itch.io changed its ToS

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bosinpai
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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#16 Post by bosinpai » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:51 pm

@Imperf3kt I believe that's the intent, however it's like a friend asking for a blank check when all they need is to borrow a couple bucks.

@mikolajspy I say one cannot grants rights on something one don't have the copyright for - what are you talking about? :)

Aside from that, no answer from itch.io yet.

EDIT: fixed typo
Last edited by bosinpai on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#17 Post by mikolajspy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:34 pm

bosinpai wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:51 pm
@mikolajspy I say one cannot grants rights on something one don't have the copyright for - what are you talking about? :)
Copyrights and licensing rights are two different things. Copyright always belongs to the original author, unless he will give them to someone else.
License, is the permission to use copyrighted work. Either with or withour crediting the copyright holder (author).

So when you read RenPy license, it states that you're given free licensing rights to sublicense, copy, modify etc. etc. - the same what itch.io wants. So if Ren'Py license says you can do the things any platform wants to give, you can do it. Similar with assets - even if they are copyrighted, the license might allow to distribute it - always read carefuly what you're allowed, and what not, for example educational license doesn't allow to use it for generating revenue in any way.
The only thing you can never do is claiming the copyright - you can't say that you're the original author if it's not true.

TL:DR; You grant a LICENSE, if you have one (for assets), to itch.io and most other services. COPYRIGHTS, ownership is still yours or whoever created the asset.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#18 Post by bosinpai » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:41 pm

@mikolajspy I think there's a misunderstanding.
(gosh, was I so unclear somehow, that you believed I confused basic copyright concepts?)

Indeed RenPy's license per-se is so permissive that you don't really care about itch's new terms.
However this doesn't apply to e.g. Unity, whose license is far less permissive.
Neither to all of RenPy's listed dependencies, actually (in particular LGPL/copyleft licenses).

For assets, all I'm saying is if you e.g. have a CC BY-ND song in your game, you're allowed to distribute it on your own website, but you can't grant modification rights (or precisely a "license to [...] prepare derivative works") on it to itch.io, so technically you're not allowed to distribute it on itch.

So please don't jump on me saying "Yes, we can" if that only applies to a small part of the submitted game :)

In any case, I still don't wish to grant an unlimited license on my games/code/assets when I merely publish it somewhere - still waiting for itch.io's answer.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#19 Post by Imperf3kt » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:33 pm

You are aware that exemptions apply to certain licenses and I'm fairly sure advertisement comes under that.
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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#20 Post by Ermytarya » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:03 pm

Royalty free? i dont like the sound of that.
I was thinking in hosting a VN i am working on itchio, but i don't like giving them "royalty free" licence on my IP. Glad i haven't uploaded anything on itchio yet.
Ah! too bad! it looked like a cool hosting site! I hope they change that part of their ToS.

Even if their intention of doing this was advertising the game, it still allows them to use the assets of a game however they like it.
It would have been better if they just charge a fee for hosting there but giving royalty free rights? No, thanks, i am not working hard just to give my stuff as free assets. :(

For example, there is a site that has lots of comics hosted in there, that same site adverstises comics from their "discovery" side on their main page from time to time, but they never claim any type of "royalty free" to be able to do so in their ToS. Thus i dont see why itchio needs this "royalty free" thing, It's very suspicious.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#21 Post by Imperf3kt » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:28 pm

Did you miss the part where it states 'for advertising purposes'
Its not like they're going to make their own game from yours. They're going to put screenshots that you provide (not random assets they take from anywhere) on their website.
It was also stated it would be limited to within the itch.io platform, thus never going outside your audience anyway.

In other words; exactly what they were doing before the change to TOS, just with a bit more ass covering on their end in case something goes south.
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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#22 Post by Ermytarya » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:20 am

Yes, i did read that part, just because they say its for advertising purposes that does not mean they will actually honor those words.
I did not say they were going to take it out of their website. They can perfectly use it within their own website.
And even if they use them in their plataform i dont think they should have the need of royalty free license over games hosted there to be able to do the advertising, it can be perfectly be done without that clause.
As i said, there are other sites with similar hosting services and they dont ask for royalty free to be able to advertise people on their website, that's all i was trying to say.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#23 Post by Imperf3kt » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:03 am

I think you misunderstood.
The royalty free license isn't for your game, its for artwork you supply to be used as advertising.
They can't just pick and choose whatever they want, nor can they modify anything you supply.

Again, this change covers itch.io from legal action should you upload something you don't have a license to.
The royalty free part ensures any artwork you supply for the purpose of advertising, can be used free of charge by itch.io

The reason you don't see such a clause on other services is because on other services, you pay them to showcase your game. On itch.io, they host it for free.

From the link in the opening post:
You own it. You can take it down at any time. But, by using this service you grant itch.io permission to use promotional material you have provided for your Digital Content (screenshots, cover-images, videos) on other parts of the site in order to link to or showcase your Digital Content.
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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#24 Post by mikolajspy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:31 am

Ehh... People, if you don't understand legal terms, why don't you listen to me - Business Management student(graduate in few months), 3D asset seller since few years - I've dealt with lot's of agreements and legal analysis, so I know what I'm saying and I say once again: it's not like they claim ownership of your game.

If you don't like the agreement terms, just don't put your product there, end of story.
itch.io might never answer, because it's so plain and easy, so maybe if you don't understand what you're signing up for, just don't it? If they do answer, I guarantee it will be just as I said.
This is not a personal offense towards anyone, but a general statement. Game dev is business.

