe anime style, I'm instantly put off... and I call myself an anime fan, but I assume I won't like that kind of game. That maybe bad of me, being quick to judge, but people do that. After all, there are so many games to pick, so many articles, suggestions, links etc in your social media feeds, that most users will glance for only a second before looking at something else. My advice is to set apart from the pack. VNs can be about anything, they're like books, but we often see the same looking games over and over. People say this is to target a market, but it's a small market that has high competition already. Who's to say a different looking VN won't sell either? It'll certainly attract a different audience, hopefully widening the scope of VN fans. Take the risk, that's what I say :)

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#39 Post by Helyees »

This is a very interesting discussion, great insights from everyone!

Our game "Panzer Hearts" is aiming especially for these people who do not (yet) play VN's.

In "Panzer Hearts" we have an alternative WW2 setting and the story takes place on the home front of "The Empire" resembling nazi Germany. We thought the western audience would find WW2 theme interesting, so no high-school setting here. We want to use the strength of VN and focus on how it was to live in the middle of a war. The VN style of storytelling gives an opportunity to focus the human experiences and not only depicting the actual fighting on the front which is seen in games so often.

Check out a small Teaser for Panzer Hearts:

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#40 Post by OmniGamer »

Sonomi wrote:A poignant quote from the OP's article mentioned a reviewer who said that "visual novels are for people who like visual novels." I want to reword this to "visual novels are for people who like reading."

Gameplay mechanics are great, but I'm personally trying to move away from those things. Sometimes you just want to read, but not a book with lines of text on a page, and that's hard to find in AAA titles.
I would further weaken it to "VNs are for people who do not actively hate reading". Some journalists love to claim that Harry Potter makes people love reading again, but from my point of view, they never hate reading in the first place, good things to read just had not been widely advertised. I think the same situation is with VNs as well.

A little bit of my background. I was a president of my college gaming club, if that means anything to you. I would consider myself an open-minded gamer. I do have my tastes, there are games I liked and games I don't, but I also play and enjoy games from all genres, big names and indie alike. I would not considered myself a VN fans at all, but I had played roughly 30 VNs (I'm not even a anime fan, so the first time I discovered VN by myself I was just confused "Wow this introductory cutscene is sure long...wait did the game just end after the cutscene?"). So, I know what genre to go for to get a particular "fix". For example if I want careful strategic analysis I can play Civ, or if I want mind game and deliberate movements I can play SF. I do not need games to dilute itself by adding elements from everything just to appeal to everyone, in fact in many cases it can be especially harmful (would YOU want to play chess "augmented" with QTE?). This is especially true for VNs, as I will explain below. I want games to specialize on the strength unique to them, to the point where they could win over doubters.

So what are the strength of the VN genre:
1. Choices and consequences.
2. Deep, complex stories.

I'm sure we all know about #2 already, since that is what make VN special among games. But that does not distinguish it from good ol' novels. #1 is what make VN legitimately a game for me, and not just a book. And since I notice that most creators here had not make good use of #1, this is what I will elaborate on.

One thing gamers like about game, is the fact that they can experiment, they can try out possibilities, and see what happen. For RTS, it would be whether this strategy is effective, for the SIM or DF it would be whether X hook up with Y or whether doing this will cause everyone to die (the answer is always yes). Movies and books can't do that. Sure, a book might claim that character S is already in too deep, and discuss about it; but a game can show that S is in too deep, by for example, giving a bad end with S being killed by the boss after quitting, or even more subtly showing no matter what choices does S make, he ends up losing his will and reluctantly agrees to the next job.

Unfortunately, while game can generally allow player to experiment with mechanical possibilities, most games are incapable of letting players experiment with narrative possibilities. Sure, you could construct some story out of SIM or DF but at the end of the day, you know that the game are merely following some simple (but not too simple) rules, and the game state evolves accordingly. And there are 3 reasons why this happen:
-Current AI technology, while can be really good at producing good enemies, are still far from being capable of producing good stories. Not that no attempts had been made, but the results are meh at best (see Facade).
-Playing a game is a huge investment of time. Fighting bosses, grinding for gears, etc. People simply put, do not want to play the game again to try a different narrative choice. This create the expectation that the game should be done in 1 playthrough.
-Producing contents also cost a lot of money. All the 3D modelling for new characters, all the new bosses and enemies you have to playtest. Producing an entire new story arc is nearly as costly as making another game, and they can't really justify spending that to the guy above.
-This creates a downward spiral: producers, if they add any branching story at all, will just make it a tack on effort with some new text and maybe a cutscene, but no new gameplay; players, see no new gameplay, don't want to play again, so they play games only once; producers, seeing players play games only once, put all story in 1 go, and don't really do anything to make branching story more interesting; players, seeing no new story, are even more discourage from trying out possiblities.

