Would this be... legal?

[RedSlash]

Hey, RedSlash, I think your avatar may be violating copyright laws- you'd better keep that guy under control!

Thank you for your concern! However, since I happen to be the author of my avatar, which is original character artwork for an action RPG game I'm making, I am in perfect compliance with copyright laws.

As for the ethical issue, I would be in favour of fanarts and fanfiction although it is illegal. I think fanarts/fiction add to the value and creativity of a work (ofcourse to a certain extent though.. if you decide to turn my fav anime into some cheap porno, then I would be against that). I favour original fan artwork over work that was directly ripped off a dvd. However, if you were able to present the ripped graphics in a complete unique and creative way that would surprize me, then I would favour that too.

While I think most fanarts/fanfiction contribute to the author's work, you should keep in mind that it does not always benefit the author. There was a case with where a writer was sued by one of her fans because the fan claimed that one of the ideas in the author's book was stolen from the idea in a fanfaction that was submitted to the author. Unfortunately, the author lost the case and thus suffered losses.

[mikey]

according to the "Berne copyright convention" of 1989 states that everything created privately (after 1990) is copywritted but becasue of something called "fair use" you may use their items or complete data as long as their is no formal copyright statement and as long as you give them some sort of credit and as long as no profit is made off of it.

Also note that the Berne convention is subsidiary to state legislature, most countries have implemented the "fair use", for instance the Slovak Author's Code has explicitly mentioned cases where it's okay to use copyrighted material, but you can't really get using images in your own games to work under that (it's mostly for quoting and educational purposes). Also, in addition to that, the EU primary law is also above the convention (in EU countries). So the international documents serve only as framework.

[Guest]

according to the "Berne copyright convention" of 1989 states that everything created privately (after 1990) is copywritted but becasue of something called "fair use" you may use their items or complete data as long as their is no formal copyright statement and as long as you give them some sort of credit and as long as no profit is made off of it.

Also note that the Berne convention is subsidiary to state legislature, most countries have implemented the "fair use" in their legal system, for instance the Slovak Author's Code has explicitly mentioned cases where it's okay to use copyrighted material, but you can't really get using others' images in your own games to work under that (it's mostly for quoting and educational purposes). Also, in addition to that, the EU primary law is also above the convention (in EU countries). So the international documents serve only as framework.

[ShiraiJunichi]

RedSlash >> Oh, you drew that avatar yourself? I'm impressed. Looks really good. It looks like most people here have avatars they created themselves... seems unusual.

Use fanart? Well... one of the appealing aspects of basing it off of an anime for me is that I wouldn't have to draw the images myself... I'm not a very good artist. Though, I recently bought a tablet for my PC, and with some practice, and lots of patience, I'm managing to create my first digital anime image that looks half-way decent. We'll see how that goes.

I agree about not turning anime into cheap porno. Especially for sweet innocent anime... like "A Little Snow Fairy: Sugar". Man, if someone made a porno of that, I'd have to fight the urge not to impale their head on a pike >_<

There was a case with where a writer was sued by one of her fans because the fan claimed that one of the ideas in the author's book was stolen from the idea in a fanfaction that was submitted to the author. Unfortunately, the author lost the case and thus suffered losses.

I can't believe that a fan sued like that. Isn't the fanfic by nature illegal? Couldn't the author countersue or something? I guess it's all part of the sue happy society that we live in.

Hmm... guess that the guest just wanted to emphasize what Mikey wrote...

[papillon]

Man, if someone made a porno of that, I'd have to fight the urge not to impale their head on a pike >_<

I can almost guarantee that there either IS hentai of it or someone has ASKED for hentai of it. Not on this board, of course. But somewhere

(I don't see why there's a need to be crazy VIOLENT about it, though, I just think people who demand simpsons porn are weird and leave it at that. )

[darkknight]

And the copyright laws do not apply to public-doman sites (that was a vocab phrase on my final exam)

This is false, or at least confused. The copyright owner can place a work into the public domain, and that means that anyone can copy/use it. But this has to be explicitly done by the legitimate owner (originally, the creator) of the work.

