Opinions about making games as a hobby/working for free

[Jo'ogn]

In search for graphic artists for my projects I was looking at a German game developper forum (USF) I was taken aback at the attitude that ppl showed as someone asked "why ppl are not willing to take part in free projects?"

Form "a waste of time to work for free", or an outright "I would never work for free" the atmosphere wasn't really motivating/encouraging/inspiring.

I am torn if I truly want to go back into "professional" Game Design. A friend of mine considers to study "art design", because she says, she likes to draw and could learn sth there and hone her skills. I am not sure if this is what is going to happen at a college.

Initial artist might end up doing simple logos for companies. Or write 4 four word slogans for advertisment, but not doing charatcer art, comics, or manga etc... 3D artist might end up doing nothing but military vehicles for war games... in huge companies maybe even just certain part of the models.

Some in here want to create some cash with their games - nothing against that - so would I, too.

Basically I just wonder why there seems to be so much hesitation, or doubt to work on projects just for the fun of it? (esp in Germany obviously) I mean in comparison to 40 to 50 years of working life isn't there room for a mind and soul balancing fun hobby?

[papillon]

If someone is an artist as their entire source of income, it is not fair to expect them to spend a large chunk of their workday working for you for free. The artist has to make a living. And if they're doing paid art all day long, they may not feel at all interested in doing EVEN MORE of the same work in their evenings for free! A fulltime manga artist looking for a hobby is probably going to want a totally different hobby in which they can relax and not have to draw.

On the other hand, if someone is a chemist as their source of income but also likes to draw, they're more likely to consider drawing a hobby and be willing to do it for free or cheap. However, the amount of time they can spend on it is less, because they're busy all day with their real job, and probably the quality is less, because they don't have as much training and practice in art.

If someone is a professional artist who works all day doing art that they find personally boring, then they might consider another art project in a totally different style to be a rewarding 'hobby', but it would need to be something that was personally motivating to them. Not just doing even yet still more 'work' without even getting paid for it.

Generally, if you want someone to work for free, don't ask a professional!

[DaFool]

Put up a single event CG on Deviantart, and you can watch circlejerks flood the comments section with compliments.

Now, create tons of event CGs, plus sprites, plus backgrounds, for a visual novel, and you will have way less comments regarding the art. Maybe a 'nice art', or 'I like this background, but the other one's a little drab'.

Most of the praise will go to the writer, who if he or she is really good, can probably create a captivating story with stick figures anyway.

Now what's the motivation left for the artist to work for free, if he or she's going to put in as many hours as the writer, and then there's not going to even be a minor ego boost?

As someone not professionally trained in the arts, I'm a good candidate for 'working for free' because using Photoshop is a hobby that's different from patching workstations. But with more experience and as my skills improve to a point where the result is moderately decent, I'm only considering co-productions now. With shared copyrights, I have a vested interest in a project. I can't treat something as 'Here ya go... you want fries with that?" since I would also want to make sure the art is the best I can do at that time given the time constraints. Notice that most one-off piecemeal commissions tend to be paid, and they are few in number. If you want an artist to be on board the entire project run and involved in the overall design, there must be more motivation. If not promise of money, then promise of ego.

[Jo'ogn]

Maybe at heart I approach the whole subject differently? I don't expect a professional artist to work for free - that goes without saying. And depending on how much an artists takes part in the project I do share the credits. I like cooperation in a creative sense. (As we have other topics concerning making money with art/games I'll leave this part out here)

But "ego" might be a good keyword. So what keeps some ppl away is their ego? A fear of not being recognised enough, valued decently, or paid properly - either in cash, or fame?


As I am not a graphical artist i don't know much about devian art. I have problems getting through this site anyway. As a sound/music artist I tend to be in the background of projects as well. Many ppl recognise only the visuals. They don't realise that one of the main reasons of their great experience was good sound. But personally I am already a happy if just a few comment my work. I do not know how i would deal with fame that brings in a few dozen compliments a day. In fact I switched off the comments in my most famous youtube video. Mostly because comments are just "lol" anyway >_>

[Jake]

Put up a single event CG on Deviantart, and you can watch circlejerks flood the comments section with compliments.

Now, create tons of event CGs, plus sprites, plus backgrounds, for a visual novel, and you will have way less comments regarding the art. Maybe a 'nice art', or 'I like this background, but the other one's a little drab'.

Realistically, DeviantArt doesn't fill up with mindless congratulations unless you've deliberately cultivated a list of followers to masturbate over you. Most art that gets posted to DA gets silently ignored, because the front page moves too fast these days for anyone to get anything from it, so artists only get their work noticed if they have a list of watchers who get notifications.

