All about Main Characters!

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LVUER
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Re: All about Main Characters!

#16 Post by LVUER »

F.I.A wrote:Purely theoretical. And just how are we supposed to relate to a guy that has hax cutting skill and perception? Or one with a sworn servant? What about one with twelve? Or one with an acute case of stroke? Or one with a messed-up brain(That sees thing ugly as pretty and vice versa)?

Unless they are characters with a blank face, the purpose of a story is to allow us to roleplay as those we can't dream of becoming. Or to see things from their views.

To stay on-topic, I will tell you some of the criterias I have problem with. Yes, those that make a character booooooring.
- One that cannot even get a set name.
- One that cannot even get used with the environment around him. Give him a hi-tech tv bundled with the step-by-step manual, and he cannot even set it up. A farmer kid like Hideki from Chobits for instance.
- One that thinks that he knows all but not really. Think of a private that thinks he is better with surviving 10 battles(No injury) compared to veterans that went through 100 and more.
- One that does nothing but mops around and whines this bad or that bad. (Yes, Shinji from Evangelion. I am looking at you.)
Yes, this one has been discussed over and over. Perhaps it's theoritical but well at least we tried. Besides, it's just another attempt to make better games, don't let it kill your creativity.

Still, even if the protagonist have their own personality and distinct "things" that make him different from us, and make harder for us to relate... the game still want to to relate with the protagonist as much as possible (while still have difference as characters).

One good example is Halo. I believe I have wrote this once that Halo strong point is not the graphics or the story, rather it's presentation. Master Chief is Master Chief. But Halo manage to make us feel that it is we that do battle in that Mjolnir Armor.

BTW, your way is saying is like, hey if you can't fly, don't bother fly in jets or airplane. After all, humans life on the ground.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#17 Post by sake-bento »

I wrote a first person story once from the point of view of someone who had some serious mental disorders that made it difficult for him to interact socially.

The feedback I got was mixed. Some readers didn't like his seemingly incoherent personality, and they couldn't understand his actions at all, even with access to his innermost thoughts. Others just thought it was plain weird, because they couldn't identify with him.

Some of this I could chalk up to the fact that I'm not the world's greatest writer (for an example of this done right, try "Flowers for Algernon"). But part of it really is that such an unusual lead is just hard to read and get along with.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#18 Post by pinkmouse »

anon wrote:If you think everyone else's characters are so boring, then make your own.
It's as simple as that. Don't complain, especially if you haven't offered any yourself.
Oh dear!

I didn't mean "everything everyone has produced is rubbish" - certainly not. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I'm really enjoying "Each Uisge" (sp?) for example, and I'm going to post some feedback once I've got all the endings. I've also dipped into "When I Rule the World" (but had to stop hurriedly when my boss came back into the office :oops: )

I was just commenting that the "totally blank main character" is one style of writing for a VN, when for a long time it was assumed to be the only way.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#19 Post by F.I.A »

LVUER wrote:Yes, this one has been discussed over and over. Perhaps it's theoritical but well at least we tried.
Define "tried".
Besides, it's just another attempt to make better games, don't let it kill your creativity.
Character creation is part of the game-making, not some extras.
Still, even if the protagonist have their own personality and distinct "things" that make him different from us, and make harder for us to relate... the game still want to to relate with the protagonist as much as possible (while still have difference as characters).
This is roleplaying, or in other words, to be in someone's else shoes.
One good example is Halo. I believe I have wrote this once that Halo strong point is not the graphics or the story, rather it's presentation. Master Chief is Master Chief. But Halo manage to make us feel that it is we that do battle in that Mjolnir Armor.
What stories are we talking again? Let's keep this discussion limited to visual novels please.
BTW, your way is saying is like, hey if you can't fly, don't bother fly in jets or airplane. After all, humans life on the ground.
Extract from my last post
F.I.A wrote:Unless they are characters with a blank face, the purpose of a story is to allow us to roleplay as those we can't dream of becoming. Or to see things from their views.


EDIT: Meh, I am not going to bother posting in this thread again.
Last edited by F.I.A on Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: All about Main Characters!

#20 Post by anon »

pinkmouse wrote: Oh dear!

I didn't mean "everything everyone has produced is rubbish" - certainly not. I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I'm really enjoying "Each Uisge" (sp?) for example, and I'm going to post some feedback once I've got all the endings. I've also dipped into "When I Rule the World" (but had to stop hurriedly when my boss came back into the office :oops: )

I was just commenting that the "totally blank main character" is one style of writing for a VN, when for a long time it was assumed to be the only way.