You might be a little concerned as to what your grade on that exam will be.

i forgot to mention some things...

public domain by definition is not copywritted HA i got you on that one
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... lic+domain

if it was copywritted it would be classified as freeware or shareware

and if you were wondering i was the only one in my class with a 100 percent on the exam i will send you a picture when i get the test back...

AND furthermore all of this copywrite information is true that people have posted but that still brings me back to my point that if someone uses your character in a nonprofit game there is very little you could actually do about it. for several reasons:

A) what would you actually want to get from the lawsuit
B) the court costs and travel expenses would not really be worth it
C) there is always a possibility that the person who stole your work could always say it was there since you have no formal copywrite proof

I rest my case...thanks for reading my ranting...take good notes there will be a test

[mikey]

Maybe it will depend on the TYPE of creation you'll make. If you'd make a River Trap tribute game called "Marry Me, Akemi", I wouldn't mind at all. You won't be altering her personality or her function. Even reasonably normal fanfiction could be okay, because I see fanfiction more like an acknowledgement of a character than a violation, same applies to fan art, which is almost an honor.

But using Akemi in a game, or taking RT backgrounds, well... I can't say I would be thrilled (most of all, you'd have to deal with the wrath of a woman, since the author is Kathryn - I don't recommend that ^_^)

But I still would encourage you to make something original, you'll get much more respect, even though it won't be some stunning graphics galore title.

And if you use established anime characters, keep in mind there are people who didn't see the show and the more appealing the game will be to the fans of the anime, the more alienated will be those who don't know about it.

Plus... I think anyone here can make a good game with an original plot, world or setting. Don't believe that all good plots are already invented. I played Kykuit longer than I played Casual Romance Club (a commercial game). And I didn't like any of the characters. In Kykuit I really liked Ms.B. So ultimately, Kykuit (essentially every other game here, I really didn't like CRC) gave me more entertainment than a commercial game. I know, it's drifting off topic already...

[ShiraiJunichi]

Man, if someone made a porno of that, I'd have to fight the urge not to impale their head on a pike >_<

I can almost guarantee that there either IS hentai of it or someone has ASKED for hentai of it. Not on this board, of course. But somewhere

(I don't see why there's a need to be crazy VIOLENT about it, though, I just think people who demand simpsons porn are weird and leave it at that. )

I was just trying to express my severe disapproval- I wouldn't actually have any inclination to get violent. More than likely, all I'd do is shake my head in unbelief. While I don't watch H material myself, I respect others rights to enjoy it, if they so choose. However, when someone takes something sweet and innocent, such as "Little Snow Fairy: Sugar" and turns it into cheap adult content, I feel that the innocense of what I enjoy becomes tainted in a way. I'm not saying my feelings should influence others actions; just that it's unfortunate for me that that's how things are sometimes... However, I think the feelings of the copyright holder are definitely important, and I highly doubt someone who created something sweet, meaningful, and wholesome would condone it being turned into cheap, meaningless pornography.

You have some good points Mikey. My art seems to be coming along half way decently, so I think I will make my own original work. Derivative works and original works each have their appeal, but I think for my debut, it would be best to do something original. Perhaps later I'll play with something based off existing work

[RedSlash]

I second the opinion of making an original work. Go for it!

Don't forget, there are some artists that'll draw for you for free lurking around on this board. Make good use of them (before MMZ gets to them).

[ShiraiJunichi]

Thanks for the enthusiasm, RedSlash. I have officially decided to make an original work. I asked a friend who can draw really well to do all my character art. That should save me a lot of time, as well as give me superior graphics. I'd like to be able to have anime style backgrounds too... but I doubt anyone would really be interested in taking on that kind of work- not much glory, plus I don't think it's what people normally practice... If I can't get anime backgrounds, I guess that's ok, but if that's the case, I'll really be in trouble if Blue Lemma doesn't re upload all of those photos he had >_<

I currently have quite a bit of free time, and I'm really motivated to make the game I have in mind. I expect it should be complete in not too long- can't really say, because I've never done this before... but I think I could finish this within a month. Would anyone be interested in visiting an HTML page about it as a little preview?

