Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

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LiveTurkey
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Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#1 Post by LiveTurkey »

I'm working on a Visual Novel and have decided to complete the coding/ writing aspects first. I'm making decent progress on those two fronts so the necessity for art is starting to increase.

Right now I have to choose whether I want to go down the path of commissions or go down the path of learning how to draw.

Here is the way I see it

Commissions Pro:

1. A lot easier.
2. Don't have to learn a skill in a month that people spend years working on.
3. Will probably launch the game sooner = higher revenue.

Commissions Negative:

1. A lot more expensive (Total cost would be around $2000 for Chapter One and so on for each additional chapter.)
2. Finding a good balance of well-priced artist that is willing to make my commissions and creates good art is no easy task. This will probably take up a good amount of time.
3. Some more time lost to communicating changes, vision, direction, etc

Learning to Draw Pro:

1. I feel like art difficulty is exponential. As in to achieve 50% mastery would probably take a month, 75% would take a year, and 99%+ mastery would take 5+ years. Am I correct on this assumption? And with that being said, I feel like I could get by with the 50% mastery for my project
2. Great skill to have. (Will help with my other ventures)
3. Drawing should be relaxing. Can do it as a form of meditation while listening to podcasts.
4. Low start-up cost ($100-$200) for a tablet
5. Lots of resources and tutorials online that will severely cut down on time spent.
6. Complete control over my art. Whatever I see in my brain I could create.

Learning to Draw Cons:

1. Take A LOT of time.
2. Will almost definitely delay launching my game

How long would it take to learn how to draw something like this

Are high-quality, beautiful commissions for cheap a myth? Or do they exist if you really look for it? That includes searching for artists outside of your country/language.

Any thoughts? Has anyone been in my position before? What did you do and how did it turn out? Right now I'm leaning towards learning how to draw.

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#2 Post by hyesunxoxo »

Hey! Seeing as both situations have pros and cons, I think it all comes down to what you see will be more beneficial for you. Are you in a great rush to launch your game for some reason? Or are you willing to spend a great amount of time to learn a skill and possibly save up in the future? As for how long it takes to learn a certain craft or skill, it's never the same for anyone. You can have the natural eye for it, and it will take you a lot faster than everyone else. If you don't, the timeline differs also. Those are some questions you might want to answer in your head.

As for me, I'm a beginner writer currently working on my first low-key project and believe it or not, we're only putting out 300 bucks but that doesn't mean cutting off the quality. The manager is a BG artist himself, and yes - cheap beautiful commissions may sound a little impossible but they exist. Right now, we're found a great $10 sprite artist.

If you're leaning towards learning how to draw, that would be great for you. When you think of both ways as an investment, surely you will have to put up lots of time and effort now and even delaying the launch of your game, but in the future it can be an advantage for you. Creating art takes as much time as writing and making music, though. If you're willing to commission another artist on your next project again (which like you said can save you time), then you can save yourself the trouble and get on newer projects faster.

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#3 Post by Lesleigh63 »

I wouldn't recommend learning how to draw unless you feel your life is missing something by not having that creative process in it. Learning art is direction/instruction plus many many hours of doing art (or practicing). Are you prepared to devote hours to this past-time every day? You'd need that type of commitment to get to the level you're talking about.
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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#4 Post by Mammon »

I'm not sure if you should commission anyone, because I don't understand why you have such a rush to release your first project. Especially this comment seems like I'm not getting something.
3. Will probably launch the game sooner = higher revenue.
Why would you earn more if you were to release the game earlier? Yes, you would start earning earlier, but not necessarily more.

From what I can tell, this is your first project? In which event, maybe try doing it yourself or doing it cheaper. I'm not sure of the math behind your estimate of commission costs, but for a first-time developer you might not even get that $2000 out of it depending on where you sell it and with what advertisement. I've seen other threads of people having seen a source suggesting these indie games make thousands of dollars and not realising that the games mentioned in the source are the top 10% or even 1%.