And, realistically, I expect the same is true of VNs. People fall over themselves to congratulate Mikey for creating two pieces for NaNo. I'm not saying that either of them are bad - I enjoyed them both - but I think it's safe to say that if it wasn't Mikey, those games probably wouldn't have got so many plays, let alone so many comments. Mikey happens to be a writer, but we haven't really seen anyone who's really good at art making more than one game, to be honest. There are those artists who the forum drools over - Deji, Mikan, Doomfest et al - and the nearest we've come to seeing a game from one of them thus far was Deji's short demo a while ago. I seem to recall there were a fair number of compliments about the art, but I guess I could be wrong...

To the point, no-one has really been in the position to gain such a cult for art as Mikey has for writing, so it's not reasonable to suggest that the artist just gets ignored. In fact, several times the topic has come up and many people have said that they could happily play a badly-written game with spectacular art, but that more people wouldn't play a spectacularly-written game with bad art.

[Aleema]

In my opinion, the reason it is hard to get others to work for you for free is because, when you ask someone who has no connection to the project, it is not a hobby, but a job. And why give yourself more work? A hobby means that you want to do it, and you may not realize that at that point, you're the only one in the world that gives a crap about your game.

Unless you're doing fanart, artists have little to no motivation to draw someone else's characters and such, because it's like being commissioned. And the only reason people would suffer being commission for free is to build their portfolio ... which again, is for work. Being commissioned can be stressful, because you do have to follow someone stranger's vision and not your own. Where's the fun in that? Where's the motivation to complete? None of your heart in is it, because you don't care. Some schmuck approached you over the internet and asked you to labor yourself unnecessarily for months ... he said "please"!

Ego, or whatever similar word you use, is not what keeps people from doing it. When it comes to hobbies, there's no reward in putting blood and sweat into something that they don't care about. And you have to face it, no one cares about your game. It's a harsh fact, I know, but that's the truth. =\ If they're bored, they'll do it. But chances are that they have plenty of hobbies themselves, even if it's making games of their own. People are really only interested in doing their own things. It's selfish, but that's what hobbies are: acts done to gratify ourselves. But you could have the worst self-confidence in the world and still be adamant about not take up a request to do someone's art for free. There's just no motivation. At least, that's my take on it. =\

[delta]

There is no real English VN market, so if you're making a true longform VN, you can't expect to make money back. Hence you really can't pay anyone (unless you do it as a hobby, but I waste enough of my free time on this already to additionally spend money on top of it). So the best bet is to find people with a similar mindset and work truly collaboratively.

Not to mention that my position is technical/director, and people in that area would sooner do it themselves than pay anyone for it. I think this whole discussion really only applies to artists, because they are most likely to be pro when they are good, and they also have the most to lose (the art style is always the most public front-end to a VN, and it's easily recognizable, thus invariably associated with the artist).

[Jo'ogn]

Most art that gets posted to DA gets silently ignored, because the front page moves too fast these days for anyone to get anything from it

I was thinking basically the same. Now I have an Xbox with over 200 games, and I though I am only at the letter D I have already deleted quite a lot... There is certain down-side to too much offers. I need a new screen for my consoles, but the shops overwhelm me with over 100 different screens...

Same goes for latent artists and ppl on the web and our Renpy games. I am actually thankful that this community is considerably small. I need to 'force' me to comment a renpy game to show - "hey, I actually played it and I like this and disliked that bit of it". Simply because I want others not to totally ignore my work either - but there is only so much a human can do per day.

And then we all have different tastes/preferances on top of it. I am into interactive games and totally skip KNs as not entertaining enough - they might be 'good' nonetheless, but they are not on my radar of interest.

but I think it's safe to say that if it wasn't Mikey, those games probably wouldn't have got so many plays, let alone so many comments.

Games need advertisement. The moment they appear on ad banners and on TV, radio, in mags they 'drill' their way into our awareness and ppl think "oh wow, I must have/play that". How many ppl have played the original Metal Gear games? Konami spent $7 million on advertising MGS in 1997 giving away free games as well. It is a good game, but if you don't know it you likely won't play it.

The Renpy VNs are considerably small and quickly played through. Hell, I played through three VNs last night and had to look up again the names of your characters to post in your topic. If your name shows up often enough your name will speak for yourself - this is what mikey does. He is active on this form for a long time and ppl know him. A new person is likely to be ignored until they have 'drilled' their way into other's awareness.

To the point, no-one has really been in the position to gain such a cult for art as Mikey has for writing, so it's not reasonable to suggest that the artist just gets ignored.