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>w> Don't worry. I wasn't talking to you. I was just responding to the main post.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#21 Post by Eniko »

It's kinda like the older jRPGs. Where the main character often was a mute, personalityless blank slate besides looks and abilities. Like Chrono or The Hero from Secret of Mana. I always found it harder to relate to characters like that, not easier. I much prefer main characters who have a unique personality and background and part to play in the story.

And yes, their personality might be annoying, that doesn't necessarily mean you can't relate to the character.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#22 Post by KimiYoriBaka »

I really don't think a boring main character is much of a problem. When I see that kind of thing in stories, I just start paying attention to the other characters. I mean, why should every character in a story be interesting anyway? It's more realistic to throw a simple airhead into the mix.
F.I.A. wrote:Define "tried".
:shock: That's kinda mean...
This is roleplaying, or in other words, to be in someone's else shoes.
I completely disagree. I get into stories of any type (anime,manga,vn,etc...) because I want to be entertained by an interesting story. For me, the main reason for roleplaying is that it's fun to have a hand in the flow of the story.
What stories are we talking again? Let's keep this discussion limited to visual novels please.
hah? what's the point in that?
Eniko wrote:It's kinda like the older jRPGs.
I don't think I ever pade attention to the characters in those ones. They mostly just a simple background to feebly try to explain their skills. Most of them didn't even have that much personality either.
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Re: All about Main Characters!

#23 Post by Ikka »

Oh, now I see!

So, basically, simple protagonists are made to suit our personalities better, huh? Hmm... I kinda get it...

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#24 Post by x__sinister »

For stories and for games, equally, I would say it depends severely on the context in which the character exists.

If the game/story is plot-based, the main character doesn't really matter. The main character could be Joe Schmo or Billy Bob, and the story would still be the same.
If the game/story is character-based, then it really does matter. I would want to know the main character as if they really existed, with a name, birthday, likes and dislikes, etc. etc.

As for cliches... Well, cliches by themselves are boring, as Ikka said in the main post. However, I believe if the author isn't lazy and puts a spin on it, then it can be really interesting. They can use the cliche as a literary device, or irony, satire, symbolism, whatever they wanted. But, a cliche just as an 'adjective' for a character is boring.
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Re: All about Main Characters!

#25 Post by Wintermoon »

In my experience, protagonists with strong personality traits tend to be the most annoying protagonists. I'm talking about personality traits like "oblivious moron", "jerk", "lecher", "sadistic sociopath rapist". I feel insulted that I'm supposed to identify with such a character, and it lowers my opinion of the girls in the game when they fall in love with such a waste of human life. I'll take a blank slate over an unlikeable protagonist any day.

Some actual positive personality traits for the protagonist would be a nice change. I can't think of too many examples. (Generic kindness does not count. Even a total jerk can be kind to a girl while he's courting her.)

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#26 Post by Kuzlalala »

Ikka wrote: Well, aside that! I've never seen different protagonists!

Even if they are different, they'd be only a LITTLE different. That's all.
Same goes with OG heroines.
I think there's a whole bunch of protagonists who are different. As for my project itself, its main character Fras isn't the cheerful kind person.
In fact Fras is going to be a tsundere.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#27 Post by LVUER »

F.I.A wrote:
LVUER wrote:Yes, this one has been discussed over and over. Perhaps it's theoritical but well at least we tried.
Define "tried".
Ah, I'm sorry if my English is bad, after all English is not my first language (and I rarely use it in daily life). I mean "at least we have try our best despite the risk using same old theory".
F.I.A wrote:
Besides, it's just another attempt to make better games, don't let it kill your creativity.
Character creation is part of the game-making, not some extras.
??? (I don't get this one)
F.I.A wrote:
Still, even if the protagonist have their own personality and distinct "things" that make him different from us, and make harder for us to relate... the game still want to to relate with the protagonist as much as possible (while still have difference as characters).
This is roleplaying, or in other words, to be in someone's else shoes.
The topic is about "all" main characters. Not limited to role-playing. Besides, with the definition of role-playing has been bent nowadays, I see no reason to be so "fixed" to "idealized" old-terms that hard to use/define. Or even nobody know what its meaning anymore.
F.I.A wrote:
One good example is Halo. I believe I have wrote this once that Halo strong point is not the graphics or the story, rather it's presentation. Master Chief is Master Chief. But Halo manage to make us feel that it is we that do battle in that Mjolnir Armor.
What stories are we talking again? Let's keep this discussion limited to visual novels please.
Again, look at the subject of this topic. Why now we limit it to VN only?
F.I.A wrote:
BTW, your way is saying is like, hey if you can't fly, don't bother fly in jets or airplane. After all, humans life on the ground.
Extract from my last post
F.I.A wrote:Unless they are characters with a blank face, the purpose of a story is to allow us to roleplay as those we can't dream of becoming. Or to see things from their views.
??? Same here, I don't get the meaning of your reply. Please use language that understandable by common people. Your post is always hard to understand (I just never have the chance to tell this to you)
F.I.A wrote: EDIT: Meh, I am not going to bother posting in this thread again.
Well, you don't need to ^_^ No body is forcing you.