So where does this leave VN? Well, because VN requires no mechanical gameplay, it requires the least amount of effort from players to play the game again; in fact, this is probably the only genre where players are expected to play through ALL content. And since producing new storyline does not requires costly thing like producing new level, 3D modelling, rendering new cutscene and playtesting, producers are capable of producing a lot more story branches. THIS is the reason why I do NOT want gameplay in my VN, the more gameplay you have, the more you are discouraging players from trying narrative possibilities (I for sure will not play FE:A again just to see what will happen if Chrome get Olivia instead).

Yet, it sadden me that most creators here had not pushed this further. Most VNs here haves 2 types of stories and choice structures:
a) 1 choice to pick a character's route, and once you get in that route, everyone else is irrelevant.
b) 1 choice to pick which ending to get.
c) Choices with 1 right option and everything else a bad end.
d) Choices have really negligible effects.
Type a) is like picking out which book to read, except some books happened to have the same prologue. Type b) and c) are exactly like how AAA games handle choice, since it's very inexpensive. Type d) what is even the point?

I think LLTQ is a good examples of a game with choices and consequences. I would prefer the stat-raising aspect removed since it slows the game down and is not even that challenging, and deeper and more complex story. But the choices are much more intertwined and you can see how you can change things a little to get Elodie to be able to do certain things (seeing how many people can be saved by Elodie's action is a huge challenge for example). It is not a pure VN, but I am having a hard time finding games among the pure VN that have better choice structures.

Yes I understand that a complex branching story is hard and take lots of efforts to do, I can do the arithmetic you know. But most VNs are far from even reaching that limit. I think a lot more can be done. If you want a game that will convince the doubter, you must make a game that allow players to explore very well the narrative consequences (notice how SP was quite popular, and it's not even that complicated). It must tell a deep story, yet that story can only be told because you can make choice. And these must be done well enough, to the point that the doubter will say: "if I want this kind of narrative experience, I must come to VN, because no other genres can provide it". That would be the game that break the prejudice, the one that serves as an entrance to the genre.

Does that mean all VNs must be make like that? No. Just like not all movie made on colour film need to use all colour, nor all digital movies need to have CGI effects. The fact that it is possible will convince other creators to create VNs like that, and to make a VN that does not have it telling on its own (as an analogy if you see B&W movie made nowaday you know it's a deliberate choice and not because producer are incapable of producing coloured film).



TL;DR make a VN with deep story, which can be told only because the player are allow to explore many deeeply intertwined choices with significant narrative consequences; don't add gameplay elements it's bad.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#41 Post by MissKittyNekomura »

First of all, I wanted to let you know that I'm a fan of your work - I played a little Beretta Mondatta and I loved it! So I'm really glad you offered some insight into your creative process. You gave me a lot to think about if/when I decide to tackle my own VN sometime in the future. I particularly liked the part where you gave the advice about considering which VNs worked for you & why - that's definitely a piece of advice that's going to set me down the right path (no pun intended).

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#42 Post by ISAWHIM »

Well, a visual novel is just what it says... a "visual novel". It is one component, and a vague one, about the topic within the contents.

AKA, "Comic book"

Novels have had "choose your own path" and "stats", as well as "visuals", for thousands of years. But that is nothing but troll-food, and quite frankly, off-topic to the original post.

"Making visual novels"... "for people who hate visual novels"... (I am not 100% sure if hate is referring to the creator or the reader)

The term "visual novel", and "comic book", both have a stigma attached to them. Just like the term "RPG" (role-play-game) has a stigma attached to it, or "FPS" (Fast-paced-shooter), or "MMO" (Massive-multiplayer-online) {As if massive-multiplayer could be done anywhere-else, other than online...}

How do you defeat that stigma... Don't use it to describe your creation. Just call it a game or a novel/story, whichever suits your creation better. It is a program you download, open, play... as opposed to a book you open or typical "non-game software", which would be something like notepad or a web-browser.