But this is also because of how you present your game. Who knows who John William is? Or David Hayter? Ron Gilbert? I myself do not care much about names. But if you say "Star Wars", "Metal Gear Solid" and "Monkey Island" those artist's names suddenly fall into place with much more ppl.

[Jo'ogn]

you may not realize that at that point, you're the only one in the world that gives a crap about your game.

But this is also the case with many ppl going to regular work. They do not give a damn, but do it anyway. Why? Because they get paid?

On the other hand I am working for other projects and while I might be in different levels be involved I ~chose~ to take part, because there is a part that interests me. So i am an exception to your rule. I do care for other's projects - to a certain point of course, because I respect their work and do not try to sabotage them - but this is my personal ethic. This would be a way of being selfish that I can accept in cooperative work.

artists have little to no motivation to draw someone else's characters and such, because it's like being commissioned. And the only reason people would suffer being commission for free is to build their portfolio ...

This is exactly the sort of opinion, that I find hard to accept. If one does not care, why offering ones help to begin with it? Isn't that hypocritical? If they just do it for their own good, than rather stay away from my project. I do not ask anybody to 'force' themselves to 'love' my project. Either I like sth and this is why i get involved, or I kindly decline.

But this is exactly what is happening. There are fickle ppl that seem to volunteer for voice acting, role playing or drawing and then 'suddenly' realise that they suck at school and need to learn more, or their cat got hair and they have no time anymore and drop out leaving others hanging - because they do not care.

Obviously we talk here about different ppl. Those like you describe should not volunteer for other's projects, because they are like (unpaid though) employees, they do sth only for the pay off, not because they like to do it.

There are are musicians that you hand piece of scores and they will play it, they are like machines. They cannot compose, they are not composing artists, they are performers. The same might be true for some ppl who draw. They might have no creativety on their own, but they can draw and therefore they seek for projects.

Same goes for my role playing i dont like to make my own stories. ilook for the very few appealing RPGs that have a defined slot and if ihappen to like that setting I apply and usually those Rpers are pretty happy to play with me - because I care and I have fun doing that, because I chose to play on their terms, but in a setting where I can unfold my own creativity.

Ego, or whatever similar word you use, is not what keeps people from doing it. When it comes to hobbies, there's no reward in putting blood and sweat into something that they don't care about. And you have to face it, no one cares about your game.

Oh for me this is pretty much an "ego thing", because this artist is too smug to care for others, just for themselves. I have experienced such ppl in my life. Either in hobby projecs as well as in paid 'professional works'. In both areas they tend to be destructive. Actively or passively sabotaging the others efforts. They want to do 'their' thing because they are unfit to cooperate - this is how i call it. "I am an artist! I need my creative freedom! I only work for myself." Sure if you lack the social skills then do only that.

[Aleema]

Oh for me this is pretty much an "ego thing", because this artist is too smug to care for others, just for themselves. I have experienced such ppl in my life. Either in hobby projecs as well as in paid 'professional works'. In both areas they tend to be destructive. Actively or passively sabotaging the others efforts. They want to do 'their' thing because they are unfit to cooperate - this is how i call it. "I am an artist! I need my creative freedom! I only work for myself." Sure if you lack the social skills then do only that.

I hate to say it, but "too smug to care for others" sounds more like you at this point. =\ Hobbies aren't automatically charity, donations, or volunteer work. And if they are, they still satisfy some personal desire. You're asking people to be completely selfless, which in turn makes you look a bit selfish. I realize you're frustrated with not having people throw themselves are your feet with your art, but that's life. Stuff isn't free ... there needs to be some sort of trade to intice people to work for you (or "with" you). Voice actors get a radioplay/fandub for their hard work, and the person asking for the voices is usually the mixer (and mixing is hard work!). Artists don't really get anything other than exhibition. You don't transform their artwork into something different per se ... If you offered to animate their work, for instance, they would be more inclined to draw for you. It's not about cooperation or teamwork if you think about it ... I'm sure they're amazing people to work with and could even be your long lost soulmate. I'm sure they're very capable of caring about many things --that's really irrelevant, though.

You seem to have a lot of hostility towards these nameless people who don't give you free art ... perhaps they pick up on that? You should realise that producers are fickle people, too. I've seen just as many producers drop out of projects as the participants, frankly. We all want some sort of result, payback, or reward for hard work. And with no guarantee of a finished product, money is the first clear option.

[Jo'ogn]

they still satisfy some personal desire.