That same $2000 estimate also makes me wonder how many characters and CGs you're planning to use. Any characters you can scrap to cut costs or time? Or are you looking for really luxurious sprites at high costs? But the most worries that I have with that $2000 is not the number itself but the mention of 'Chapter 1' shortly after. I'm not sure of the legitimity of the source, but a while ago there was a thread around here that said that chapter-stories don't sell that well in comparison to completed sagas. Too many of these stories never get past Ch1 or 2, so few people are buying in before the story is nearing completion. And this lack of anyone buying your game could result in you not getting the income or motivation you need to ever make that second chapter. (Thus continuing the vicious cycle)

So, should you commission anyone? Maybe, for a first project this is always a tough call. Personally I'd say that the Draw pro's, especially the last one and 4. being an investment that carries over to future projects as well, would make it the best option. You'll have no deadlines or restrictions caused by others, you can take your time with rewrites (which I strongly suggest you do) and there is no chance of a runaway artist or scammer like we hear off every once in a while. Then again, even assuming your 50% assumption is correct, it will probably not be the quality you gave the link to.

My personal strategy; I didn't commission anyone. Not strange, considering I work on a $0 budget, and I took some great concessions on the art because I didn't even invest in a tablet. Probably not what you want to do, because my art scares away most potential readers :lol: But, I did have the creative freedom and lack of deadlines to make the game like I wanted to make it. I rewrote it five times until I was satisfied with it, made it as goofy as I wanted, didn't have to wait for anyone or work at times I didn't want to. What I'd advice you: really depends on what you think the timetable for this project will be. You say you'd learn the art in a month. If that's just practice runs, not the eventual art for your game, then that's fair. If you plan to make $2000 worth of commissions in art without experience drawing in a month, then readjust your expectations. P&Y took me about 1.5 years to finish, and I'd say that (especially to a first-time writer and coder) a 100.000 words VN will take at least a year to produce.
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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#5 Post by Limabaen »

C3qm4r4WMAAnOoi.jpg
No matter whether you choose to commission an artist or learn to draw yourself, it's going to be long, challenging and expensive- especially if you want work that is high quality, timely and for a low price. That being said, what is "cheap" for a commissioner is often very different from what is cheap for an artist, which is also different from the industry standard, and it's something I as an artist am quite sensitive about. I've seen commissioners complain about prices as low as $30 for a fully coloured, full body sprite. Assuming the whole thing takes 6 hours, some poor sucker is getting paid less than 5 dollars an hour for their effort and communication. So most artists on the English speaking internet seem to charge around 40-70 dollars, which at first glance is getting expensive, but for the artist is barely enough to scrape by.
The standard on Japanese "professional" websites seems to be about $100-$200 dollars per sprite, and expect to pay more for even higher quality work, not to mention cgs. The example that you linked is what I'd call the generic "professional" standard, and I doubt the artist was paid less than 150 dollars for it.
However, if you're willing to go for 50% pro or less, then you'd probably find a bunch of people - particularly young people - willing to work. Keep in mind the fine balance between "cheap" and "slave labour" though.

If you want to use your own assets on the other hand, then it's going to be even harder. You can't think about "learning to draw" in the same way you learn to cook an omelette or learn to use photoshop. Illustration is actually a conglomeration of multiple skills, successfully merged together. To produce something of the quality of your example, it would take longer than 5 years imo. That artist has a good grasp of perspective, anatomy, consistency, lighting, backgrounds, composition, fabric and general fabric physics, angling, colour, and a steady hand capable of producing slick and neat lineart. Not to mention, you've got to build your muscle memory from scratch.
Check this out: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showth ... d-Sketches
That's the thread of an artist who starts to learn to draw in 2002. The last post is in 2015: 13 years later, and he has finally reached what I'd call above 90%. Now, for making vn assets you've got to talk aaalllll that, but do it without drawing from life, and stylising your own way. I'm not trying to discourage you from learning to draw by yourself if you really, really think you'll enjoy it, but it's not the humdrum solution your post makes it out to be. Don't forget, you also have to pay for art programs to draw as well, which can cost a few hundred dollars. Though if you already have some basic high-school level drawing ability, plus are satisfied with taking what you can get when it comes to your own work, there are lots of benefits that come out of making everything yourself, which Mammon already pointed out above.