How do you make a visual-novel, for those who hate them... (for the readers, who hate them)
- You don't... Why would you? They hate them! That is horrible marketing.

How do you make a visual-novel, for those who hate them... (for YOU, who hate them)
- You don't... Make a game! Why would you make something you hate? That is just masochistic!

How do you, the creator of a visual-novel, get others who don't like visual-novels, to like your creation...
- Don't call it a visual-novel.
- Make a game with words to read.
- Make a game with a story.
- Make an "illustrated novel". (The only coined-term that actually sells, in bulk, to the majority.)
- Change your art style to something other than "Manga", so it stands-out, instead of blending-in, and being "Seen as a visual-novel", or "Manga comic", or "Comic book".

"Illustrated" sounds sophisticated, "Visual" sounds cheap.
"Novel" sounds sophisticated, "Book" sounds cheap.
"Story-board" sounds sophisticated, "Comic" sounds cheap.
"Entertainment" sounds sophisticated, "Game" sounds cheap.

EG...

Illustrated Novel (Typical descriptor, standard term, most used still)
V.S
Visual Novel (Novelty coined-term)
V.S.
Comic Book (Novelty coined-term)

Story-board Entertainment (Little too complex, industry standard, not consumer slang.)
V.S.
Story-board Game (Defunct coined-term)
V.S.
Video Game (Ideal and simple, coined-term)

It is like the terms, Road, Street, Park-way, Avenue, Lane... At one point in time, they were all specific to various driving-path types. Now, they are all used for anything you drive on, except a drive-way, which you park on... (Just because a few "happen" to be what they actually are, does not make them "correct"... 9/10 times they were just coincidentally named correctly. Give a monkey three choices, he will be right at-least 1/3 of the time too, but not correct. Oddly, giving humans that same option, they are only correct about 1/2 of the time.)

The bigger issue is "How do I make my creation good, look worthy of reading/playing and also being memorable?"

That, beyond trying to get people who like or hate your "type" of creations, is the bigger thing. There are so-many bad ones out there, many don't even look like they are worth reading, and few are memorable. Which is why this is still a "niche" market. You honestly have to cater to those in the niche, and be better or as good as the rest already there, or be damned to being the needle in the haystack.

Somewhere out there is a guy, or girl, who wants to have a protagonist fall in love with a rock that talks with telekinetic powers, who wins the lotto and ends-up ruling ten planets... One person... Don't be the individual who expects that one singular person to support all your creations.

There are 7-billion people in the world, 2/3 of them can read, 3/4 of them have access to the internet, don't end-up writing for yourself! Unless you plan to support yourself. (I tell restaurant owners that all the time. When they seem to cook only food they like.)

P.S. I own over 3,000 comics, never read one of them... I own zero Mangas, but I have read about a few dozen (Great art, often horrible writing)... I have downloaded and "played", well over 280 games according to my "Steam" and "Origin" accounts and personal stash... I have downloaded and played well over 3,000 "visual novels", and killed about five mice ~10,000 clicks each, in the process. (Most had decent art, which drew me to them, but most also had the worst writing/plots/story/concepts.)

Over-all... I would rather have played games.

The art, although great, is often forgettable.
The stories, are usually lack-luster in memorable content or just fluff between fluff and more fluff.
The content, typical and predictable regurgitated shorter versions of cheesy movies.
The time consumed, and felt wasted, is often greater then desired.

On rare occasions, I have crossed paths with AWESOME content, with crappy art, which was sad, but left me feeling like there was ZERO seconds/clicks wasted. I buried those mice appropriately... In the recycling-bin, not the trash-can. However, I couldn't tell you a single title of one of those games... Because they were so long ago and the titles were horribly forgettable. lol.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#43 Post by gekiganwing »

Take what you've learned from pop culture entertainment. Write down things from specific stories which you liked and disliked. Then think about how you could improve on them, or do something which is reasonably different. For instance, maybe you're annoyed by a story in which the characters spend a lot of time chasing down MacGuffins. Perhaps your response will be to create a story which has a lot of fake MacGuffins ("just another fake diamond"), and the characters focus on locating the real valuable item.

