OELVN - the rationale behind the name

[Voight-Kampff]

I've been pondering about this question for a while - and vacillating back and forth as to whether or not I should make a post about it. I suspect it has the potential to be perceived as flamebait. But believe me, I have zero intention of making any waves here. I'm just honestly curious.

That being said - Why is the OELVN community so keen on, well...adopting the term OEL?

In my mind, OEL has a number of negative connotations thanks to a certain Los Angeles based manga publisher. I worry that by attaching the term to our work, we're instantly handicapping ourselves in the minds of potential readers. What I'm concerned about is the following mentality:

Oh. It's an "OEL" project? Bah. It's just made by weeaboo Americans. I'm not going to bother.

Furthermore, as I recall, OEL was the compromise that "OEL manga" had to make - since audiences were rejecting the fact that Americans were calling their work just plain old "manga". Manga is the Japanese term for comics. Ergo, non-Japanese supposedly couldn't use it. So, Original English Language Manga was used in it's stead.

But with VNs, there is no such issue. Yes, the term was coined by the Japanese. But the fact remains, the term is English. It's a Visual Novel - the phrase describes exactly what it is. Why instantly alert people to the fact that our work is not QUITE the same thing as a Visual Novel? Why plant that bias in their mind right from the start?

I'd consider it akin to writing a book. If an English-speaking person is writing a book, they say, "I'm writing a book" - they don't say, "I'm writing an Original English Language book". That goes without saying.

Again, I don't mean to inflame. It's just that I have concerns about using the term. If someone has a rationale that can explain why using the term OEL is a great idea, I would very much like to hear it.

[JinzouTamashii]

I'm just going to copypasta something I wrote a while back:

I think that racism in either country is very ugly—it is something I am ashamed to have witnessed and experienced personally. Patriotism does not mean blindly accepting prejudice and it doesn't mean believing that all foreigners are intruders.

The opposite attitude—"it's better because it's Japanese"—is also a ridiculously elitist attitude. Anime is a style—not a way of life. Everything in moderation.

[@berration]

I've already posted my thoughts on the subject back here:

http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 348#p81348

The "OEL manga" category was created in an attempt to placate people who felt that calling any comics that weren't made in Japan, by Japanese people, for a Japanese audience, "manga" was wrong...as well as to have a more descriptive term for comics that were manga-influenced (in art style, layout, pacing, etc.), since the term "comics" also brought up imagery of comic strips, comic books, superhero comics and graphic novels, which "OEL manga" differed from.

(Of course, no real consensus was ever reached, since you'll always find people who take offense to the word "manga" being used—period. Thus you'll often just see it referred to simply as "OEL," though the acronym makes little sense on its own. And of course, there are artists with Japanese influences making comics in languages other than English, giving rise to terms like "global manga" and "world manga," which didn't exactly catch on. But I'm digressing...)

In the case of visual novels, it's a very unique medium that has no direct, yet significantly-different English-language equivalent, so I really see little need in making that distinction at this point.

My impression is that the term "OELVN" feels like it's saying, "Here, this is something that's trying to be a visual novel." By the definitions I've seen, it isn't trying to be a visual novel, it is one.

[Voight-Kampff]

My impression is that the term "OELVN" feels like it's saying, "Here, this is something that's trying to be a visual novel." By the definitions I've seen, it isn't trying to be a visual novel, it is one.

Interesting. Wiki actually points out Ren'Py - yet it makes no distinction for anything termed "OELVN".

Hmm. In fact, searching for the term on Wiki just turns up "Did you mean: OEL".

Which goes back to my point about books. All people - everywhere - write books. The term book is somewhat generic. But it describes succinctly what a person is working on. I think it should be the same for Visual Novel. The term is somewhat generic. But it also describes what a person is working on in the same way the term "book" does.

[papillon]

Why is the OELVN community so keen on, well...adopting the term OEL?

Well, if you're pre-defining the community as the people who use that term to begin with, you've answered your own question?

Endless wars have raged over 'hentai' vs 'h' vs 'ecchi' vs 'bishoujo', 'visual novel' vs 'dating sim', what's truly ren'ai... I can guarantee you there's many people here who don't give a toss about the term 'OELVN' (not to mention there are people here writing VNs in languages other than English)

[PyTom]

I have, as of late, been using the term "EVN" as an abbreviation for English-language visual novel, in places such as Planet EVN. IMO, the term covers games produced in English, and first-party translations by the original creator.

[Voight-Kampff]

I have, as of late, been using the term "EVN" as an abbreviation for English-language visual novel, in places such as Planet EVN. IMO, the term covers games produced in English, and first-party translations by the original creator.

Hmm. Well, I DEFINITELY like that term better. At the very least, it doesn't bring any baggage with it from the past. However, it still doesn't negate the issue: why point out that our work is different from a "Visual Novel" in the first place?

I can understand the need for differentiation from the community's standpoint. But, I dunno...I guess I just have a mental hang-up on planting that bias in readers' minds from the get-go, particularly if there's no need to.