I'm thinking your best options are to a.) fork out the top dollar for top quality b.) find someone who's willing to work for passion and interest (but they may drop out) c.) commission for lower price but be satisfied with lower quality

tl;dr, art is hard :?

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#6 Post by SundownKid »

If you are starting from scratch in learning how to draw then say goodbye to trying to release your game in a reasonable amount of time. 50% mastery taking a month is really laughable. Try 10% mastery in a month. Even if it is exponential, it's far less exponential than you might believe. Maybe if you tried very hard you would achieve your wanted 50% mastery level in a year. But, it's definitely a slog and will take a lot of dedication.

I think you will have no choice but to commission, at least for now. You can probably work on your art skills on the side while you make your game, but without necessarily incorporating them into your game.

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#7 Post by YonYonYon »

Art is hard. It took me 15 years to get to the "good enough" category with a lot of work and dedication. Also, art as a hobby is relaxing, sure, but as a job it's as stressful as any job can be. Crying, having mental breakdowns, getting depressed and such isn't that uncommon in art world, at least in my experience as an art major.

About tutorials, they may let you to get the polish right, but without proper understanding of anatomy and perspective the art piece will still look cheap and weird. Not that it stopped some professional artist, but it's just for your information.

I'm sorry, I get a bit pissy when this theme is touched. Just... art is hard, man. If you want to pursue it as a job, please, take it seriously. Also, pay artists as much as possible. Of course, try to find as better deals as possible, but be considerate.
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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#8 Post by SexBomb »

Posted this on the same topic in a different category, so I'll repost here as this is the more popular thread. Basically seconding what most everyone has said thus far:

There's one key component really needs to be considered in all of this, that being, do you actually like to draw? If not, the answer should be obvious. If so, the answer might be a little more complicated.

That said, learning to draw is not as simple as sitting down, pulling up some tutorials, and breaking out your tablet. Unless you are imbued with inherent natural talent, it will take far longer than a month to even get started. I grew up drawing, I attended college for animation, I've been a professional freelancer for over 5 years, and I still do not consider myself a master artist. There are so many aspects to consider in producing high-quality artwork... anatomy, colour theory, character design, even learning to use the proper programs and making the most of your tablet all take an incredible amount of dedication.

Unless you are committed to art beyond your solo project, I would highly suggest commissioning an artist. There are tons of great artists on the lemmasoft forums (as well as many other websites!), all available at varying levels of skill, experience, and price. I would suggest finding one that fits your specific needs, and taking it from there.

Best of luck!

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#9 Post by juunishi master »

As a programmer (and writer), I will suggest you to commision an artist.

I've read somewhere in Tumblr that it's totally okay to contact an artist and tell him/her about your budget for commision (of course, we're not talking about $0 budget here; negotiating over $0 budget is super rude). They could make an exception, by either offering you some alternatives or--maybe--introduce you to another artist that might suit your budget better.

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#10 Post by Aviala »

You're cheating yourself if you think you can learn to draw even "decent" art in a month. Even if you drew every day, achieving the quality you want would take you AT LEAST 2-3 years, and that's if you happen to be some art prodigy. Normally, it'd take 5-15 years.

Let's take a look at some of my art for an example, shall we?
This is my first piece of digital art, made in 2010:
http://minya40.deviantart.com/art/Sketc ... -161280102

Pretty shitty, yeah? But to produce even something like this, I had drawn actively for at least 2 years and even before that I had taken part in children's art camps, went to a few youth art courses and so on. Okay, some of the messiness comes from the switch from traditional media to digital and I was pretty young when I made this, but still.