I believe a person can build a VN based only on what they've learned from other media. One can be written based only from experiences with live theater, comics, movies, etc. If you choose not to pay attention to existing VNs, then your story might have distinct pacing, aesthetics, themes, and so on. That said, there are quite a few design and storytelling lessons which I've learned from translated OJLVNs. Here are three specific examples, which are both good and bad:

* Kana Little Sister helped me think "A story can include fifteen minutes of sex scenes across three hours and still be interesting."
* Tokimeki Check-in introduced me to the concept of disturbing choices which lead the protagonist to an evil route. However, I didn't think they were sufficiently horrifying.
* Toradora Portable had some adventure game elements. I found them a bit frustrating, since I had to guess which item to pick up, and since obtaining items unlocked choices minutes or hours later.
OmniGamer wrote:...which can be told only because the player are allow to explore many deeply intertwined choices with significant narrative consequences...
This is an interesting challenge. Structure the story so that the protagonist's decisions add up. Let the reader choose actions which shape the protag into a heroic person, or a villain, or something else. There are a lot of potential pitfalls. For instance, it's possible for the choices to seem like "obvious evil versus obvious good option." It is also possible for the decisions to be too vague, and the reader is left to guess how they're shaping the story. I think that a writer can justify some choices which surprise the reader with an unexpected outcome. However, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to fill the story with surprise outcomes ("your good intentions lead to bad results AGAIN").
ISAWHIM wrote: - Make a game with words to read.
- Make a game with a story.
Blending gameplay and story is always a challenge. Should a story be told through interacting through a video game world? Should there be a few minutes of dialogue and then a few minutes of interaction? If there's extensive segments of storytelling or gameplay, will that lead to the player being bored or frustrated?

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ISAWHIM
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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#44 Post by ISAWHIM »

gekiganwing wrote:
ISAWHIM wrote: - Make a game with words to read.
- Make a game with a story.
Blending gameplay and story is always a challenge. ... If there's extensive segments of storytelling or gameplay, will that lead to the player being bored or frustrated?
You just described every other visual-novel ever made... "extensive segments of storytelling... player being bored or frustrated"...

You fail to see the point of the statements... "Don't call it a visual novel."

Game with words to read, or a story, besides every single visual novel with a choice to make in them... (Every role-play game ever made. Fallout, Skyrim, Watchdogs, Final Fantasy, Warcraft, Grand Theft Auto...) I doubt boredom will be common, unless the game-elements suck or the writing sucks... then it won't matter what you make... It will suck. That is what turns others away from visual-novels... When the majority suck, and that stigma of "visual-novels" gets enforced.

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Re: Making Visual Novels (For People Who Hate Visual Novels)

#45 Post by gekiganwing »

ISAWHIM wrote:I doubt boredom will be common, unless the game-elements suck or the writing sucks...
I'm sure there are fans who just assume that visual novel = droning slice of life story with no conflict, at least two love interests, and probably at least one sex scene per hour. That was my cynical assumption around 2002 - 2004.

Calling your project by a different name -- maybe "story-driven game," maybe "interactive story" -- is one way to distinguish it. Where do you go from there? What else can you do to find a new audience?

* Art style. The drawings should convey a personality, and not seem like a hand-me-down version of someone else's art. (As one of my previous posts in this thread indicates, I have an aversion to grimdark styles, and I don't especially like photorealism. However, I'm just one fan.)

* Pacing. As I've probably said before, you don't need to throw in a car chase or a dance scene. I think that just a conversation can be interesting, as long as the audience cares about the characters and their circumstances. This is much, much easier said than done.

* Theme. What do you want to say, and how do you want to say it? If the story finds an audience of people who praise it, then that's a measure of success. (As one of my previous posts in this thread infers, I worry that more than a few future visual novels will be dour and violent. However, I'm just one fan.)

* Sufficient gameplay testing. Do people like controlling a character, or using the interface? Is the experience somewhere between too easy and frustrating? No game's interactive elements can appeal to everyone. However, they need to appeal to someone.

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