Else these things wouldn't be my hobbies =D

You're asking people to be completely selfless, which in turn makes you look a bit selfish. I realize you're frustrated with not having people throw themselves are your feet with your art, but that's life. Stuff isn't free ... there needs to be some sort of trade

Of course it is partly selfish, but the trade is in offering opportunities. If there is someone with a voice but no abilities to mix or produce they may offer their voice for other's productions and this what some gladly do! Same goes for drawn art. If someone can draw, but can't write, or program, they get the opportunity to see their art in another's project.

At this point the comparison with single-sided-selfishness isn't really there any more. Beause it has become a cooperation. An audio play is characterised by the voice talents involved, even if I directed and wrote the script for them. They might never get the chance to get into professional - i.e. paid - voice acting/drawing. Some get their practise due to such projects and through the release of free productions they might eventually get scouted for paid productions.

I do not see how this should be any different with drawn art. In fact there are enough aspiring artists who need this kick in the ass to do sth to begin with else they would do nothing but occasional sketches - many creative ppl lack discipline - I can tell, because ~I~ do. But I can also focus - sometimes... o_0

Voice actors get a radioplay/fandub for their hard work, and the person asking for the voices is usually the mixer (and mixing is hard work!). Artists don't really get anything other than exhibition.

And between giving your voice for an audio play and your art for a game - where is the exact difference? That you have better chances to become more of a celebritiy in voice/film acting? Is this the frustration between your lines?

There is nothing that is not for free. Only through your financial trade you apply a non-free label on it. But from where do you get the value of anything? It's made up.

And there is sth you left out. I was speaking as well about paid artists who acted smug and destructive. So how do those ppl fit into your picture? They apply for a work, get the contract and then don't do what they are supposed to for the money they get paid.

It's not about cooperation or teamwork if you think about it. I'm sure they're amazing people to work with and could even be your long lost soulmate. I'm sure they're very capable of caring about many things --that's really irrelevant, though.

I do not consider that part 'irrelevant'. What is it then to you?

You seem to have a lot of hostility towards these nameless people who don't give you free art

The thing that I do not like is offering help and then dropping out. If one doesnt want to help, doesn't offer it. That is my guideline. But you are right, nobody has to give a damn about this selfish guideline of mine.

We all want some sort of result, payback, or reward for hard work. And with no guarantee of a finished product, money is the first clear option.

While I do like to see my projects be finished, still there is another form of 'payback': the sheer fun during the process of doing it. Some ppl only play games in order to win them. I can play games without the need to win over the other, but to enjoy playing with them. This is what I call cooperation - as opposed to competition.

[uluuu]

Art is hard, and even harder when its being done for someone else.
Some people have very specific visions of what something should be like, but they don't know how to explain it, some people are just jerks that you don't want to work with.
If someone has to make a lot of things, it's pretty easy to get burnt out. And some artists have lives of their own, in which things happen. The things that happen might make it difficult or impossible to create anything. Sometimes, people actually value their time and effort. Supplies usually cost money, too.
Even if someone volunteers to help out on a project, why should they keep working if it turns out that they don't like what they end up having to do, or they can't stand the other people working on the project, or whatever else? Sure, it's pretty lame if someone drops out in the middle of something, but if they feel they aren't getting anything out of it at all, be it money or a good experience, I don't think that it's really a bad thing.

[Taleweaver]

To get back at the original point of this thread:

Basically I just wonder why there seems to be so much hesitation, or doubt to work on projects just for the fun of it? (esp in Germany obviously) I mean in comparison to 40 to 50 years of working life isn't there room for a mind and soul balancing fun hobby?

In my opinion, the answer to that question is rather simple. People are inclined to work on projects just for the fun of it if:

1) the project is actually fun for them
2) they can identify with the final result even if they only contributed one part to it
3) they are willing to put time and effort into something they would normally be paid for

1) is probably the easiest. If you're looking for an artist and start giving him or her instructions like "this guy stands exactly 5'11" tall wearing a midnight-blue Hugo Boss blazer with four buttons, a mauve shirt made of raw silk underneath, a belt with the face of Paris Hilton as a buckle...", it's probably less "fun" for an artist than if he can put some creativity of his own into the project.

2) means you need to tell your artist exactly what you're planning to do. Maybe people would help you with art for an interactive media presentation but would never consider doing "graphics" for a "video game". Maybe someone's really good at drawing attractive men but cannot stand the idea of seeing his creations star in a story about homosexual love.

3) means that if your artist does paint, draw or design for a living, he needs to find compensation elsewhere - usually in 1) and 2). Or he/she's a really good friend of yours, and even then you should consider 1) and 2).

[Vatina]

This:

Art is hard, and even harder when its being done for someone else.

And what Taleweaver said. (Others pointed this out as well).