And I'd reccomend to pack the files in game-engine archives, almost all engines have it, even Ren'Py. And reverse-engineering usually is not allowed by default, so even if they'd like to, they simply won't have access to source files.

Let's take a look and compare:
Unity Asset Store - the biggest asset marketplace - https://unity3d.com/legal/as_provider - paragraph 6.1
Unreal Marketplace - also known asset shop - https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/mark ... -agreement - paragraph 1, a&b
I can point a few more, but it's pointless, all are the same or very similar. Does anyone complains? Not really.

OK, let's do legal interpretation, so you guys could understand it and end it once for all. Source: https://itch.io/docs/legal/terms - paragraph 4.
Publishers are solely responsible for the content they upload and distribute on itch.io. Publishers affirm, represent, and warrant that they own or have the rights, licenses, permissions and consents necessary to publish, duplicate, and distribute the submitted content.
You MUST have all necessary rights to use what you created - from engine to tiniest music or image piece. If license of it does not allow it - well, don't use it?
By submitting content to the Service for distribution, Publishers also grant a license to the Company for all patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other proprietary rights in and to the Content for publication on the Service, pursuant to this Agreement.
for publication on the Service - this is the important, self-explaining part. So they won't use files in any other way than to publish and promote. It just covers you that if they use copyrighted content, you're to blame, not them.
The Company does not endorse copyright infringing activities or other intellectual property infringing activities and violations of may result in the removal of content if the Company is notified of such violations. Removal and termination of accounts may occur without prior notice.
If you use something you don't have license or copyrights (rights to use), you will be removed - that's rather obvious, break the law and you're out.

AND HERE'S THE MOST IMPORTANT PART:
Publishers retain all ownership rights to the submitted content, and by submitting content to the Service, Publishers hereby grant the following:
Publishers retain all ownsership rights - Do I really have to explain it? They're not taking your hard work.
To the Company, a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the content in connection with the Service, including without limitation for promoting, redistributing in any and all media formats. If you choose to remove your content from the Service, this license shall terminate within a commercially reasonable time after you remove your content from the Service.
OK, let's go step by step with this what each word means:
worldwide - no country limiatations
non-exclusive - you're free to distribute game on any other store
royalty-free - they don't pay you FOR JUST being there over time, it's way different than revenue royalty, don't mix those up
sublicensable - they can do a smaller license for others (end users) - usually like "just play, don't resell it" in very summed up version
transferable - the can transfer this license further (end users)

[...]license to:
reproduce - those are digital files, they need to be copied in order for customer to have them
distribute - well, that's why the platform exists, right?
prepare derivative works of - ok, this is where most of you go scared, but in reality it means like archiving it in some wrapper or other things that allows it to function within the store. And we need to differentiate "derviate work" of game and single asset. Of course, if license says you can't modify the song, you don't do it.
perform the content - just a legal word of "use and public display"
including without limitation for promoting, redistributing in any and all media formats
They can take your *.png and convert it *.jpg and crop it to fit their templates to show on the site. We want our work to be visible, after all.

The same goes with lower part, what Users can:
perpetual license - they can use it whenever they want, without time limitations
the rest is similar but take a look at this part
as permitted through the functionality of the Service
so users can't resell the work or do anything like that.

Uff... There, you have it.

You can also take a look at paragraphs 11, 12 and 16 - they are just to cover them in case there's any issue.
Everything is there to not have to deal with stuff like this: https://www.solidsmack.com/cad-design-n ... r-designs/ ; they can't check every single game, so by accepting the agreement, you, personally, confirm that what you're doing is legal.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#25 Post by bosinpai » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:53 pm

Hmm, let's recap:

- itch.io does need a license grant from us for hosting our games. I think we agree on that.

- Its terms are now broad/overreaching, and might be used for evil purposes in the future. In think we agree on that too.

- So it would be best if itch.io made their terms of service more balanced. Can we agree on that ?

If yes, let's have a lot of people ask them about it.
Also, twitted https://twitter.com/bosinpai/status/1006955531196600320

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#26 Post by Imperf3kt » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:49 pm

How evil we talking? Evil enough to steal my cookies? Because that would be terrible.
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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#27 Post by bosinpai » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:23 pm

Sent a couple PMs directly re:pure-legalese to offload the thread a bit.

EDIT: some people read the wrong ToS which caused confusion.
Looks like we all agree on the issue, just not on what to do with it.
Last edited by bosinpai on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#28 Post by Ermytarya » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:45 am

Nah , i dont think Itchio would steal any game, that would be the doom of their site.
I was just saying they dont need royalty free license, because i have seen other sites who host stuff for free, promote stuff without the need of royalty free license.
I was just annoyed by my assets being ussed as "free assets"

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#29 Post by bosinpai » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:00 pm

Well no news :|
It would probably help if they were challenged by other people :mrgreen:

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Re: itch.io changed its ToS

#30 Post by Morhighan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:17 pm

bosinpai wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:00 pm
It would probably help if they were challenged by other people
Are you suggesting that others harass itch.io because you don't understand their TOS?

I've tried looking at it from your angle, but reading the legalese leads me to agree with the interpretation presented by @mikolajspy and @Imperf3kt, which is to say, nothing but semantics have changed.

This thread seems to be nothing but some folks having an apocalyptic reaction, other folks breaking it down step by step to attempt damage control, and the doomsday sayers ignoring said damage control. Please take a breath and wait a few more days before leading a harassment campaign. I'm pretty sure the support team at moonscript has more urgent issues to handle before doing damage control for semantics, so cool thine jets, please.

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