I guess I'm thinking about in these terms: Person X browses the web. He stumbles across the dev blog for Katawa Shoujo. He reads the blog, which is entirely written in English. He downloads the demo. It's completely in English (okay, and Italian). Is there any reason for the Katawa Shoujo folks to plaster "OELVN" or "EVN" on their site? All they have to do is say that they're making a Visual Novel. If people don't know what a Visual Novel is, they can go to Wikipedia and read about it.

[papillon]

Is there any reason for the Katawa Shoujo folks to plaster "OELVN" or "EVN" on their site?

... I don't see the term 'OELVN' existing anywhere on the devblog.

*checks*

I don't see it on their website either. The 'about' text DOES describe it simply as 'a visual novel'.

Where are you getting the idea that everyone is shouting OELVN from the rooftops?

[@berration]

I think EVN is fine in context:

"I'm going to create a webpage with a list of all known English-language visual novels."

That makes perfect sense, as that's where the distinction is important: These are visual novels that can be read in English, regardless of where they came from.

Like VK, I'm probably more bothered by the creators who choose to use the OELVN term when there's no real need for the distinction:

"I'm going to write an original English-language visual novel."

I doubt a Japanese creator would tell people, "I'm going to do a Japanese-language visual novel." Yes, yes, I understand that the vast majority of VNs are created in Japanese, in Japan...but I don't understand why some English-speaking creators feel the need to specify that their creation won't be in Japanese. Unless you're bi-/multi-lingual, and there's a chance you'll be creating a visual novel in a language other than your own (or, in this case, the one you're announcing it in), it should be pretty obvious what language your VN is in.

Seems to me like the problem is really just the people who are adopting the OEL term unnecessarily, while not really understanding the reason it had to be created. Regardless of what the acronym literally stands for, essentially "OEL" isn't about the language. OEL pretty much means "This creation doesn't fit with the category of the Japanese medium, nor the corresponding medium of the creator's country of origin." Or something along those lines. For OEL manga, it was created to say, "Yes, we understand this isn't accepted as 'manga,' but its influences keep it from fitting in with 'comics' as well."

[Vatina]

Well, I think the term quite naturally stuck from the beginning when there were hardly any VN's in english at all, so when you said "OELVN", you knew people were creating something that you could actually read. And in that regard, people plastered it on their games as something positive. And the tradition continues, even if it might not be that special any more...

At least that's what I think.

[Tsundere Lightning]

There are definite bad connotations: ask anyone on Slashdot or 4chan or Something Awful about "Ren'Py QUALITY" sometime. I prefer EVN for this reason.

OELVN as a distinction is a rather seductive mental trap.

[Voight-Kampff]

Is there any reason for the Katawa Shoujo folks to plaster "OELVN" or "EVN" on their site?

... I don't see the term 'OELVN' existing anywhere on the devblog.

*checks*

I don't see it on their website either. The 'about' text DOES describe it simply as 'a visual novel'.

Where are you getting the idea that everyone is shouting OELVN from the rooftops?

I'm sorry. I should have phrased my example better. I meant to hold up KS as an example of what TO do - there is no reason for them to label themselves as OELVN or EVN. And you're absolutely right. Nowhere on their dev blog or website do they use the term "OEL". Not that I've found, anyway.

As for where I'm seeing the term? Well, there's a sticky-post in this very forum titled "OELVN Community Wiki". There's about 14,000 hits on Google when you type the term in. Over 300 instances of "OELVN" when you search LSF. And in regards to some of the more recent blogs I've visited, there are these that make conspicuous use of the term:

http://studiomugenjohncel.wordpress.com/
http://cherylitou.wordpress.com/

[papillon]

I know *some* people use it - I'm just pointing out that it's really not universal, much like a lot of the other terminology that goes around about this stuff. I can find you plenty of people who've played the games and wouldn't even know what OELVN meant.

It's not really a question of why the community as a whole embraces the term, it's why do individuals do it, and their reasons are probably varied.

Well, there's a sticky-post in this very forum titled "OELVN Community Wiki".

And within the first few posts of that topic there's "What does OELVN mean?" and "Why are we calling it that?" Definitely not consensus.

[PyTom]

That the wiki still says OELVN is largely historical, I just haven't gotten around to changing it.

I will note, however, that people will mock Ren'Py games regardless of what we do. 90% of Ren'Py games are crap. That's okay, because 90% of everything is crap. (Also, I'd imagine the 10% varies from person to person.)

[Samu-kun]

Well, I've never actually used either OELVN or EVN (aside from referring to the Planet) that I can recall. Visual novels in Japan generally tend to be better because some of them are produced with incredible budgets and are priced at $100 each, while the stuff we produce here have budgets of whatever amount of spare cash we have in our wallets at the time and are generally distributed for free. If people want better visual novels in English, then they should be more willing to pay closer to the amount of money that Japanese visual novels sell for...

As for doujinshi, there are simply just thousands of times more people producing it in Japan, while there are generally less than 30 English language projects actively being pursued at any given time, so it couldn't be helped that there is a lack of good games in English. Not to mention that doujin games themselves have pretty impressive budgets and sell for more money in Japan. Why don't you just start your own project if you have complaints...?