About 5 years later, I drew this:
http://minya40.deviantart.com/art/Kanji-603181592

It's getting closer to the level of mastery you're hoping for (even though it's a completely different style). I practised weekly or daily to get to this point.

I can't draw daily anymore due to wrist pains, so I can't say how good I'd be if I were able to practise daily, but let's just say that I now have about 10 years of art experience behind me, and I'm nowhere near mastery. Most of my art friends are at a similar skill level as me after doing art for about the same number of years. So it's not a stretch to say that it might take you 15 years to get to the level of skill and polish you want.

Of course, there are people who have practised more and harder than me, so they've achieved really good art skills in just a few years. The thing is though, it doesn't seem like you're ready to dedicate your life to art. If you drew all day every day, maybe you could be where you want to be in a couple of years. But your estimate is a month, and that is frankly just ridiculous, especially if you don't have any background or pre-existing skills in art.

If you have the money, commission. It seems like you're trying to make a high-quality commercial product, and that's not going to happen if you do it yourself (unless you take at least a couple of years off from game devving to practise art all day every day). If you can, get a job to pay for the commissions (if you don't have one already). One other option would be to ask family or relatives if you happen to come from a relatively wealthy family.

One other option would be to use what funds you have at hand to commission high-quality art assets and then run a crowdfunding campaign. If you decide to go take this route, remember that doing a campaign is really hard work, and will take at least a month or two of full-time work even if your goal is small.

It's a bit discouraging, but there really is no easy and fast way to solve your problem. I'd suggest you try to be patient and earn enough money to pay an artist properly. Also take a look at your writing: are you writing lots of different scenes in different locations? You could consider taking some scenes and changing the setting to an already existing one. If you have a lot of characters, maybe you could "combine" some of them: if there are two characters whose functions are essentially the same, just remove one of them. You can save money by limiting your locations, characters and features.

Good luck!

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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#11 Post by Mammon »

I'm getting the feeling that this quote of yours
1. I feel like art difficulty is exponential. As in to achieve 50% mastery would probably take a month, 75% would take a year, and 99%+ mastery would take 5+ years. Am I correct on this assumption? And with that being said, I feel like I could get by with the 50% mastery for my project
might need some specifying, because I see a lot of people disagreeing with the very notion that you could 'get gud' in five years. When I wrote my post I was assuming that your link would be the 100%, or even the other people's avatars as the 99% you mentioned, but it seems that the rest is assuming that the 99% would be artist phenomenon levels, comic book art (the realistic style) or something alike. What's your definition?

Because I agree with you that in the beginning when you're mostly learning to work with the art program rather than practicing art itself, there is a steep curve of skill. Not to the 50% that these people are seeing, but maybe to the 50% you want? To show you what progress I've been making, I made a line-up from my first digital work to my latest experiments and an estimation of when.
-Note that this is a bit biased, as I refrained from experimenting and improving when I was making P&Y's sprites and tried not to implement too many new things so that the sprites would be in the same art style, so there is a bit more time in between Rachel month 1 and practice month 1.1 that might serve as experience.
-Also note though that this is most definately not something I practiced every day, so as I wondered in my previous post, if you were to practice daily for a whole month and with an actual tablet instead of drawing with mouse (urgh...) then it's not impossible to get my month 2 in one month. (My Month 2 example being the style that I'm confident I can reproduce and uphold for my next project.)

Image

Sorry, the quality may have suffered a bit by putting them in paint and changing the sizes to match,
so any blurriness is partly because of me making a quick mock-up. (fuller size image here, still some resolution loss here.)

I do intend to get a tablet somewhere in the next week, so maybe I can update that ? with what an actual drawing would look like, but for now it's just my crappy mouse-made work. Feel free to multiply the quality with at least x1.5 for having a tablet, and pay most heed to day 1=>day 3 (and example 1 took me 2 days) because that is a legit argument for your idea that especially in the beginning there's a steep learning curve.