Oh, and to continue with the rest...

The first protagonist (before his personality become cliche) is the different one, right? I think some anime/game have different and interesting personality. Some example :
1. Cloud and Sephiroth (game)
2. I forget the name, but the protagonist (the girl) from Garden of the Sinners (novel/anime)
3. Shinji from Eva (who don't know this guy?). He is the first protagonist in Super Robot (not exactly super but not exactly real either) anime that shy, refuse to pilot the robot, have inferiority complex, etc.

From what I think, anime/game where the protagonist have unique/strong personality don't want you to immerse yourself to the story from 1st POV, but rather to enjoy the story and the characters.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#28 Post by pinkmouse »

x__sinister wrote:(snip)

If the game/story is plot-based, the main character doesn't really matter. The main character could be Joe Schmo or Billy Bob, and the story would still be the same.
If the game/story is character-based, then it really does matter. I would want to know the main character as if they really existed, with a name, birthday, likes and dislikes, etc. etc.
I don't find it useful to try and distinguish between "plot based" and "character based" stories. For me, it's like trying to cut a balloon in half!

All stories (it seems to me) are about people changing as the result of stress. Characters are simplified people who have been designed in such a way that they will react in an interesting fashion to the stress. The plot is a simplified stressful situation that has been designed in such a way that it pushes the characters' buttons as hard as possible. So, for me, the one is determined by the other.

Of course with this sort of chicken and egg situation, you have to start somewhere. I find I tend to start off with a character and then make the world as awkward for them as possible. That's just what works for me; making the world first and then dumping hapless victims down in the nastiest, most troubled spot (Meh-heh-heh-heh) is just as sensible. Nevertheless both approaches are dealing with the same thing: the results of relationships under stress.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#29 Post by Ramidel »

Shinji was made the way he was as a design decision in NGE. NGE tears genre conventions down, tears them apart, and examines just what it would be like to be an ordinary, vaguely nice high school everydude (with parental issues) who falls into the cockpit of an alien superweapon used to fight against Cthuloid monsters that use Christian symbolism as a metaphor for something vaguely Freudian. Frankly, Shinji just can't handle it. He breaks down over the series into a nervous wreck.

So while he sucks, he has to suck to make the series work.
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For a text or partly-text adventure game (Zork and The PK Girl come to mind), a neutral protagonist, or something close to it, work pretty well; they give you rope and let the player define the character's personality and reactions, more or less. The VN format is usually a lot more linear and circumscribed, so there's often more freedom on the designer's part to show a bit of personality on the part of the protagonist. To use Elven Relations: Ultimately, Takuya is always going to come across a DoggedNiceGuy, even if the decision between "heroic doormat" and "polite but assertive" comes out in dialogue choices. That's fine...and frankly, Takuya works best that way. Kei, meanwhile, is going to be a little different in Mermaid Liasons...I hope, Chrono!

Ultimately, the focus of any sort of romance/ren'ai game will be on the interaction between the characters, not on their personalities considered in isolation. Oftentimes, neutralizing the protagonist except as his actions and dialogue dictate is the best way to allow for that. (To be a bit crude, the other characters exist for him/her to emote at, and he's only a lecherous jerk if the player makes him be one.) Other designers give the character more personality, background and definition because that suits the needs of their story and gives them new options for emoting.

Doing the latter has pros and cons. On the con side, it requires a bit of design work on the designers' part and somewhat circumscribes the kind of dialogue options available; on the pro side, it gives the character some definition that the player can use, and some stories really can only be told with some of this ground-level definition of the character. (I defy anyone to say that you could make Hatsune from Atlach=Nacha a "neutral everygirl player-mouthpiece" and have the story still be the same. :twisted: )
Last edited by Ramidel on Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All about Main Characters!

#30 Post by Alphonse »

I personally like nice, boring characters. I can relate more to them than jerks. Maybe in the third person, I wouldn't mind a jerk protagonist, but I don't want to be stuck in a total bastard's head the whole story. Especially since, when I'm playing, I -am- that bastard. I make his choices and everything.

@Lee_Hitsugaya's response to anon:

Of course. Because making a full budget special effects sci-fi film in a popular franchise that's a household name is the exact same thing as making a low-to-no budget computer game with repetitive still images (if any) and text with an engine that you don't even have to make. The exact same thing, clearly.

He asked him to make a main character, that's all.

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