Lemma Soft Forums

HELLO THERE! :]

New to the forums but not to the genre.

Got to wondering why there are help sections for artists, writers, and musicians -- but no love for developers?
I think visual novel storytelling can go above and beyond just the usual text-imposed-on-character-sprite interface, as different ways to tell stories are popping up here and there...
(Virtual Reality? Augmented Reality? Messaging Apps anyone?) Tech is evolving along with the way humans tell stories.

Q's:
Is there no love for engineering, or have I not looked far enough?
Anyone familiar with visual novels that have really pushed the boundaries of digital story telling?

Maybe you could not see the forest for all the trees? LOL.
I'd say anything that isn't asset creation in terms of discussing development belongs right here in creator discussion. I think a specific 'developers' forum would be somewhat redundant. Although, maybe that's just being confused by what exactly you mean by 'developer'. I'd say a large percentage of people in this forum consider themselves developers.

By engineering do you mean game mechanics?

I agree with Valhalla, anyone that makes assets for a game is usually referred to as a developer around here. The writers, artists, programmers, etc. From your post you're probably referring to the programmers/coders. Because the stuff like Messaging apps and other ways to exceed the basic formula of Ren'py starting assets is handled by them.

desmagna wrote:Anyone familiar with visual novels that have really pushed the boundaries of digital story telling?

My knowledge of Mystic Messenger is not especially good. However, I know that it blurs the line between using a mobile app and telling a story.

Digital: A Love Story tells its story through BBS conversations. The characters are not portrayed through graphics.

desmagna wrote:I think visual novel storytelling can go above and beyond just the usual text-imposed-on-character-sprite interface, as different ways to tell stories are popping up here and there...

I agree. Visual novels don't need to be defined as stories told through somewhat realistic 2D drawings, separate characters and backgrounds, and text presented through an ADV or NVL interface. As I've said elsewhere, they certainly don't need to be defined as stories which feature love polygons and academic settings.

Keep in mind that some fans are defensive about what they like. They might enjoy both the form and the content of their favorite stories. I know that I have been awfully protective about games, comics, and other media which I've enjoyed.

I think the whole forum is kind of for developers? maybe a game mechanics board? That would be cool, it's something that can be a little weird to wrap your head around depending on how you approach a project. I tend to approach my games as a writer/author so thinking of them as a 'game' gets a bit tricky > < lol

We're all developers! I agree that it might be nice to have a subforum for Coding/programming, though

Well, we do have Renpy Questions for help on coding/programming...and the Renpy Cookbook for posting helpful snippets of code.

What is "game engineering"?

If it's about coding... we already have renpy section. Art, writing and music subforum exist because they're pretty much relevant to put here compared to, for example... generic programmer subforum to talk about coding in C++

Valhalla wrote:Maybe you could not see the forest for all the trees? LOL.

What am I missing here?

Valhalla wrote: I'd say anything that isn't asset creation in terms of discussing development belongs right here in creator discussion. I think a specific 'developers' forum would be somewhat redundant. Although, maybe that's just being confused by what exactly you mean by 'developer'. I'd say a large percentage of people in this forum consider themselves developers.

By engineering do you mean game mechanics?

Ah right. Well normally in the game dev industry we call the programmers "game devs" -- so I meant more around how programmers make the game experience better. Engineering is the bedrock of game mechanics, so in a way yes!

Sooo... when you mean most people here consider themselves devs, they're not programmers?

Mammon wrote:I agree with Valhalla, anyone that makes assets for a game is usually referred to as a developer around here. The writers, artists, programmers, etc. From your post you're probably referring to the programmers/coders. Because the stuff like Messaging apps and other ways to exceed the basic formula of Ren'py starting assets is handled by them.

Ahh I see! Thanks for clarifying that then. So developers = anyone who makes assets.

Keep in mind that some fans are defensive about what they like. They might enjoy both the form and the content of their favorite stories. I know that I have been awfully protective about games, comics, and other media which I've enjoyed.

Tried MM actually and that's what got me interested in seeing different media used to communicate a story! I'm curious to know if most people who read VNs are awfully protective about the media format and interface?

Scribbles wrote:I think the whole forum is kind of for developers? maybe a game mechanics board? That would be cool, it's something that can be a little weird to wrap your head around depending on how you approach a project. I tend to approach my games as a writer/author so thinking of them as a 'game' gets a bit tricky > < lol

Tyrantauranox wrote:We're all developers! I agree that it might be nice to have a subforum for Coding/programming, though

Hmm, confused -- so developers here are the programmers?

desmagna wrote:Ahh I see! Thanks for clarifying that then. So developers = anyone who makes assets.

In a sense. Roughly said anyone but the audience/readers and the alpha testers can be called a developer because they develop parts of the VN. It's a bit of a grey area because of what is and isn't programming, and how many groups around here are so small that everyone does have a small amount of programming in their task even if they don't know it themselves. But mostly we call your idea of developer a programmer/coder to avoid the confusion as seen in this thread.

But like trooper6 said, technically everything under 'Renpy visual novel engine' falls under programming, so you have three sections while we other developing branches have just one. (And if you don't work in Ren'py, then you also have the 'other engines' section as well.)

A developer is a mix of designer, team manager and coder. When you think "I want to do a game about that, with those features" you're acting as the developer.
When you call the artist at 3:00 pm to ask for the sprite, you are the developer.
When you decide that Maruko have blue hair as blue is trendy, you're the developer.
When you decide that the choices come in and you have only 2 seconds to reply to convey a sense of urge, you're the developer.
When you decide packaging like the intro sequence, credits, movies you're the developer.

You don't need ANY art skill to be a developer, and probably not even coding skill. You need to have ideas and know what a game is, the game trends, the market.

GAME ENGINEERING IS NOT CODING.
Game engineering is the flux of events, choice of moods and feedbacks, in a word how the game must "work" and is perceived by players. Rules, math equations behind the game ecosystem, pace, informations told, entropy of the simulation.

While creating a visual novel doesn't usually require this, in fact REAL GAMES need one.
Visual novels are click click click read, see manga babes, read, click click click. No engineering required. It's almost all based on the quality of art and nothing else.

A section for developers it's useful? Not there. 99% users do linear standard visual novels from teenagers to teenagers, and there's no study of any game structure. Thankfully for them.

We're thinking "Video Game Developers"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_developer

Basically, anyone who does anything for the sake of creating a video game.