Conclusion: It comes down what your idea of 50% is, because the example in your OP is more difficult than both you and I think but my 50% (not a complete eye-sore) and the other's 50% (just around or below their current level I guess?) are quite a big difference. I do agree that, if you meant their definition of 100 and 50% that your estimates are way too low and lax, but if you meant my idea then maybe you can do it in 1 month.
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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#12 Post by sendo »

LiveTurkey wrote:As in to achieve 50% mastery would probably take a month
Why don't you try drawing for a month and find out if this is true?

I share the same sentiment as Lesleigh63, do it if art is something you need in your life. There's nothing wrong with doing art for fun, but if you want to take it seriously(which seems to be the case here), you have to do some reality checks.

It looks like you're already writing and coding for your project, those are 2 completely different disciplines you're taking on. Do you really want to add art on top of that? How much time would you spend doing art as opposed to writing and coding? It also seems like you're only thinking about character art, what about background art, are you willing to do those too? What about the UI, will you design it yourself since you're doing art and coding?
If the project is a success, will you continue doing art? If it doesn't, would you think art is a waste of time, what would you do with your art skills? Is art something you actually want to devote your next couple of years to?

My point is you're underestimating the creative process quite a bit. There's a reason people specialize in art, coding, and writing. Every one of them is just as hard to do as the others, not to mention the amount of time it would take to become proficient in them. I'm not saying it's impossible to do all of those together, but you have to be realistic.

My suggestion is to finish writing your story and code it using placeholder art, then try doing art, do it for a month and see if it's something you actually want to do, if not, at least you have a story ready and waiting for art.
Mammon wrote:Feel free to multiply the quality with at least x1.5 for having a tablet
That's not how it works. Having a tablet won't magically make your art better.
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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#13 Post by Mammon »

sendo wrote:
Mammon wrote:Feel free to multiply the quality with at least x1.5 for having a tablet
That's not how it works. Having a tablet won't magically make your art better.
Nope, but drawing with mouse will not-magically make it worse.
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Re: Should I start commissioning or learning how to draw?

#14 Post by TheJerminator15 »

Going off the link you provided in the original post, to get to the skill level to make something of that high quality? Years. Even for a prodigy.

You're really underestimating just how much goes into drawing and art as a whole. As others have stated above, there is a plethora of skills and tenets that go into creating art, especially to that high a level. To be frank, deluding yourself into thinking you can reach even 50% of that level within a month is only going to cause offence to people who do such a thing for a living or who have worked on their craft for years.

This is something that I see a lot in writing as well, on a related note, where people believe that they can simply take the time to sit down and their idea will magically translate into a masterpiece or publisher-worthy book if they go through a few rewrites. As a writer yourself you may understand where I come from if someone were to claim "If I really work hard at it, then in a month I should be able to reach 50% of the level of Aaron Sorkin or Stephen King". That may be said out of ignorance or with only positive intentions for that person's motivations, but by god it will rustle my jimmies and it will rustle them hard.

You may be able to learn basic anatomy within a month if you're incredibly focused on just that, but I would still say that would only be the basics. I've been drawing on and off for say 12 years, and my art's still horrible. You're also forgetting the time it takes to not only learn to draw, but to then learn the necessary software and how to translate to digital drawing, which can on its own take some time as well.

This is your first project, jumping into the deep end by creating a commercial game with a budget for art that indicates the game being on the somewhat long will only backfire in my opinion. Work on small, but easy to manage projects with placeholder art from creative commons. Once you have experience from that (and also from working on team projects, be it for NaNoReno or other projects" then I would suggest going ahead with a commercial project that you direct.

As for the original question. If you do not actually enjoy drawing, then nothing good will come of learning it for your work in my mind. You would be spending years mastering something that you either are apathetic about or dislike, which will only damage your other work. If you enjoy writing, then stick to that on work on it.
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