To say it bluntly - no one is going to do something for free that they don't care about. The artist really has to have passion for your project, which is hard to get from someone you're just picking up from somewhere out there. It's easier to be excited about your own stuff than what others do.
The idea can seem cool at first, but maybe they will realise later that they get no fun from working on your project. And it turns into what feels like an unpaid job. So actually it's better that they tell you up front that they won't do things like that, right?
(That, and a lot of artists actually also have bad experiences with writers and producers running off, and wasting their time.)

And then of course there are the rare occasions where you manage to find someone who really loves the idea, and wants to work on it together with you, and things will be fine. But it's rare and really not as simple as throwing art at something that gives you the opportunity to do so.

[Aleema]

The thing that I do not like is offering help and then dropping out. If one doesnt want to help, doesn't offer it. That is my guideline. But you are right, nobody has to give a damn about this selfish guideline of mine.

It sounds like you've been burnt before by someone dropping out. I understand that that's frustrating. I'm a producer of fandubs and I have to work a large amount of VAs, and they often drop out. But I've learned that you really can't take it on a personal level. It's honestly not a direct reflection of the person's personality or character. As much as we try to fashion the internet to be like real life, the physical barrier does create something of a new world with new social rules. Disappearing is remarkably easier here than just not returning someone's phone call. Even the best of people can be caught ignorning an email or two. It happens to everyone, because even if we spend lots of time on the internet, it will never be our life.

As producers, we can sit here and say "don't offer help unless you plan to follow through" all day, but our chances of getting complete work in the end are the same (or worse, because of the attitude the sentence conveys). Something else has to factor in before our chances improve. Money is one of the those factors. Having a name for yourself is another factor. Giving previews and demos are more.

If someone can draw, but can't write, or program, they get the opportunity to see their art in another's project.

Perhaps it's the mentality of it being "another's project", and not their own. When I work with VAs, I always make it seem like it is their project. They are the stars and make up the beef of the product. With a visual novel, the writing is considered to be the "beef", even though it wouldn't be a visual novel without visuals! So it's a more thankless job perhaps ...

And between giving your voice for an audio play and your art for a game - where is the exact difference? That you have better chances to become more of a celebritiy in voice/film acting? Is this the frustration between your lines?

This is a good question. There has to be some difference that makes me immediately go "no, they're not the same" in my head.

Things in common: They are both creative arts that are sought over the internet from strangers for personal projects. They rely heavily on the talent following through with their task. They both can be directed to the vision of the producer.

Voice Acting:
- Can be considered a more obscure hobby than drawing.
- Involves the art of acting, which is subjective in quality, but can be more forgivable than drawing.
- Exact lines needed to be read are provided for the actor, they don't have to come up with them on their own.
- Usually done by amatuers (unpaid) and fans of the projects they are auditioning for. Most having likely never been paid for voicework in the past.
- The time it takes to record a specific line of dialogue takes as long as it does to say it. Lines can be redone easily by just saying them over.
- Actors are generally given more freedom.
- Acting can be considered fun because it transports people to another world, and also can be a vain thing because it puts them in the spotlight.

Drawing:
- Is an artform more widely recognized than amatuer voice acting.
- Involves the art of anatomy, perception, color, imagination, and more.
- Requires the artist to be able to translate a client's descriptions into their art, sometimes sacrificing their own ideas.
- Art is done by all levels of expertise. It is also more likely that a person has been paid for art in the past, especially if they have an online portfolio.
- Drawing takes time to draw to properly excersize an artist's skill. Much longer than voice acting, if the artist holds their work in esteem.
- Drawing can be considered fun because it allows people to have their thoughts and ideas seem more tangible and real.

Okay, so that took a lot of time. It's not a perfect list, but what can I conclude from it? Well, drawing is more complex than voice acting. It requires a lot more internal talent, not that I want to offend my fellow VAs. In my experience, drawing is a very personal thing. It's meant to express yourself. So having to express someone else is simply going to be harder.

Slice of life ...
One of my classmates asked me to help him edit a video out of the blue. It wasn't for class or anything, it was just a personal project of his. I said yes, because that was the nice thing to do, and I was flattered that he asked. So I showed up at the time we agreed to meet even though I was dead tired. I sat there and did nothing for a good two hours while we captured video from his tape. The next time we met, I basically had to add all the effects for him, and directly advised him where he should make cuts, etc. In short, contributed a lot to that video. It was pratically mine. But the credits were: "HIS NAME ... special thanks to me." He called me again to work on the next video the series. I did not answer the phone. I felt bad, but I don't regret it. I must be an awful, awful person, right? To give my evening to myself, and not to him? Maybe, but then perhaps being awful is part of being human. =O