[mikey]

Would anyone be interested in visiting an HTML page about it as a little preview?

Sure. Although I am more and more finding that the greatest challenge a developer will have is fighting against his urge of sharing his vision with friends.

It takes strong will to just release something out of the blue, and I recall PyTom posting something about the completed projects being built by compact one-leader teams... But I also noticed something else - most of the completed releases had very little time from announcement to release (read: the game was almost complete when announced). Take Black Pencil, River Trap (10 days), Kasuka, Kaori (both announced and released instantly), Sango as well... then there's Milk Swim (1 day), Moonlight Walks (0 days), Amgine Park (around 3 days). NaNoRenO is an exception, but Heikou also came without warning.

Contrary to that, take FoxTrot, ToZ etc...

Just saying.

[PyTom]

Take Black Pencil, River Trap (10 days), Kasuka, Kaori (both announced and released instantly), Sango as well... then there's Milk Swim (1 day), Moonlight Walks (0 days), Amgine Park (around 3 days). NaNoRenO is an exception, but Heikou also came without warning

I seem to recall announcing that I was working on a one-month-long game before the MW announcement. I do know that I asked for some help with background images beforehand, although I was careful to not release any details about a game.

My gut feeling is there may be some sort of selection effect going on here. Let's say that we have two independent variables: If a game is announced way in advance, and if a game gets done. For the games that are announced in advance, we'll hear about the announcement and therefore know that the project failed, while in the case where it is not announced we'll never know that there was a project in the first place. So it will seem like more announced projects fail from an outsider's POV.

(The above analysis brought to you by the old GRE's analytical section. Essays have nothing on being able to reason )

That being said, I think it's somewhat cruel to announce the details of a game, and then not finish it. So I'd reccomend delaying announcement until a complete draft of the script is finished. My gut feeling (which I'd love to here what others think about) is that once a full-length draft exists, the game is real enough that it's probably going to be finished. Artists can be recruited and/or replaced, backgrounds can be made with photos, and music can be omitted. But without a script, the game isn't.

[ShiraiJunichi]

I think it's somewhat cruel to announce the details of a game, and then not finish it. So I'd reccomend delaying announcement until a complete draft of the script is finished

True, very true. It's not very nice to waste someone's time and anticipation with something that will never be. So I'll postpone any announcements until I'm almost finished

[mikey]

I will agree, that there are failed projects, or abandoned efforts that we never hear about. But I would still technically count them as not failures, since no one knows about them. I'm sure almost everyone has several projects on their minds, but if you don't announce it, no one gets hurt. As to saying that one is working on something, or needs some help with images, I don't necessarily consider it an announcement. I think a new thread with the name of the game, say [Days Of Sakura - work in progress] is one.

My gut feeling (which I'd love to here what others think about) is that once a full-length draft exists, the game is real enough that it's probably going to be finished.

well... I think if you mean Ren'Py script, then it's more or less true. I personally always determine the point at which I am confident as the one when there's no more creative, but only mechanical work to do. This means no more characters to draw, no more editing of the script, just the work of inserting and testing and spellchecking and so on. You can't use the creator's block as an excuse anymore.

Of course, if you lack discipline even 99% can't be a guarantee.

This said however, I think a person should learn from his own experiences. I usually point out more or less the same things when I see an announcement which I feel could fall into such category, but I think you can never substitute your own experiences, even if it's a failrure. For me, River Trap was almost a failure and I barely made it. I've learned from that, quite a lot, and now I do things differently.

[ShiraiJunichi]

In general, it's okay to reimplement something like a program, or tell a similar story, as long as you don't copy the text, or use the same characters and/or setting. This is called the idea-expression divide, and it says that while it's okay to use the ideas in a story, it's not okay to retell the same story.

Would it be considered legal to listen to some music someone else made, and then create a midi file out of it? To me, that sounds like "tell[ing] a similar story". You listen to the music, and then tell it again in Midi format. The midi file was created solely by you, though you were inspired by the original music. It's ok to be inspired by stuff, right?
Though, I can see how it could be considered copying. If a program was used to automate the process, then I would see it as copying, with degrading quality. But if it's done by hand, it seems different...